Scouts lost and later found in Sipsey

“I sort of agree, but won't Wilderness regs prevent all of that?
dayhiker

No more than whats prevented now. However, I'm certainly not an expert with Wilderness regs. Yeah, I would agree about the Pinhoti. I hiked it once and all I could think about was coming back to turkey hunt and hoping that one day it will tie into another trail to give it some personality.”

“It's basically tied into the GA border now. There are folks that want Cheaha to become the southern terminus for the AT. I don't see that happening.

Maybe when it's totally finished the trail folks will get the bug to check out Sipsey however I suspect Jericho will be next. There aren't the Wilderness regs to contend with up there. The guy I talked to at the state said that it would support up to 50 miles of trails.

I'd actually like to see the non-trail canyons in the Sipsey left alone. There are tons of Indian artifacts in those canyons. It'd be nice if it stayed that way. As it stands, if you want to explore you can. Those that are willing to go that far off trail aren't as likely to be the type you have to worry about screwing it up....with the exception of the Indian pot hunters. Those guys screw it up for everyone.”

“Nah, then they'll be all wrapped in stretching the trail south to link up to the Florida Trail. You can't link the Sipsey to any national trail, so it will continue to be ignored.”

“You may be right bit.

Somehow the Sipsey does need to be managed though. You show up and there are 30 cars in a lot built for 10 (Thompson Ck comes to mind). I like the idea of dictating where bigger groups camp. If you're over 15 ppl then you camp here, here, here, or here. The other thing I'd like to see is a ban in camping inside east bee branch. That gets way over used as it is. I've never camped in that canyon, nor will I.”

“Oh yes, East Bee Branch is way over-impacted. The irony is that there is a perfectly good campsite at the top of the canyon.

I've always meant to do more exploring of the Sipsey and just never gotten around to it.”

“Those that are willing to go that far off trail aren't as likely to be the type you have to worry about screwing it up....with the exception of the Indian pot hunters. Those guys screw it up for everyone.

Personnally, I look at that a bit different. I hope a foundation or society or university would get artifacts out because if there's "gold" to be found it will not remain in the ground and what good does it do anyone. A friend of mine owns property on one of the largest Indian artifact finds in Alabama. 20+ years later they still have to patrol their land for artifact hunters.”

“I think the WA regs prohibit removing the artifacts, even to protect them. Stupid, stupid, stupid.”

“The thing that bothered me last time I was there was a fire had been built about 10 feet from the big tree. How stupid is that?”

“Pretty stupid. Did you break up the fire ring? Or was there even one?”

“bit - you're correct about the campsite. That's where we camped thefirst TT trip I took there.

th - interesting. This is why the locals have to be so cloak and dagger about what's out there. Idiots will go and get it. What a shame. bit is correct on the artifacts though.

The Wilderness regs are a blessing and a curse.

Arky - what idiots. Welcome to Alabama.”

“No ring Bit. I think it was before the leaves fell. It was partially covered so we left it alone instead of stirring it up.”

“the big tree is so awesome.......”

“First of all - The scouts that were on that trip owe the blame to the "leader". Being familiar with a place enough to take a group of young kids means more than being able to read trail markers. It is eaiser for him to blame hurricane ivan than to accept the fact that he was not competent enough to take them them there in the first place. If a person takes responsibility for other people he owes it to them to be proficient in his task. As HPM said there should have been at least two adults. At least he was prepared to spend an extra night. What would have been the outcome if he had been injured. As most of you know I am a ScoutMaster myself so I'll get off this soapbox and onto another one.
Trail in the Sipsey - This is a wilderness area. Period. If you want a walk in the park stay in the park. There are trails and picnic tables and little charcoal grills to cook hotdogs on. The rest of the area should be as little trails as possible. There are trails that will get you across the area to just about anywhere you want to go. They follow old indian trade routes. Most of them will intersect the high town path if followed long enough. These trails allow people to get out into the wilderness area but don't expect them to have a sign "indian shelter 1/4 mile". I have been going into the Sipsey for at least 35 years. When I was a kid I could go to the indian shelters and they were prettly much left as the had been for years. After the trails were cut people started digging up burial sites and removing artifacts. I know where a sundisk in a tree stood for years until someone cut it out. I have removed trash from gravesites. I have replaced stones that were pilled in a perticular way. I have saw carvings and paintings destroyed. Lets put this in perspective. If you buried your child, would you want the casket to be removed along with her bones to be displayed in some museum. The damage that has been done is the primary reason locals like myself wont tell where the prime areas of the forest are. You say why do I keep this to myself - I don't, but someone has to earn my respect before I'll take them to the good stuff. It wont be on a paved trail with call buttons ever so often either. O.K. I'll step off of my soapbox.

