Hackworth on the Draft

“Most people in the military will know who retired Army Col. David H. Hackworth is. I'd bet Birch does. For those of you who don't he's a Viet Nam vet who speaks for the grunt on the ground. If the brass screws up he will tell you.
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Recently he talked with a lot of recruiters. I bet you can guess what is going on in the recruiting world these days. Hackworth details the target number of recruits needed and the actual number of boots the recruiters are bringing in.
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Read all about it here:
http://plutonium-page.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/8/20440/1036

Would you like to read what the GIs in Iraq are saying about things "in country"? Well you can at Soldiers For the Truth.org:
http://www.sftt.org/

And Hackworth's own site:
http://www.hackworth.com

If you don't want to read I'll just tell you that the recuiters are telling "Hack' that their numbers are off by half. He thinks the draft is coming soon.”

“The only Draft that will come about will be under a Dem President.
Dems are the only one's that have demanded a Draft and voted for one.

'Talk' is cheap, and our military leaders must 'talk' and plan for all options.
Doesn't mean that will happen, just means they are doing their jobs.

Last time I checked 'the military' didn't run this country.”

“These people want to draft your kids, both girls and boys.
If you are worried so much about a Draft, make certain these people are kicked out of office ASAP!

All Dems, most far left.

NOT A SINGLE REPUB WOULD SUPPORT THIS!

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE YOU NEED TO BE SCARED OF!



“Bill H.R. 163
Representative Charlie Rangel (D-NY)
COSPONSORS(13), ALPHABETICAL
Rep Abercrombie, Neil - 1/7/2003 [HI-1]
Rep Brown, Corrine - 1/28/2003 [FL-3]
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 1/28/2003 [MO-1]
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 1/7/2003 [MI-14]
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - 1/28/2003 [MD-7]
Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - 1/28/2003 [FL-23]
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - 1/28/2003 [TX-18]
Rep Lewis, John - 1/7/2003 [GA-5]
Rep McDermott, Jim - 1/7/2003 [WA-7]
Rep Moran, James P. - 1/28/2003 [VA-8]
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes - 1/28/2003 [DC]
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 1/7/2003 [CA-13]
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. - 1/28/2003 [NY-12]

Bill S. 89
Senator Ernest Hollings (D-SC)
Cosponsors (None)”

“Hackworth does good work.

The Republicans are too cowardly to face the reality of the situation in the light of day. They operate better in the dark of night, in the the back pages of omnibus spending bills. Charlie Rangel (a certified non-chickenhawk) will force them into the open, eventually.”

“SH, you are correct about me knowing who the Colonel is. I also respect him immensely though I dont always agree.

I heard yesterday on NPR that the Guards numbers are down 30% for the past 2 months. Its hard to recruit "part-time soldiers" during wartime. The program also addressed the difficulties in trying to fight a war (multi-theatre) with a peacetime army. It really sucks always re-fighting the last war.

There is a rough road ahead. I am still quite skeptical about a draft. I dont see one happening (for political reasons) but have to admit that if any escalation occurs (like a stupid arse invasion of syria) one would be virtually necessary. I had a conversation with a veteran friend of mine this past week. She asked "What if you get called back"? I hadnt thought about that,having been out 11 years but at the green age of 31 its not entirely impossible (though admittedly quite improbable unless we broaden the war).

The situation after the elections will be critical. That first 6 months will set the tone for the future, I am guardedly optomistic.”

“But Birch how many times can they keep rotating these guys into a combat zone? After a while it's got to negatively effect the individual soldier and overall unit effectiveness.”

“It was the Democrats who slashed the military in the 90's. It is the Democrats who want a draft today.”

