the Energy Crisis looms (no political ta lk)

“There are a growing number of people allergic to peanuts in the US.

Would fumes from peanut diesel affect them I wonder ??

LOL drive down the street and see people keel over from the fumes.”

“Oh, no, a new bio weapon. Peanut Gas...LOL”

“I don't have the research to present on the new hybred cars, but how are they selling?

I have heard mixed reviews. Anyone have one? I know the larger models are being produced now. Honda has their V6 Accord set to debut or already have.”

“There are a growing number of people allergic to peanuts in the US.

Would fumes from peanut diesel affect them I wonder ??
manuka
12:15:14 PM
12/16/04

I never thought of that. It would be something worth looking into. It might be a good form of population control.”

“other than Honda who else makes a hybrid car. I did pass one last night on the interstate. He was doing at least 70 in it.”

“Toyota, Ford, even Porche is thinking about it”

“OH yea, I forgot about Lexus. Their popular SUV is going hybred early next year.”

“I saw on the news a few months ago where Dodge was working on a 1-ton hybrid truck that was supposed to get 40mpg without any loss of horsepower. I wonder how far into the development they are.”

“Just for you BM, there are '000s of references showing SUV's unsafe because of rollovers and that people die in these rollovers.

http://www.car-accident-lawyers-attorneys.com/suv_rollover_deaths.html

Rollover accidents accounted for just 3% of all U.S. motor-vehicle accidents in 2001, but they caused nearly a third of all vehicle-occupant fatalities, Dr. Runge said. An SUV occupant was three times as likely to die as a result of a rollover than an occupant of a passenger car, he said. Moreover, fatalities in single-vehicle rollovers increased in 2001 by 22% to 8,400 deaths, with pickups accounting for the biggest gain, an increase Dr. Runge called "astounding."

http://www.suv.org/safety.html

SUVs are heavier and ride higher than regular cars. The high ride contributes to a propensity of SUVs to roll over in accidents. According to NHTSA, SUVs rollover in 37 percent of fatal crashes, compared to a 15 percent rollover rate for passenger cars. Rollover crashes accounted for 53 percent of all SUV occupant deaths in single vehicle crashes in 1996. Only 19 percent of occupant fatalities in passenger cars occurred in similar crashes. (2)”

“I think every major car maker has at least one model out or is at least working on one.

Interesting site

http://www.hybridcars.com/”

“Some guys in Colorado were recycling cooking oil from fast-food places and using it as fuel. Their bus exhaust smelled like French fries.”

“Thanks manuka, I think I misunderstood your other post”

“You betchyer ass, Indiana!

I knew some kids back in the day who drove out to somewhere in Indiana to raid U.S. goverment hemp fields.
The fields were planted to supply hemp rope for wartime use.
The stuff was worthless, by the way.

Hemp seed oil can be used as diesel fuel.
So can:
sunflower oil
soy oil
animal fat

manuka, population control

Dang, curse you , lumberzac !!!
last edited: 12/16/04 12:37:16 PM”

“All the vehicles in Neil Young's Greendale Tour used bio-diesel. It's just a matter of economics as to when the rest of us will be using it too.
>
Another point is that USA is the Saudia Arabia of Coal. Not good for greenhouse gases but it's there when we need it.
>
The best option by far is nuclear power for generating electricity! And before all you enviromental wackos start crying...(1) It doesn't emit greenhouse gases. (2) We can safely vitrify and bury the wastes in Nevada. (3) It will create high paying jobs for construction and operation. (4) We don't have to import yellow cake from Nigeria to build them. We have all the "good stuff" already.”

“Coal is acid rain as well as greenhouse gas.”

“I don't have the research to present on the new hybred cars, but how are they selling?


There is a year long waiting list for a Prius here. I am on the list for the new Highlander, if it ever comes out.”

“I see some have discounted the theories of capitalism. We can build cars that are not powered by oil today. It just so happens that the alternative fuel can't compete with the $1.59 gasoline that I put in my truck today. I don't want a truck that operates on fuel that I cannot afford. When the price of oil goes up and the cost of alternative fuels goes down the 'crisis' will be solved.”

“Gas prices higher than ever...
Iraq...
Proposals to drill Alaska...

I can't help but agree; it's only going to end when something catastrophic happens.”

“$1.59 gasoline

It's still over $2 here.”

“$2.11 here.”

“The real changes will come when gas becomes too expensive for everyday users. That's prolly only one crisis away.”

“The way things are now if there were a major oil supply disruption that lasted a long time things could get ugly in a hurry. Food riots could start if trucks couldn't get food into the cities.”

“Notice the reoccuring theme: ...total catastrophe...

