5,500 U.S. Soldiers Have Fled to Canada

“5,500 U.S. Soldiers Have Fled to Canada
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/09/wus09.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/01/09/ixportal.html

US deserters flee to Canada to avoid service in Iraq
By Charles Laurence in New York

American Army soldiers are deserting and fleeing to Canada rather than fight in Iraq, rekindling memories of the thousands of draft-dodgers who flooded north to avoid service in Vietnam.

An estimated 5,500 men and women have deserted since the invasion of Iraq, reflecting Washington's growing problems with troop morale.

Jeremy Hinzman, 26, from South Dakota, who deserted from the 82nd Airborne, is among those who - to the disgust of Pentagon officials - have applied for refugee status in Canada.

The United States Army treats deserters as common criminals, posting them on "wanted" lists with the FBI, state police forces and the Department of Home Security border patrols.

Hinzman said last week: "This is a criminal war and any act of violence in an unjustified conflict is an atrocity. I signed a contract for four years, and I was totally willing to fulfil it. Just not in combat arms jobs."

Hinzman, who served as a cook in Afghanistan, was due to join a fighting unit in Iraq after being refused status as a conscientious objector.

He realised that he had made the "wrong career choice" as he marched with his platoon of recruits all chanting, "Train to kill, kill we will".

He said: "At that point a light went off in my head. I was told in basic training that if I'm given an illegal or immoral order, it is my duty to disobey it. I feel that invading and occupying Iraq is an illegal and immoral thing to do.''

Pte Brandon Hughey, 19, who deserted from the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood, Texas, said that he had volunteered because the army offered to pay his college fees. He began training soon after the invasion of Iraq but became disillusioned when no weapons of mass destruction were found.

"I had been willing to die to make America safe," he said. "I found out, basically, that they found no weapons of mass destruction and the claim that they made about ties to al-Qaeda was coming up short. It made me angry. I felt our lives as soldiers were being thrown away."

When he was ordered to deploy to Iraq, Hughey searched the internet for an "underground railroad" operation, through which deserting troops are helped to escape to Canada.

He was put in touch with a Quaker pacifist couple who had helped Vietnam draft-dodgers and was driven from Texas to Ontario.

The Pentagon says that the level of desertion is no higher than usual and denies that it is having difficulty persuading troops to fight. The flight to Canada is, however, an embarrassment for the military, which is suffering from a recruiting shortfall for the National Guard and the Army Reserves.

The deaths of 18 American soldiers in a suicide bomb attack in Mosul, northern Iraq, last month, was a further blow to morale. Soon after, the number of American soldiers killed since President Bush declared that large-scale combat operations were at an end passed the 1,000 mark.

Lt Col Joe Richard, a Pentagon spokesman, said that the US government wanted the deserters to be returned from Canada. "If you don't want to fight, don't join," he said.

"The men in Canada have an obligation to fulfil their military contracts and do their duty. If and when they return to this country, they will be prosecuted."

The penalty for desertion in wartime can be death. Most deserters, however, serve up to five years in a military prison before receiving a dishonourable discharge.

In order to stay in Canada, deserters must convince an immigration board that they would face not just prosecution but also "persecution" if they returned to America. Hinzman's hearing has begun in Toronto and a decision is expected next month.

During the Vietnam war an estimated 55,000 deserters or draft-dodgers fled to Canada. There were amnesties for both groups in the late 1970s under President Jimmy Carter, but many stayed.

One who did so is Jeffrey House, a Toronto-based lawyer, who represents some of the deserters. He said that at least 25 had reached Canada in recent months with the help of "railroad" organisations, and believed that the immigration board would back his clients.
last edited: 1/13/05 5:28:34 PM”

“Some of us have been saying all along that this is the son of Vietnam, but the chickenhawks keep shouting, no, this is a great war and we should all line up to die for Shrub's ego war. Of course, the people who believe that have not signed up. They're sitting at their computers telling all of us on TT how great the war is.

Ahhhh, the smell of napalm in the morning ...”

“LOL.. I knew there were some but I was actually surprised by how many it was. Rummy's been good at keeping the desertion numbers quiet until now.

This actually gives me a lot of faith in the military and validates a point the right-wingers often make... that they aren't all children-slaughtering gun freaks that don't have a clue what's going on.