BAMA

BAMA”

“Amen Bama...i guess the sipsey seems almost like tame wilderness to me...an old love..but an old gentle one.
I guess what alot of folks are suggesting is controling it like the south cumberland tn state parks. well defined trails, site camping only, protected partking, and rangers on site like tour guides. The freedom you lose, you gain back as more carefull protecting and caregiving of "sites" and areas.
DOn't see much off trail and tons of campsites and rings there..cause they are prohibited. Kinda feels like overburdening control to start with, but i'll take it if it makes what i love survive in it's natural state”

“It seems that National Wilderness areas (contained in National Forests, Parks, etc) do not use any kind of artificial trail markers, such as blazes, discs, etc. Rock cairns are ok, though.

One exception to this is the AT, which continues to be blazed in its traditional white even through the National Parks and Forests it traverses.

In the wildernesses of the Adirondack and Catskill Parks of New York, the rangers nail red, yellow, or blue reflective plastic discs to the trees/rocks along the trail, elsewhere in NY, trails are blazed with standard painted blazing. I'm not sure why the rangers insist on nailing discs as opposed to painting blazes...”

“Out here in Southern Calfironia and the Southern Sierra Nevada Mtns there are plenty of blazes marking trails in federal wilderness areas. Most are simple square cuts in the outer layer of pine trees.

Don't know about east coast scouts, but the ones here on the west coast seem obsessed with putting up ducks on all trails, even heavily traveled and well maintained trails.”

“Bama - glad you saw the thread. I intended to email you about it before I left work last night, but forgot.

I'm so thankful that it's about 12 miles roundtrip to the Big Tree unless you know the shortcuts that don't show up as trails on the map. I'm also thankful that Borden Ck is where it is. It creates a nice dam to bubba traffic. It's 1/2 mile in and is a wet crossing. Think of all the extra trash and crap that would be at Falls Creek Falls otherwise.

The things worth seeing close to the parking lots are off trail. Yippee. I still need to check out Turkey Foot Falls. Maybe when I'm in Hamilton over New Years.”

“I can't fault the guy for getting lost.
I've missed very obvious trail signs and got turned around in very poor conditions with kids in tow before. It happens and it is not an indictment as to competency, just your lack of awareness at the time.

There go I but for the grace of God.(and hopefully the judicious application of common sense and keeping my damn eyes open)

Where exactly in the article did anyone see the guy didn't have a map and compass and know how how to use them? What telepathic power do you have that tells you that after they screwed up that he didn't use a map and compass to pinpoint their position and determine that hunkering down for the night was the wisest course of action?

A map and compass is a requirement but it is not a guarantee of successful route finding. Lots of folks who know better use a map and compass to get even more lost.

My only concern is that a Scout leader violated one of the cardinal rules of Scouting in how you take kids in the woods. A set of rules designed for the protection of both youth and adults. That is a VERY big deal.”

“Good point about the map and compass. I don't recall it commenting on it.”