On a much lighter note, if there's one good thing about New Jersey, we still have a pretty good gas deal: $1.85/gal for 87 gas with mandatory full service.”

“What I find interesting is that the gas price did stabilize in the $1.80 to $2.00 range. I heard that that's the point at which people started to change their habits and bought less gas than before.

So, of course, the oil producers ramped up the supply a bit because it is in their best interest to sell as much as they can at the price the market will bear. That seems to be about $2.00 right now.

It's just too bad that we didn't decide to stamp on a 50 cent gas tax at $1.50 and divert the money from the terrorists and towards social security. We could even have reduced other taxes to make the tax revenue-neutral.”

“With China's need for energy for its huge population, the world is going to run out of oil faster than most people think. Only those countries with established infra-structures, advanced technologies, and internal resources will be able to continue with affluence in the future. Other countries will not have the technology and resources to use more expensive energy alternatives. Right now, only one country has the ability to adapt to the future shortages, and it is US.

So when the world runs out of oil, the world will be in a world of hurt. In that future, the U.S. will continue to be the most affluent country, will continue to be the sole superpower, and it's position relative to the rest of the world will be better off. Until the rest of the world wakes up to that fact and is willing to negotiate fair and reasonable conservation and environmental treaties, it makes more economic sense to continue business as usual in the United States.”

“I'm not familiar with bio-diesel. Seems like you couldn't extract near as much energy from that? What kind of mileage do you get? Even if it was, say, the same price as current gas, wouldn't you have to have like a 50 gal tank on your car?

Cooking grade peanut oil is currently around $4/gal or so, correct?”

“The cost difference between food grade and technical grade chemicals is big. I buy technical grade mineral oil for about $100 for a 55 gallon drum, the same thing in food grade is about $750. The technical grade is 99.5% pure, that last half percent is costly.”

“That makes sense.”

“Also the alternative fuels are currently on the wrong side of the economy of scale.

The fixed cost component is probably a huge percentage for the alternative fuels, but would be tiny if the scale was increased to fuel the whole nation or even a significant portion of it.”

“Had to go for the day, so haven't seen this thread since noon yesterday. I see my objective was met: much talk about an important issue.

About the hybrid cars, I saw a recent article on CNN that said two car companies are joining forces to produce hybrid engines for use by both companies. Just found it.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/12/13/daimler.gm.reut/index.html”

“China to Build Offshore Wind Power Complex Mon Aug 15, 3:44 AM ET

SHANGHAI, China - China plans to construct its first offshore wind power complex next year in hopes of easing chronic electricity shortages, the official Xinhua News Agency reported Monday.

The complex, to be built in the Bohai Sea off the northern province of Hebei, is designed to have a generating capacity of 1 million kilowatts when completed in 2020, Xinhua said.

An initial phase to begin construction late next year will generate 50,000 kilowatts, it said, citing Gao Xihai, a vice manager of the Huanghua Port Development Zone which is promoting the project.

The plans come as Chinese cities struggle with power shortages that have forced scheduled blackouts and required industries to close or shift production to weekends or other times when demand is weakest.

Officials announced last week that China plans to add 70 million kilowatts annually to the power grid through 2007 for a total of 650 million kilowatts. They said China could by then have an electricity surplus.

China is heavily reliant on coal burning thermal power plants, but reportedly has set a generating target of 20 million kilowatts from renewable energy sources such as hydropower, solar power and wind power by 2020.

China's government says wind power potentially could generate 253 million kilowatts, although only a tiny fraction of that has so far been exploited.

Xinhua said the Hebei project would cost a total of $1.1 billion, split between the Huanghua Port Development Zone and the Guohua Energy Investment Co.


I noticed that in Calif. they have quite a few windmills/fans? along the hillsides. I wonder how much electricity they generate
last edited: 8/15/05 10:50:46 AM”

“I really like windmills but saw "No Windmill" signs all over near Naples (Finger Lakes,NY)”

“Ewker,google Edison International they have a backdown of renewables.”

“I'm all for them unless someone can give me a reason (aside from the way they look on a hillside). Michigan is starting to think about putting them on the shores of the Great Lakes. There are two bills in the house right now regarding windpower.
So far all I've read and heard says that they'll be placed on private property, farms and the like. As long as they're kept off the public parks I'll be good w/ them.”

“Windmills kill hundreds of birds

but coal fired power plants kill millions of birds.

Ideally, we will see numerous windmills scattered thruout the US shortly.

On a drive last fall, I saw a cluster of windmills in northern West Virginia and also a cluster in south central Pennsylvania.”