Quite the opposite.
last edited: 1/13/05 6:01:04 PM”

“No you aren't a troll of BB.
I was wrong.
You are Laqtis.

Damn, and I just bragged how I had respect for you for holding up your part of the stupid bet.”

“I admire the courage of these people to stand for what they believe in (and against what they don't) in the face of being classed as "criminals" by our wonderful government. I wish them all the luck in the world.”

“SS, keep guessing.”

“laqtis couldn't type that many sentences without a typo.”

“And I hope every one of them end up making big rocks into little rocks at Levinworth.”

“Hmmm, I know of a couple of Canadian soldiers that were supposed to go to Somalia and/or Afganistan for relief efforts. Suddenly their girlfriend or wife had "physcological" problems...stomach pains, crying for no reason etc. etc.....so their man can remain in Canada.

Do you think they only joined the army for the paycheck and some career courses?

Maybe those American soldiers joined for the courses and money too.”

“Why is desertion even a crime?

I understand how it could be a breach of contract and the soldiers could be sued for the values of the services, but why is it a federal crime to withold services?

If you have a vendor and he doesn't deliver, you can get your money back via litigious means. If you have an employee who doesn't do their job you can fire them, and maybe make them repay a signing bonus.

Why is the military 'special' and has special rules?

I mean the only time this 'desertion' crap even gets talked about or comes into play is during highly controversial acts of militant totalitarianism.

We had soldiers LINING UP to go after bin Laden. We even had NFL players with secured multi-million dollar contracts going over to get bin Laden (only to be killed by friendly fire).

There were no problems with desertion in terms of going after bin Laden.

The only time desertion comes up as an issue is when the government is doing things it shouldn't be doing.

I can't find a single reason why desertion should even be legal. The mere existence of criminal penalties for desertion strikes me as extraordinarily tyrannical.

The mere existence of desertion laws, and how forceful the military enforces them says only one thing.

... people in armed services are most often forced to do things they don't want to do.
last edited: 1/13/05 8:26:03 PM”

“Ya know, this is the stupidest troll EVER. LOL.”

“I wouldn’t want my child to be drafted either. I would hate it. It would scare me to DEATH! However I would encourage them to go. If they felt they could not kill a fellow human I would encourage them to go ahead and be a conscience objector and become a medic or be in the rear with the gear (there is absolutely NO shame in this). If they chose not to go into the draft I would have to spend the holidays in Canada because if they went there I would encourage them to stay there

Nigal
8:30:00 AM
11/24/03


And I hope every one of them end up making big rocks into little rocks at Levinworth.”
Nigal
7:15:57 PM
1/13/05



Nigal, would you have your kids breaking big rocks into little rocks??”

“Its a shame that the media has ruin this war by tainting the mind set of the American soldier and public. This war is being lost at home before it has a chance to be lost on the front line. Shades of 'Nam, some would say.

There is conflict of interest between the soldier in the field and the reporter in the field. The military is train to be very careful with valuable information and its treatment even if that means withholding it from those that don't need it. The media hiding behind the flag on the otherhand wants its because the citizens have the right to know. Somethings are best not known.

The military likes the notion of secrecy and surprise, two vital elements in winning a war. The media again on the other hand likes to grab it's information from were ever it can.

The military primarily likes to talk about it's successes, rarely will it talk about it's failures unless questioned. The media likes to make public both the successes and the failures. This is where loyalty can become a factor. Does the media have any loyalty when in competition for headlines.

The military gathers info for a focused purpose, the media doesn't. It gathers and then spreads it's interpetions of the events.

Sadly the media never should have been given the access it has been given in this conflict. It's been killing this war from the start. They aren't fully to blame but a large percentage of the disension among the soldiers can be place squarely on the shoulders of the media and how they portray it to the us.

Imagine the outcome of this war had the media been handcuffed as they were in Desert Storm and the Falklands for Britian.
last edited: 1/14/05 1:07:46 AM”

“This has to be the most ridiculous I have ever heard...

... "The media ruined Bush's war."

LOL. Only in America could we be occupying, robbing, and slaughtering people for oil companies and it's the media's fault for making what we are doing look bad.
last edited: 1/14/05 7:25:56 AM”

“Join the mobile infantery and save the world !
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“Maybe the military wouldn't have so many desertions if they weren't so good at marketing? Maybe they should be sued for false advertizing?