“bbw,
You are correct in saying that the Democrats (I'm assuming you mean the Clinton administration.) cut the number of active personnel in the military. The number was something on the order 600,000 people. It was stupid considering Slick Willie liked using The Big Stick. There was Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the outrageous act of using NATO to attack Yugoslavia.
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It's also true that the Democrats voted in mass for the draft earlier this year when Republicans brought it to the floor to make a political statement. It was a game of political chicken, and proves that deceitfulness is the stock and trade of both parties.
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The RepubliCONs wanted to make a statement about how well the military was doing in Iraq and that things were winding down. Therefore the military didn't need more people.
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The DemocRATS wanted to prove that things weren't going so swell over there and that before long the military would need some help. They are also hoping that a draft without deferments will nab the sons and daughters of chickenhawks and therefore sway public opinion away from long entanglements in Iraq and some of the other NeoCON misadventures on the drawing boards. Those misadventures include Iran and Syria for starters.
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Bbw you seem to think this is a Republican/Democrat thing. It's not. Both parties are up to their eyeballs in this mess. And if and when the military comes to them seeking help in the form of a draft, both parties will vote for it.
last edited: 12/19/04 7:58:04 AM”

“SH, its hard to say how many times soldiers can be rotated through and if those rotations can cause a loss of effectiveness.

I think rotating the guard and reservists through will be more unpopular and cause more vocal protestations simply because many of those soldiers hadnt anticpated full time military work and for many its a financial burden. This is not meant to imply a lack of commitment or dedication on their part.

Rotating the professional combat arms forces through will be less problematic IMO. They do this job all the time anyway (though obviously not in a real combat zone) its what they do and they are capable of sustaining this for quite a while. Some of the units like the 82nd for example are doing (or were, I havent spoken with any 82nd guys lately, I have one to call this afternoon) shorter rotations. In a cycle through Irag, home, afghanistahn, home, Iraq etc... if these cycles are setup well the results may be very good. Fatigue from constant battle stress is limited, families see their loved ones more (in a relative war sense) soldiers (especially newbies) get the aid and training from very experienced combat vets plus there is adequate time between deployments to retrain and update tactics nad to keep equipment maintained to higher standard (your gear and vehicles follow you home where supplies are more readily available). PLus commanders of a division (like the 82nd) get constant updates from both theatres and can really focus on keeping the training updated and focused on how the enemy is changing its approach.

I dont think that we are to the critical point of a draft. We have a huge image or PR issue with our reservists and gaurdsman families. So many people enlisted in peacetime and never thought about war as an option.

Providing we dont escalate this war into a second front we should do well. We will definitely have to look at some structural issues when the dust settles (and before).

Sorry this is so long.”

“I don't disagree with you birch but one of the reason units like the 82nd can rotate in and out of the combat zones is because they're bringing in the Reserve and National Guard units. They can't keep activating these people forever. This is going to be a political issue in the home states of these citizens. When people in the Guard and Reserve start losing jobs, homes, and marriages their House Reps and Senators are going to hear about it. The Pols are only going to take the heat for so long. When they cry, "Uncle!", watch out.
last edited: 12/19/04 12:55:26 PM”

“The only Draft that will come about will be under a Dem President.
Dems are the only one's that have demanded a Draft and voted for one.

StoveStomper
10:10:23 AM
12/18/04

SS, are you saying the draft was only started or reinstated by a President who was a Democrat??

If so you have part of it right.

President Franklin Roosevelt signed the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940 which created the country's first peacetime draft and formally established the Selective Service System as an independent Federal agency.

From 1948 until 1973, during both peacetime and periods of conflict, men were drafted to fill vacancies in the armed forces which could not be filled through voluntary means.

A lottery drawing - the first since 1942 - was held on [b]December 1, 1969[b], at Selective Service National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. This event determined the order of call for induction during calendar year 1970, that is, for registrants born between January 1, 1944 and December 31, 1950. Reinstitution of the lottery was a change from the oldest first method, which had been the determining method for deciding order of call.

Who was President in 1969?? Unless history had changed it was Pres Nixon.

In 1973, the draft ended and the U.S. converted to an All-Volunteer military.

This was also done by Nixon. Giving credit to him for starting and ending it

History of draft since then:


The registration requirement was suspended in April 1975. It was resumed again in 1980 by President Carter in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Registration continues today as a hedge against underestimating the number of servicemen needed in a future crisis

How the Draft has Changed Since Vietnam

If a draft were held today, it would be dramatically different from the one held during the Vietnam War. A series of reforms during the latter part of the Vietnam conflict changed the way the draft operated to make it more fair and equitable. If a draft were held today, there would be fewer reasons to excuse a man from service.

Before Congress made improvements to the draft in 1971, a man could qualify for a student deferment if he could show he was a full-time student making satisfactory progress toward a degree.