“the ones I saw in Calif. didn't look that bad along the hillsides. I wish I had taken a picture of them. There was well over a hundred of them just a turning in the dry desert breeze.”

“Edison has plans to build the biggest solar farm in the world here in Victorville Ca..”

“yrs ago I had solar panels put on my house to heat the water. You had to be very careful or you would scald yourself.
During the summers I would turn off the electricity to the water heater and let the sun do its job. In the winter it was about 50/50.”

“The problem with turbines on Appalachian Ridges is not birds, but bats. Those turbines in West Virginia and SW Pa. have killed an estimated 4,000 bats in each of the past two years. The issue for bats is more serious than for birds, because bats reproduce at a lower rate than birds.

The issue was studied extensively at Mountaineer Wind Energy in WV, and it was found that the bats seem attracted to the windmills. Most of the fatalities were from being struck in the side by the turning blades, which is remarkable given bats' echo-location ability and the fact that the blades of these turbines turn at a lower rate than those in California that killed eagles and other raptors.

So far no solution has been adopted by the operators, although turning off the turbines at critical times has been suggested.”

“How does 250 miles per gallon sound?”

““How does 250 miles per gallon sound?”
Buddha Bear
4:22:46 PM
8/15/05
ignore this user

The main problem I see with that is, where is the electricity being made when he plugs the car in? What good is a car that gets 250mpg when most of the electricity to be stored in the batteries was produced at an electrical power plant that burns oil for fuel? Still an interesting idea.”

“Good point, lumberzac, but they point out in the article that it is far less polluting (and cheaper) to produce the electric coming from the wall. I think they quote $.25 per charge to boost the car's overall MPG up to the new levels.”

“Most electricity is made by coal burning power plants. It's both polluting and environmentally destructive (http://community.webshots.com/album/410850747jRNMsz/0).”

“The other problem with the plug-in is the disposal of the batteries. They don't last even close to forever and they are nasty things. A car battery contains 18 pounds of lead and one pound of sulfuric acid. That guy's car had a trunk full of them.”

“How long do these batteries last, and are they recycleable?”

“It would depend on if it was a lead acid or deep cycle battery. For sure they can be recycled to some extent. That's what Sears and other tire and battery stores do. At least some of the battery can be.

Some of it is really nasty stuff like the outside of the lead which is really toxic stuff and the electrolyte. I don't know what they do with that stuff. It's basically blown out sulfuric acid I think.

Here is a good site on the topic.

http://www.batterycouncil.org/recycling.html

Lead-acid batteries are the environmental success story of our time. More than 97 percent of all battery lead is recycled. Compared to 55% of aluminum soft drink and beer cans, 45% of newspapers, 26% of glass bottles and 26% of tires, lead-acid batteries top the list of the most highly recycled consumer product.

They also offer a great graphic.



It sounds encouraging. I am not sure I but the sulfuric acid part:

The acid is neutralized with an industrial compound similar to household baking soda. This turns the acid into water. The water is treated, cleaned and tested to be sure it meets clean water standards. Then it is released into the public sewer system.

Mixing baking soda with sulfuric acid (H2SO4) does not produce water (H2O) alone. Where does the sulfur go? I know they said it was "like" baking soda, but again that doesn't explain where all the by-products go.

Also, where does the 3% of the lead go? It takes almost no lead oxide to poison a child. Heavy metals are terribly polluting and very dangerous. Once they get in your system they NEVER get out.
last edited: 8/15/05 7:26:48 PM”

“most SLA (sealed lead acid) are recycleable, the lead plates can be factory recleaned and new acid added. The old acid is fed to the poor. Age on an SLA batt is varied, depends on type of use and if its ever drained entirely (very bad news, think of your car in january with negative temps). Maybe 5 years of use?

A few things come to mind...

1) source of plug in power (coal,nuke,oil)
2) amount of power consumed to increase economy ($.25 is a steal, ave cost per KWhour is $.09) the formula here could get long and complex, but to start one HP is about 740watts...
3) long trem practicality of maintenance and replacement cost of batts. Adding substantial long term costs will be a deterrant. Most hybrids warranty their batts for 3-5 years, add that to a $5000 price hike(above the traditional model) and the upfront cost can be an issue.

Diesel electric may be the way to go (especially with cleaner burning low sulphur emissions fuels that are coming out soon) train have done it for years.

Getting away from gas is the priority, from what I have read the most efficient infernal combustion engines operate at less than 30% efficieny. A DC motor can be at or above 95%.

Fuel cells are a pipe dream for the next few decades.

All this being said if money permits a Ford Escape Hybrid may be our next vehicle in a few years. I want to see how the charging system handles a few Michigan winters nad summers first.”