"Amputee Vet Sues Army Over 'Be All You Can Be' Campaign".”

“Minister of Truth.....check your dipstick...you're a quart low on BS

Nigal....see..that masturbation thing does cause insanity. Dr Ruth once said that you should try using sandpaper, increasing the grit strength as you go. That'll help you quit.”

“I really don't think my assumption regarding the media is that far fetched. The media is in the biz to make money and if that requires them to tell half truths, they will. They helped to pump this war by censoring protesters and pushing government agendas, why can't they also help deflate it?

A prime example comes to mind. You folks remember Rummy's little quote 'As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time.'

This was just a little snippet of what he actually said. The rest of his response was never televised or talk about. Why?

Here for the most part is what he said..
'I talked to the general coming out here about the pace at which the vehicles are being armored. They have been brought from all over the world, wherever they're not needed, to a place where they are needed. I'm told that they are being ... I think it's something like 400 a month are being done. And it's essentially a matter of physics. It isn't a matter of money. It isn't a matter, on the part of the Army, of desire. It's a matter of production and capability of doing it.

As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time. Since the Iraq conflict began, the Army has been pressing ahead to produce the armor necessary at a rate they believe ... it's a greatly expanded rate from what existed previously, but a rate that they believe is the rate that is all that can be accomplished at this moment.

I can assure you that Gen. Schoomaker and the leadership in the Army and certainly Gen. Whitcomb are sensitive to the fact that not every vehicle has the degree of armor that would be desirable for it to have, but that they're working at it at a good clip."

Furthermore, what the media failed to bring this to the attention of the masses is that most of the vehicles had already been reinforced and that the following day after the Rummy quote the remaining 20 were refurbished.

At a Pentagon briefing by Maj. Gen. Speakes he was asked about this again by the hungry media. His response, '"When the question [to Rumsfeld] was asked, 20 vehicles remained to be up-armored at that point. We completed those 20 vehicles in the next day. And so over 800 vehicles from the 278th were up-armored, and they are part now of their total force that is operating up in Iraq."

To down play the medias involvement in the success or failure of this campaign shows to me that you are as ignorant as those that only watch Faux News.

Announcer: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Welcome to radio station EXP.
Tonight we are featuring an interview
with a very peculiar looking gentleman
who goes by the name of Mr. Paul
Corusoe on the dodgy subject of are
there or are there not flying saucers
or UFOs? Please Mr. Corusoe, please
could you give us your regarded
opinion on this nonsense about
spaceships and even space people?
Mr. Corusoe: Thank you As you well know
you just can't believe everything you
see and hear, can you? Now, if you'll
excuse me, I must be on my way.”

“Cowards, who joined a volunteer Military, then bailed on thier team mates when the going got tough. Maybe if they were drafted against their will, I might be able to understand their position. But they joined freely.

And people and the media are complaining about Randy Moss leavbing two seconds early in a game. At least he showed up at the next one. Makes me wonder about the perspectives of some.

Canada is all the poorer for allowing them in.”

“WLD ... they joined not with the expectation we would invade and occupy a country that never did anything to us. I suppose, if people were taught better about the history of U.S. militarism, they'd know things better and be able to make better decisions.

It's not like the military runs ads cluster bombing villages and machine-gunning pedestrian cars who can't understand English.”

“I guess the Minister for Truth is rather like the Iraqi Information Minister, whatever his name was.
Rumsfeld's additional comments don't change the meaning of the phrase he was quoted on in any way. It's a nice summary of his comments and what he was trying to get across. You'd seem to prefer a propagade regime than having journalists in. Also Falklands war was a very different scenaria, with a tiny population, so most of the battles were fought on semi-tundra, with no native population to worry about. Also it was staged largely from the Sea, so journalists had to be embedded. They also relied on military communications, since in the early 80s sat phones and other instant communications weren't available. The media war is a fact of modern life, and it's good that people are able to see the situation themsevles, rather than getting government approved messages from big brother.”

“none of it changes the truth. If you join any organization like the military. You agree to take orders, not make policy. They are still cowards, who took people hard earned money in tax form and then bailed when they were needed.”

“An estimated 5,500?

