U.S. to expand military force in Iraq

“http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_military

The U.S. is getting ready to send another 12,000 troops to Iraq. This will raise the amout of soldiers we have to 150,000.

The extra men are being sent because of the elections coming up. They want to beef up security.
"The 12,000-troop increase is to last only until March, but it says much about the strength and resiliency of an insurgency that U.S. military planners did not foresee when Baghdad was toppled in April 2003."

Glad to see we were so well informed about everything over there. It just keeps getting deeper and deeper :(”

“People scoff at the Vietnam analogy. Escalation was not talked about or anticipated back then either.




That didn't stop it from happening, though...”

“I'm stunned...

absolutely stunned.”

“In hind site, we should have postponed our election and let them go first.”

“The problem with Iraq is we didn't turn it into rubble like we did with Germany and Japan. The Germans and Japanese didn't have a country to fight for after we got through with them.

You have to break the country's back so you can rebuild it.

Just my opinion.




I know nobody cares....





and I'm OK with that.







I think.









ah f*ck it!”

“Germany and Japan were actual threats to the U.S.

Turning Iraq into rubble would be a crime.

Don't some who favor this war claim that "we" are liberating Iraq?

A Johns Hopkins study has revealed that over 100,000 civilians have been killed thus far, liberated from this world.”

“Law and Order was interesting last night. In the episode it talked about how Afghanistan now supplies about 3/4's of the worlds herion.”

“Yes and now Afgahanistan has a leader that was elected by his countrymen and women and he said almost first thing that his main priority was cleaning up the poppy fields.”

“The U.S. declared it's own "war on drugs" a long time ago. Has that been won? Rhetoric is great, but results speak louder...


As of now, law enforcement officials are finding more "meth labs" than ever, for instance.
last edited: 12/02/04 7:39:29 AM”

“Well that's good news then. I had no idea about any of it, don't really keep up with the drug trade.”

“And furthermore, Afgahanistan has always been the world's biggest exporter of Opium and Heroine. That doesn't have anything to do with us. ;)”

“Just drawing a parallel between rhetoric and action, Sass. Politicos speak a lot of things. But, when you have a trade that is as lucrative as the drug trade, especially in a cash strapped country, I have my doubts that it will be as easy (or successful) as he may make it sound...
last edited: 12/02/04 7:46:05 AM”

“I'm glad what's-his-name is going to clean up the poppy fields, they can't have dirty poppy fields.”

“Christ on crutches. Ya bltch and complain saying Rummies screwing the pooch for not sending in enough troops and then ya all bltch cause he's sending in more.

There's just no pleasing some people.”

“This situation has been screwed up so bad from the beginning. How do you expect "some people" to react? Timing has a lot to do with it, too. And why does Christ need crutches?”

“You're right Treebeard they shouldn't even try. ;) It probably won't make any difference anyways.

But really I hadn't even seen your post and was still responding to the idea that things were worse in Afgahanistan since we've "liberated" them. IMO, from my perspective, the fact that females can receive an education and vote is worth more than we can fathom. Of course things will be alittle rough there for awhile, they were in a war, the countries been torn up there was no government!”

“A Johns Hopkins study has revealed that over 100,000 civilians have been killed thus far, liberated from this world.”

MarkO
7:26:28 AM
12/02/04

Before the study, which was a simply a survey, the number was like 19,000. It jumps to 100,000 and no one questions the data?”

“Nigal, I think most people are saying enough is enough. Whether you like it or not I really believe this will be another Vietnam. The U.S. will not come out the winner on this.

We have lost more men since we toppled Baghdad last yr. Doesn't sound like they are giving up as easy as our leaders thought. IMO it is more about hating the U.S. now than Hussein or his cronies being the leader”

“How many soldiers total Ewker?”

“"How do you expect "some people" to react?"

Consistently would be a good start.”

“"Before the study, which was a simply a survey, the number was like 19,000. It jumps to 100,000 and no one questions the data?”
bbw
7:55:19 AM
12/02/04

You should read about this survey.