“i found it weird that they didn't send a few trail runners to shout for them like i've seen done many times...and the sipsey is an easy place to do this...off trail in the dark for newbs isn't good. I bet they were near the horse trail...which is pretty much gone”

“First off I am a man a few words, (anyone who has met me knows this) but since this one hits close to home, I thought I might put in my 2 cents. Number One, the fact that there are not many, many more boy scouts that get lost in the Sipsey Wilderness is absolutely amazing to me. Just about every time I have met a scout troop in the Sipsey they are spread out way to far apart, they have no idea how far up the trail there leader is, and the leader has no idea how far behind the kids are.. At the photo hike there were several scouts that stopped Hoi, walkabout, and me asking if we had seen there group, this absolutely cranks me to no end… Number two, What Bama said………”

“Slowroller you hit it on the head. I have saw many scouts troops out there that were not well supervised. I don't agree with 1 adult to a group of kids. I fault the guy for this. I don't fault him for getting lost. That is easy to do out there, most of the time its kinda fun. If you are responsible for other people you need to be up to the task. I carry a group of scouts out there alot myself. As well as I know that forest I will never do it as the only adult. If you meet my troop, (7085) there will be a adult bringing up the rear. Some of the more experienced boys can lead, but they are not allowed to get out of sight of the forward adult. All hikers must carry a whistle and a flashlight, no exceptions. I don't allow them to get out of earshot of the next pair in line. Off trail they cannot get out of sight, even on turns. They must wait for the next pair before preceeding. They always have a partner that they must keep in short distance. The group only travels as fast as the slowest hiker. I have carried some of them out there several times and they know what is coming up. They patiently wait for someone's little 4 y0 brother that may not be as fast as the rest of the group. They do this because they have heard my stories about getting called out to look for lost hikers and hunters. Tromping throught those hills and hollers in the cold and rain looking for someone at 3am tends to give me a differant prospective. Hand carrying a stretcher with a injured person 2 miles makes one realize just how quick something can happen. I gladly do this for 99 percent of the times I go out. Its the other 1 percent of the time that irks me. Belive it or not I have even helped get out a Federal Judge that got drunk and fell off a ledge, then got lost. BTW he also had a pistol with him and did not pay the $1.00 permit fee either.

BAMA”

“yes you are right....there was no mention and that was the part of the story i didnt quite understand ie... being prepared and familiar....but hey i didnt realize that the sypsey wasnt marked either but knew most wilderness areas arent again depeding on where you are. My point was that if he had them and had the knowledge to use he might not have gotten misoriented requiring another night out. Again you are right ref having and getting further lost...which leads to my comment the knowledge to use...a subject that can be debated on and on for sure but my opinion won't change. If you aren't ready for your plan, don't go. Have a merry christmas all and many pleasurable hiking adventures.”

“2socks we are on the same page. No issues there. I consider this a leadership and training failure.

We function like BAMA does.
Designated Point, Mid and Sweep hikers.
Oldest most trusted boys can be point, Mid can be adult or youth. Sweep is ALWAYS an adult. Everybody regroups at signs, trail crossings, bridges, stream crossings, downed trees on the trail and any other spot the point deems confusing. We do spread out more than BAMA describes but we never have a kid wondering where the rest of the group is or feeling left behind.”

“mule...sounds like good organization there. Ya know it brought to mind a time when i was meandering around Birkhead Wilderness and came upon a group of 25 scouts with 2 leaders. They happened to camp on the trail at a noted landmark. When I stopped to ck. out the remains of the farmhouse and pinpoint it on the map, I found myself surrounded by boys and men asking just where they really were. Scary situation there. Anyway I took the time to point out that really they were only about a mile and half from the original trailhead and how far and by which route would get them to their intended destination. As it was they were headed to the same vacinity as myself and after setting up i did a quickie back to see if they got there. I will say that the Birkhead is used alot as it is small and is well marked and adequately described in books and USFS flyers. Made the whole thing a bit more scary. Anyway end of story.”

“Nowhere near perfect but we try.

Actually I take that back about never leaving a kid behind. I had an adult fail in the sweep department last March. The problem was taken care of very quickly as the boys wasn't far behind but it scared the hell out of me as it was near dusk and the kid involved was kinda spacey at times.”

“HPM. When the kids were very young I had them to swap out being "Safety Officers" No one did nothing until the "safety Officers" gave them the go ahead. This worked well and the kids were proud of their roles. What I was really doing was teaching them to always be aware of their surroundings. So far no one has been hurt beyond a scratch or two. Hope it will continue.

BAMA”