Based on what?”

“Put down your books and pick up a gun!

We're gonna have a whole lot of fun!

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1056.htm”

“So an estimated 5,500 went AWOL out of a total standing force of 1,462,660 (as of 10/31/2004)

A whopping .00376%.
The shoulda coulda wouldas of the Iraq war are certainly debateable but this hardly seems to be an indictment.”

“I think Pack said it best.”

“Actually, the 5500 numbers are the desertion numbers.

I don't believe it includes the ordered national guard no-shows which have been very high percentage wise (like 50%).

Those are at 30,000+.

So that's 35,500 that we know of (and the Pentagon is certainly not very interested in having this stuff be made public).
last edited: 1/14/05 3:15:42 PM”

“I bet these deserters were just sad that France isn't connected to the US so they could be with their own kind. I guess hiding with the French Canadians will have to do for now.”

“Umm... France has had huges numbers of troops in Afghanistan pretty much the duration of the things going on in Afghanistan.

Why?

Because they knew Jr. would abandon it, like he did, and they didn't want it to fall apart ... again.
last edited: 1/14/05 3:18:22 PM”

“Wow, Buddha Bear defending the French? Hmmm, maybe TT IS Laqutis. LOL!”

“I'll always defend the French with respect to Iraq.

France is going to end up with a fat chunk of Iraqi oil revenue eventually pretty much no matter how this thing turns out without costing the french people a drop of blood or a penny.

I personally wish we were fortunate enough to have someone as smart as that guy for president.

Instead we are stuck with a rancher-imposter who can't even ride a horse.

(NO, Jr. really can't ride a horse, he's never ridden one and the S.S. won't let him ride one now because he could hurt himself... that's why they always have him out 'acting manly' by using chainsaws and picking up brush, LOL... everything about the guy is a fraud).
last edited: 1/14/05 3:26:22 PM”

“OK, back in your room now.

”

“Y2 I'm sorry you feel that way but I feel there was a injustice by the media when it didn't represent what Rummy said correctly. The quote was taken out of context. Do you really think that all the huppla that arose from this quote would have happened had the media aired the rest of it. I doubt it. Its a good sound bite, no doubt about that and the media ran with it but the full story was not covered. Why? because it didn't fit the medias agenda on how they wish Rummy to be painted.

Oh and it wasn't a summary but a quote.
last edited: 1/14/05 3:53:55 PM”

“Is this the French army you are referring too..

The ground war in Afghanistan hotted up yesterday when the Allies revealed plans to airdrop a platoon of crack French existentialist philosophers into the country to destroy the morale of Taleban zealots by proving the non-existence of God.
Elements from the feared Jean-Paul Sartre Brigade, or 'Black Berets', will be parachuted into the combat zones to spread doubt, despondency and existential anomie among the enemy. Hardened by numerous intellectual battles fought during their long occupation of Paris's Left Bank, their first action will be to establish a number of pavement cafes at strategic points near the front lines. There they will drink coffee and talk animatedly about the absurd nature of life and man's lonely isolation in the universe. They will be accompanied by a number of heartbreakingly beautiful girlfriends who will further spread dismay by sticking their tongues in the philosophers' ears every five minutes and looking remote and unattainable to everyone else.
Their leader, Colonel Marc-Ange Belmondo, spoke yesterday of his confidence in the success of their mission. Sorbonne graduate Belmondo, a very intense and unshaven young man in a black pullover, gesticulated wildly and said, "The Taleban are caught in a logical fallacy of the most ridiculous. There is no God and I can prove it. Take your tongue out of my ear, Juliet, I am talking."
Marc-Ange plans to deliver an impassioned thesis on man's nauseating freedom of action with special reference to the work of Foucault and the films of Alfred Hitchcock.
However, humanitarian agencies have been quick to condemn the operation as inhumane, pointing out that the effects of passive smoking from the Frenchmens' endless Gitanes could wreak a terrible toll on civilians in the area.
Speculation was mounting last night that Britain may also contribute to the effort by dropping Professor Stephen Hawking into Afghanistan to propagate his non-deistic theory of the creation of the universe.
Other tactics to demonstrate the non-existence of God will include the dropping of leaflets pointing out the fact that Michael Jackson has a new album out and Oprah Winfrey has not died yet.
This is only one of several Psy-Ops operations mounted by the Allies to undermine the unswerving religious fanaticism that fuels the Taleban's fighting spirit. Pentagon sources have recently confirmed rumours that America has already sent in a 200-foot-tall robot Jesus, which roams the Taleban front lines glowing eerily and shooting flames out of its fingers while saying, 'I am the way, the truth and the life, follow me or die.' However, plans to have the giant Christ kick the crap out of a slightly effeminate 80-foot Mohammed in central Kabul were discarded as insensitive to Muslim allies.