It was conducted by a medical institution.
They interviewed civilians about their losses.
The U.S. government used statistics from morgues and hospitals only.
Many Iraqis buried their own dead as per religious requirements, etc.
The U.S. government didn't bother to look further.

It was the Hopkins survey that questioned the "data".”

“I'm not saying don't try. I would think it would be a more admirable goal to legitimize their economy than to run a corrupt regime that thrives on the drug trade. Don't get me wrong. But, I can be a real skeptic sometimes...

I wholeheartedly supported the invasion of Afghanistan. It had to be done at the time and would have been done no matter who was in the White House. I feel that the way it was handled was not a political blunder, but a military one, in that we didn't get bin Laden and didn't join ground forces with the Northern Alliance. I just hope that the Taliban isn't able to rebuild eventually an make this all for naught over there.
last edited: 12/02/04 8:03:47 AM”

“Nigal, I have been consistantly opposed to this war.

Sass, they are bumping the number up to 150,000.

Though I am opposed to this war, the fact is that 150,000 is still not enough.

"We" can't just leave now, Dubya's mess must be rectified.”

“Germany and Japan were actual threats to the U.S.

MarkO
7:26:28 AM
12/02/04

Actually neither were threats to the US until US foreign policy had US ships running a German blockade to supply weapons to England, who had been at war with Germany for 2 years, and of course a blockade of oil into Japan which is 100% reliant on imported oil.
Roosevelt put an embargo on a country with a huge military and then gave them first strike, sort of like going into a biker bar and spitting into the beer of the biggest guy there and expect nothing to happen.
9/11 has a lot of parallels with Pearl Harbor, but perhaps Bush should have waited until Iraq actually attacked Saudi and destroyed the oil supply the US relies on for imports.”

“I find it impossible to believe that the military planners did not expect an insurgency.

The fact that they did not air those concerns to the public does not suprise me no matter the administration.”

“No Mark, you have been consistently against anything we do. Like the old joke says, “If Bush walked on water you’d bltch cause he can’t swim.”. This type of behavior only comes off looking petty and makes one look like spoiled child.

This is the same type of “Anything but Bush” behavior that lead America to reject Kerry.”

“Objection, yer honor!

Speculation!!

"Objection sustained"”

“Sass, go to this link. It has the casualties listed by month. I am still looking for the total number.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/2004.11.html”

“Wrong, Nigal!

You are not paying attention......try Ritalyn.

I am consistantly against fascism and anti-democratic action and reactionary policy.”

“LMFAO@Marxo”

“Jees Mark, you are the single greatest example that liberalism is more of a mental illness than a political view. The angry liberal schtik just doesn't work on me.

Why do you hate America so much?”

“Rabbit, time to check under your bed for commies.......don't forget the woodshed.”

“"Why do you hate America so much?”
Nigal
8:15:20 AM
12/02/04

You really are a stupid mofo......Buddha Bear was right.”

“Haha! Hey phucktard, if I am confronted by such an ignorant and stupid comment as “I am consistently against fascism and anti-democratic action and reactionary policy.” it tends to make me try to break things down into equally stupid terms in hopes that you will understand better. You actually painted US as the fascist, undemocratic and reactionary ones here. Why are you so against 25,000 people being freed, women having equal rights, rape rooms closed, torture chambers closed, the filling of mass graves ended, Uday dead, Kusay dead, Saddam in jail?

If you can actually look at the Iraqi regime and our efforts to stop them and then call US the fascist and undemocratic ones then you are dumber than I ever thought you capable of. I know you old potheads pine for the days of the 60s and all the hippy marches because dissent is ‘cool’ but ya shouldn’t get so worked up when reasonable people call you on your idiotic views.”

“Not speculation MarkO - History.

Of course continued inaction by the US may have caused them to become threats later but your argument is all about taking no action until they strike first.

Running blockades to supply weapons is an act of war.

Placing a blockade to enforce an embargo imposed ONLY by you is also an act of war.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n2p25_Bishop.html

a little light reading may help you.
or you can do your own research try google with keywords 'japan', 'roosevelt', 'embargo'
and select your own reading from the 17,900 links.”