Under the current draft law, a college student can have his induction postponed only until the end of the current semester. A senior can be postponed until the end of the academic year.

If a draft were held today, local boards would better represent the communities they serve.
The changes in the new draft law made in 1971 included the provision that membership on the boards was required to be as representative as possible of the racial and national origin of registrants in the area served by the board.

A draft held today would use a lottery to determine the order of call.

Before the lottery was implemented in the latter part of the Vietnam conflict, Local Boards called men classified 1-A, 18 1/2 through 25 years old, oldest first. This resulted in uncertainty for the potential draftees during the entire time they were within the draft-eligible age group. A draft held today would use a lottery system under which a man would spend only one year in first priority for the draft - either the calendar year he turned 20 or the year his deferment ended. Each year after that, he would be placed in a succeedingly lower priority group and his liability for the draft would lessen accordingly. In this way, he would be spared the uncertainty of waiting until his 26th birthday to be certain he would not be drafted.”

“I first heard about Hackworth on a radio show that was piped into work. The show's host was Sean Hannity. It seems Hannity was a big Hackworth supporter along with G. Gordon Liddy. It is funny how Hannity turned against Hackworth while he was on th show one day. Hannity asked him a question (in hopes of making Bush look good) about Iraq. Hackworth went off on Bush to Hannity's suprise. He cut the interview short and hasn't had him back on to my knowledge.

I remember Liddy and Hackworth getting into it also. I like Hackworth because he speaks his mind whether you like him or not. He isn't tied down to one party which is nice.”

“There you go again.....


"The only Draft that will come about will be under a Dem President."
I'm thinking about Pres Hillary.
No way will Bush stand for a Draft.

"Dems are the only one's that have demanded a Draft and voted for one."
See the list above.
last edited: 12/19/04 3:29:14 PM”

“Nixon was the President when the draft was started in 1969!!
last edited: 12/19/04 3:28:41 PM”

“We are talking today, now, not during the dark ages.”

“No, you have said only a Democrat President would bring in the draft. I proved you wrong.”

“There you go again......
Twisting words to mean what you want.

"Dems are the only one's that have demanded a Draft and voted for one."
Just to make it where you can understand the point, perhaps I should have inserted the list of 'Rangel' Dems above into the line.

And you have your 'facts' all wrong about 1969. That wasn't the start of the 'Draft'. That was when the lottery of B'day numbers was started.
http://www.sss.gov/induct.htm
Look at the above link for the numbers of guys Drafted for each year.
Proved wrong? I don't thing so.

BTW: Nixon ENDED the Draft in 1973.


And while you are at it, all of y'all read this link:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp


Buy ya books, send ya to school........ ;-)
last edited: 12/19/04 3:58:10 PM”

“SS, I guess you didn't read what I posted to start with. scroll up and read or I can give you a link about the history of the draft.

I was drafted in 1970 by that draft and Nixon was President. Blinded by the light has to be one of your favorite songs.”

“I remember the lottery draft on December 1st, 1969. That's the day I turned 19 year old. I stayed up watching it on TV for a while as they pulled the birthdays out of that rotating wire barrel (as I remember it). I finally got tired and went to bed just knowing I was going to get a high number and thereby miss the draft the following year. The next morning my parents told me I pulled a 129! I knew they were going to draft into the high 200s so I called the local draft board. The nice lady down there asked me my number. I told her. She asked me if I was in college? I told her no. She told I'd better get in or get ready to go. To Viet Nam that is!
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April 21st, 1970. I step forward, take the oath, and get on a plane headed for Lackland AFB and four years of torment.
last edited: 12/19/04 5:09:03 PM”

“My birthday was the 11th number pulled. I got drafted that Jan. 1970 while Nixon was president. Oh wait that can't be right, no draft was ever started under a Republican president.”

“as entertaining as this thread is, the draft for Vietnam is kind of an old issue(some 30 plus years since it ended). I think the discussion was going quite well being current and all.

Ewker,I think SS was talking about a current draft since we are talking about a draft in the future, not past. I think you have taken his comment "Dems are the only one's that have demanded a Draft and voted for one" out of context by over 30 years.”

“birch, SS has made a comment or implied that every draft was started by a President who was a Democrat. That just isn't so.