French forces aren't as huge as you might think..
http://www.consulfrance-atlanta.org/forces_francaises.htm
http://www.info-france-usa.org/news/statmnts/2004/defense_budget070804.asp”

“> French forces aren't as huge as you might think..

Yeah, but the way the cross-burning rightie-whities bash them you'd think they contributed nothing, and in fact, kidnapped some of our own soldiers and have them hit in basements butt-f*cking them with gimp balls in their mouths.

(Ooops, that's what one U.S. soldier did to an Iraqi boy minus the gimp-ball ... sorry ...got confused).
last edited: 1/14/05 5:18:58 PM”

“I remember when I was in Desert Storm the French were positioned way out in western Iraq with the camels.

That way they wouldn't get hurt or stink up the place.”

“Insurgents Not Heroes to Iraqis
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jan. 14, 2005 – Any idea that the insurgency is a spontaneous rising of the Iraqi people is "hogwash," said a senior Multinational Force Iraq official here.

The insurgents are people who stand to lose if the Iraqi people choose freedom and democracy, the official told American Forces Press Service. "There are no illusions about the insurgents," he said. "The people know they are immoral, vicious animals who want only their own power."

The insurgents generally are die-hard members of the Baath Party. They are bankrolled out of funds stashed by Saddam Hussein and senior members of the party before the coalition entered Iraq.

"The good news is, those funds are drying up," said the official. "The bad news is, they don't need a lot of money to buy weapons. Iraq is littered with weapons and ammunition."

In addition to Iraqis, foreign fighters are operating in Iraq. Fugitive Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi is the best known. His network has been responsible for some of the most heinous acts of violence against Iraqis and coalition soldiers. Zarqawi took "credit" for attacks on the U.N. compound, attacks against Kurds in northern Iraq and many of the attacks against Iraqi security forces.

Coalition officials said some foreign fighters are entering the country and assuming Iraqi identities. Marines in Fallujah uncovered a building loaded with clothes and identification cards used for that purpose.

The recent battles of Fallujah and Samarra were huge loses for the insurgents. However, small cells of mostly senior members managed to evade the Marines and soldiers at those battles. The leaders managed to begin operations elsewhere. MNFI officials said that is where the insurgents launching attacks in Mosul, for example, came from.

Officials estimate that in all of Iraq, there are between 10,000 and 14,000 dedicated, die-to-the-last-man insurgents. These men – and they are mostly men – rule through intimidation.

Almost every soldier or Marine here has a story about insurgent intimidation. In one, a pharmacist set up a small business cleaning the buildings at Camp Victory. He and his brother and three women journeyed daily onto the camp. One morning, insurgents stopped his vehicle and killed all of them.

In Fallujah, Marines discovered torture chambers where insurgents inflicted unspeakable pain on Fallujans. "We found corpses that were horribly mutilated," said a Marine. "If this were truly a popular uprising, these people would not have to do this."

But the insurgents do recruit, and they are finding a willing pool. This has nothing to do with philosophy, and everything to do with economics, officials said. Unemployment in the nation is high, and the insurgents will pay people to launch attacks on Iraqi security forces or the coalition. "If someone is supporting a family and there is no money coming in, then $200 a month from the insurgents starts looking pretty good," said an MNFI official.

So rebuilding Iraq, getting people work, getting food, water and medicine to the people and clearing sewage is just as much a part of the war against insurgents as "kinetic operations" – actually killing or capturing them. "Take away the need, and you will take away the motivation for joining," said one official.

Another used the example of Sadr City – the Shiia neighborhood in Baghdad. The coalition began a major project to deliver electricity and clean water to the city. It started in the eastern part of the city and worked west.