“There is of course a human element to 'turning Iraq into rubble'. It's not all buildings and bridges. If you have the stomach (and are over 18) you might want to look for yourself: http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/”

“Thanks manuka, I'll get right on it.
It really is history though, all we can do is argue about it.
The present war is what I'm concerned about.

"You actually painted US as the fascist, undemocratic and reactionary ones here. Why are you so against 25,000 people being freed, women having equal rights, rape rooms closed, torture chambers closed, the filling of mass graves ended, Uday dead, Kusay dead, Saddam in jail?"

I did not paint the U.S. as fascist, just people like you who support fascism.

You are a nasty person for suggesting that I would support Hussein and Company's actions.

"I know you old potheads pine for the days of the 60s and all the hippy marches because dissent is ‘cool’ but ya shouldn’t get so worked up when reasonable people call you on your idiotic views."

Dissent is not "cool", it is the duty of citizens of good conscience.

You are right about me being an idiot.......for arguing with a brick like you.”

“"You are a nasty person for suggesting that I would support Hussein and Company's actions."

Why do you only rail on about the evils of the USA and not Iraq's then? Why do I never hear you speaking out about ANYTHING besides republicans and businesses? Why do I never read ANYHTING positive from you about ANYTHING the USA does? Why do I only ever read about the bad side of USA in your posts?

You hate America, admit it.”

“Nigal, if he posted nothing but good stuff then you wouldn't argue with him ;)”

“http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20041202/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush

Bush is adamant that the elections be held Jan 30th. He is even "rejecting calls from more than a dozen political parties there to postpone them until security at the polls can be ensured."

Now he isn't even listening to the people who live there.”

“You should read about this survey.

It was conducted by a medical institution.
They interviewed civilians about their losses.
The U.S. government used statistics from morgues and hospitals only.
Many Iraqis buried their own dead as per religious requirements, etc.
The U.S. government didn't bother to look further.

It was the Hopkins survey that questioned the "data".”

MarkO
8:00:34 AM
12/02/04

I don't think so. The 100,000 figure came from a survey of 988 people.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/”

“Nigal, I don't hate America and I don't claim that you hate America either.

The positives in America are not a problem, the negatives are.

If your roof leaks would you ignore it while praising you windows for being so pretty?

America should be a just and sustainable place.
In some ways it is not.

Shove it, dittohead 8^P

bbw, I have not read the Lancet report, only the news stories about it.
I was not aware that it was a projected figure(100,000).
Thank you

Ewker, that's what I'm talkin' about!
last edited: 12/02/04 11:28:34 AM”

“Keep in mind that the 'civilian' deaths include iraqi policemen and non-uniformed fighters killed by either side.”

“bbw
That is something to be considered.

The number of people killed in their homes is rather disturbing though and casts an unfavorable light on the U.S. military.”

“is nigal replacing bacpac as the archie bunker of trailtalk?”

“After reading through this thread I can see why a growing number have left this high schoolish forum to resume their adult life.

What initiates as comments and discussion on the increase in troop levels in Iraq has devolved into unnecessary personal attacks and diversionary discussions of nonsense.

Nigal.......your comments on MarkO here are dispicable and cowardly. I'm not going to take the time to copy them and argue with you. You claim to be a person of some sort of faith...act it. I know him as a good man who loves his country and family. To sit here and read that crap is just too much. Find your manhood and apologize. If not......shame on you....you coward. You have no idea who you trash. I may not agree with him on many issues, but I'll be G_d damned if I'll sit still for your nasty mean-spirited attacks.

Manuka, aka New Zealand Tea Tree Flower boy.

You continue with your internet know-it-all, preener, bore act. Germany and Japan were not a danger to the US? For some reason, that I'm sure only your therapist knows, you feel the need to show everyone you are right, albeit on simple technical points. Your argument is boring, nonsensical and pointless.”