As far as today there is no draft even though you have to register for one.
If he is talking about a draft in the future then he or no one else knows how or why that will happen. To assume it will be started by a Democrat vs a Republican President is a stupid comment.
last edited: 12/19/04 5:45:37 PM”

“Actually Ewker SS made a referrence to a current draft proposal started by and endorsed only by Democrats.”

“a [url] http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/10/06/41639f0ad4825[/url]”

“crap link. just search "rangel draft" on google.”

“birch, I am not talking about what he said in this thread. He made that comment in another thread.”

“I see”

“Yeah birch ...cut us old time "join or get drafted" vets some slack.
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Like I said, IMO this is not a Democrat or Republican issue. I don't think either party wants a draft. But if it's necessary both parties will vote for it. And both parties will bear an equal part of the responsibility for causing one.
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BTW, back in the old days (late 1969) one of my buds got the choice of going to jail or joining the Marine Corp. He joined up. The standards were a lot lower back then.”

““birch, I am not talking about what he said in this thread. He made that comment in another thread.”
Ewker
6:19:26 PM
12/19/04

Ewker, show me were you think I said that, because I did not.
birch understood what I was talking about.
You're just blowing smoke now.
last edited: 12/19/04 8:25:59 PM”

“Actually solitary hiker, I do see it in terms of Dems and Repubs, but I can respect your position.

The only people who have gone on record as wanting a current Draft are the Dems on the Rangle list above. They are the enemy as far as I'm concerned.

I too had one of those lottery numbers, but I was lucky to turn 18 in 1973, when the Draft for Nam ended. Very scary. I will not vote for ANYONE that brings a Draft back, unless the USA itself has been invaded.
last edited: 12/19/04 8:34:54 PM”

“SS - you seem to be basing you're opinions that there won't be a draft on right-wing instinct. While I don't think there will be one, it would be political suicide for any administration that imposes it (this side of another major terrorist attack), I think trying to use it as some sort of stick to beat Dems with is wrong.

But if it did happen, who would be responsible. It would be the administration that invaded another country on the basis of a falsehood, that there were weapons of mass destruction. This then went wrong, is going wrong, and this is why you're left with a shortage of recruits.”

“snip...I think trying to use it as some sort of stick to beat Dems with is wrong...snip
ynamiynami
8:38:50 PM

Come on Y2, the Rangle Dems NEED to be run off of office! THEY VOTED FOR A DRAFT!

I think I have made my position clear. You vote to bring back a Draft, you need to be voted out of office ASAP!
I don't care what party you are a member of.

..and don't you think the Dems NEED to be beat with a stick ever now and then when they screw up? Make's them a better party. I don't want a one party system any more than you do.
last edited: 12/19/04 8:50:23 PM”

“yeah, but using this is not the option. It was obviously a political move by the dems to vote for this.

The real question is not who wants the draft, but how did America get in the situation where it could even be needed, and for what ends.”

“SS, I'm not blowing smoke. I will go find the statement you made about it.”

“Pretty weak, Ewker.
You argue something you THINK I said into the ground and then say you saw it on 'some other thread'.

Seems to me you've become just a contraryian (SP?) to anything I say or you think I've said.

"birch, SS has made a comment or implied that every draft was started by a President who was a Democrat.
Ewker
5:43:11 PM"

Find where you think I made the above statement.
It's time to put up or shut up.”

“SS, I just got through reading the bringing back the draft thread. I thought that was where you made your comment. Unfortunately I couldn't find it. I still know that you said that.
So until I can find it, you are right.”

“I believe Ewker is refering to this post...

“The only Draft that will come about will be under a Dem President.
Dems are the only one's that have demanded a Draft and voted for one.

'Talk' is cheap, and our military leaders must 'talk' and plan for all options.
Doesn't mean that will happen, just means they are doing their jobs.

Last time I checked 'the military' didn't run this country.”
StoveStomper
10:10:23 AM
12/18/04

Seems a simple misunderstanding as I don't think SS was talking about PAST drafts but FUTURE drafts.”

“Every one but Ewker seems to understand that, Nigal.

Ewker can't find what I did not say. ;-)
last edited: 12/20/04 9:21:25 AM”

“I could see it happening. I had to read the thing three times before I realized you weren't claiming every draft was started by a demoncat.”

“I'm a dang Engineer, not a wordsmith! ;-)”