"You could see the number of incidents drop along the line of the project," he said. "The people didn't want insurgents taking away everything they had gained." Intelligence tips from the people in the city also increased, and Iraqi security forces and members of the 1st Cavalry Division were able to round up dozens of insurgents.

This is an example of affecting people where they live. Providing dependable and safe electricity in homes is almost more important than building new power plants, officials said. Iraqis typically wired their own homes and used everything from barbed wire to car-battery cables to tap into the electrical grid.

Water-borne diseases are a major killer in Iraq. Fixing the water distribution system to homes is almost more important than building new purification plants.

"People with raw sewage in their street or front yard don't want to clean up the Tigris, they want the sewage out of their yards," said an official. Making these type of changes in the daily life of average Iraqis will go a long way to destroying the insurgency, he said.

Officials expect the level of intimidation to increase as the Jan. 30 election approaches. To that end, the Iraqi interim government, Iraqi security forces and coalition forces are working to increase the level of security. Up to election day, coalition and Iraqi forces will continue operations targeting the insurgents, officials said.

On election day, the Iraqi security forces will provide security around the almost 6,000 polling places in the country. Coalition forces will provide a quick-reaction capability to incidents.”

“> I remember when I was in Desert Storm the
> French were positioned way out in western
> Iraq with the camels. That way they wouldn't
> get hurt or stink up the place.”

As best I can tell "way out in Western Iraq" is Al-Anbar... the killing fields for U.S. Soldiers.”

“> American Forces Press Service

Ahh yes... quality news service there!

I understand that group is actually on record arguing the case that they should be allowed to keep completely making stories up 'because we are at war'. LOL.”

“Oh, you mean like CBS?”

“CBS hasn't petitioned for the right to manufacture news like the Pentagon has. They actually want the legal right to just make crap up and print it as news for "war purposes", LOL.

As to CBS, I've followed it closely, and despite all the floating around B.S., *NOTHING* in the CBS report wasn't true.

The final report didn't say any of the material facts of the report were in error or factually inaccurate. Nor did it say the documents were forged.

The final report said CBS was guilty of "Myopic Zeal".

I.e., CBS was found 'guilty' of questioning Jr.'s record. CBS was guilty of not reporting that a witness didn't like Bush.

I.e., they found CBS guilty of not telling both sides of the story!

I don't say FOX News doesn't have a right to question Clinton or others, they have every right to, and so does CBS. But FOX News has been a complete failure in telling *ANY* story other than what the GOP ditto-heads and operatives hand them to say.

And *NO ONE* in major media is reporting the biggest / most important story of the last 50 years, specifically, what other people think of America, and why they hold their views.

*NO ONE* is reporting the anti-American view so if CBS is guilty, then all of the press is guilty.

The simple fact of the matter is that 60-80% of the criticisms of this countries foreign policy, by people victimized by it, have merit.
last edited: 1/15/05 1:10:04 PM”

“I don't care what other people think of America. This country wasn't founded to kiss the world's ass.”

“Murderers, rapists, and robbers share the same perspective about their victims.”

“We have prisons for your relatives.

Saddam and his sons were guilty of those exact crimes.
last edited: 1/15/05 3:46:09 PM”

“> Saddam and his sons were guilty of those exact crimes.

Yes, according to Bush. His Daddy also said "Saddam had his soldiers pulling babies out of incubators and throwing them out windows."

Bush Sr.'s source for this story? The daughter of the Kuwait royal families "Ministry of Information" (i.e., state propaganda office). No evidence of this, nor witnesses have ever been found.

And there isn't any PROOF of Bush's existing claims either. All of the public claims by Jr. have been refuted, including:

- Claim: 400,000 bodies in mass graves.
Reality: 5k-15k, mostly Iranian
from Iran-Iraq war (which we
backed Saddam in to overthrow
our OTHER installed puppet
government)


- "House of Horrors" loaded with bodies
and torture equipment.

Reality: 100% of the bodies were
tagged Iranian bodies that had
been identified from Iran-Iraq war,
pending return to Iranian families
for burial. "Evil equipment" was

The only thing they've got on Saddam that really sticks is the gassing of the Kurds, with the chemical weapons we sold him, and we consequently covered it up at the U.N. when people wanted Saddam prosecuted over it. So, according to our legal system/values, we most certainly were an accomplice in it.