“Unfortuantely civilians die in war. Imagine how we would have fought WWII if civilians were an issue, remeber dresden or hiroshima or nagaski. We killed more people in a few minutes then this entire war. I am not saying that either is good or bad, I am adding a historical context. What makes war so horrific isnt the soldiers dying, its their job. Its dead civilians. Unfortunatley in war there will always be dead civilains. I also think the US has done a fairly good job under the circumstances in attempting to limit civilian deaths. We announce invasions for days in advance to allow civilians out, we no longer carpet bomb. Ramping up troop levels before an election especially the first democratic one really ought not be a shock.


I am just curious, how long should a war take, a week a month a year? How many deaths are exceptable? Both Civilian and soldiers.I think many people watch too many war movies and think that war is like TV, quick and painless with lots of heroes in the end. Wars take years. The advent of the "dirty little wars" that are so en vogue are a recent phenomenom...since Vietnam. Its a real shocker to a public that is accustomed to 3 week wars to actually be in a "real" war again. There is no doubt in my mind that we can win this war militarily. Its the homefront war we will lose. The lack of committment here and lack of support. That'll undercut our military every time.

War is an art, not a science. There are too many variables to lay out a timeline. We can plan and plan but must not forget we didnt ask the enemy to play by our schedule. They'll fight like their lives depends on it, cause it does. All we have to do is be more patient and be willing to win.

I personally think taht once this is over we should just auction our planes and bombs or make em into cookpots. We need out of the war fighting business, we dont have the stomach or backbone to do it. We are too complacent,spoiled and lazy. We are like rome beginning its decline, decadent. So we should jsut make the transition painless and quit when we are finished.”

“There is no doubt in my mind that we can win this war militarily.
birch
7:43:14 PM
12/02/04

Birch, they felt that way about Vietnam also. Problem is the same as it was back then. You don't know who your enemy is. The current adminstration said they weren't prepared for the resistance that they would get from the insurgents. Read what I had quotation marks around on the very first post.

War is war, in Vietnam we played by the rules and the Vietcong didn't. Who is there today..not us. In Iraq we are playing by the rules again, the insurgents aren't. who will be there in the future, I don't know

If you going to win a war you must fight it with NO RULES, that is the only way to win.

The US has to defend itself first and foremost. We have been brought into to many wars that we didn't need to be in. We cannot keep policeing the world. It has to stop somewhere.”

“Ewker, I think you are arguing my point. We can win it if we chose to and fight accordingly (you used the phrase "no rules"). It'll be a matter of will, whomevers is stronger will win. I predict it wont be us. No because we cant rather because we wont. We fight wars on the TV and in public opinion. Generals arent allowed to act as soldiers but must act as politicians.

Every tough war and difficulty conflict isnt Vietnam. I know it was a touchstone for many but to fall back on that argument is to oversimplify this war. It isnt Vietnam.”

“"Nigal.......your comments on MarkO here are dispicable and cowardly. I'm not going to take the time to copy them and argue with you. You claim to be a person of some sort of faith...act it. I know him as a good man who loves his country and family. To sit here and read that crap is just too much. Find your manhood and apologize. If not......shame on you....you coward. You have no idea who you trash. I may not agree with him on many issues, but I'll be G_d damned if I'll sit still for your nasty mean-spirited attacks."

See Jo, this why I never use trolls. It’s much more effective to use my actual handle as is evidenced here. It was an obvious troll. Apologize to MarkO? Phuck no. He never has a kind word for me and is equally cowardly with his inflammatory spewage whenever he gets a chance. He is a classic one liner who takes every opportunity to insult those who do not agree with him. He never posts with substance or proof. I was just showing him how it is to be on the other end of that stick. I love it when people like MarkO and Phead and Violin who give no one any respect cry and whine when they get no respect back. He’ll get an apology from me right after he eats the peanuts out of my shlt.

Two things keep me from going any further though, One: It’s Friday! And two: I come to realize that dealing with MarkO and his kind here is as rewarding and satisfying as passing a medicine ball with Steven Hawking.”