That's why there hasn't been any trial of Saddam... and I don't think there ever will be, they'll just keep him locked up.

They don't have a DAMN THING on the guy and any trial is either going to have to be a fixed-kangeroo court, or it'll be fair and Saddam is simply going to talk about the names and companies and orders and operatives of the U.S. people he worked with, sold him the things, backed him in the plans, and covered it up for him at the U.N.

Rummsfeld was right in the middle of all of this during the weapons sales forward.



Iran-Iraq War, Arming Iraq and U.S. Involvement
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
last edited: 1/15/05 10:30:32 PM”

“Why your at it please give us your defense of Osama bin laden, Adolf Hitler and Satan.”

“'No Blood for Oil'--Public Folly, Political Suicide
Written by Joe Mariani
Friday, January 14, 2005


Is there any more glaring public display of folly possible than the "No Blood For Oil" bumper sticker I recently spotted on the back of an SUV? The closest thing to that level of irony was a "Buy American" bumper sticker I saw years ago on a VW Beetle -- a German car manufactured in Mexico. The humor was intentional in that case, however. (Thanks, Dr. G, wherever you are.) Frankly, unless you live in a hand-built log cabin eating only what you grow and wearing clothes you weave yourself out of the hemp you don't smoke, you're as sticky with oil as though you dove headfirst into a tanker's hold. If you drive a car or ride a bus, you use oil. Heat your house? You use oil. Wear clothes? Buy groceries? Read this on a computer screen? You're using oil. And if you're driving something that uses more gas than almost any other car you could possibly be driving, and you're accusing the US government of invading other countries to steal their oil for your consumption... well, it's a shame that stupidity isn't painful. If you look around, though, you can find plenty of examples of self-parody in action.

In some circles, public displays of folly are fast becoming a way of life. Take some Democrat reactions to the re-election of President Bush, for instance. When the election results were certified, Democrats both inside and outside of Congress protested. Some, like Senator Barbara Boxer (D-Ca), merely cried. Others, like Rep. Stephanie Tubbs-Jones (D-OH), voiced pointless objections to the election results based on... well, nothing in particular. Reverend Jesse Jackson marched with a group of orange-clad demonstrators right outside of Congress. They wore orange in imitation of the thousands of brave souls who protested REAL election fraud in Ukraine, which included beatings, destruction of ballots with acid, disappearing ink, disappearing voters and the Dioxin poisoning of the opposing candidate, Viktor Yushchenko. If I were Ukrainian, I'd be incensed at the presumption of Jackson and his group. There has been no actual evidence of partisan election fraud in Ohio, where the Democrats are concentrating their ineffectual protests merely due to Ohio's large number of electoral votes. (Problems? Yes. Deliberate fraud? No.) It's all about discrediting President Bush at any cost, even damage to the Democratic Party's credibility. Oddly enough, the Democrats are not clamoring to have voter fraud examined in instances where it might have favored their candidate, like the 46,000 Democrats registered in both Florida and New York.

It's obvious to anyone who pays attention that the drive to "have every vote counted" is strictly one-sided. The day before the election was certified, Kerry's web site, johnkerry.com, sent out an email (signed simply, "John Kerry") to all subscribers. The email complained of "reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote," but admitted that, "our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election." Nevertheless, Kerry assured his readers, "I want every vote counted," even though if (by some miracle) every vote yet uncounted was cast for Kerry, he still couldn't come close to a win. It's almost as though Kerry, unhappy at his loss, is determined to waste as many taxpayer dollars as possible in retaliation. Kerry, or whoever wrote the email in his name, also stated that, "our citizens should never be forced to vote on old, unaccountable and non transparent voting machines from companies controlled by partisan activists." It seems strange that the results from the same machines weren't challenged in 1992 or 1996, when they logged more votes for Bill Clinton than any of his opponents. It's only when Republicans get more votes that Democrats complain about faulty machines and the owners of the companies that made them.

Meanwhile, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA), the poster boy for public folly, still hasn't figured out why the Democrats have lost yet another election. In a speech to the National Press Club, Kennedy complained about losing the 2004 election, and called for the Democrats to move even further Left than they already have. He seems to believe that Democrats can connect with a majority of Americans by digging in on issues like abortion on demand and gay "marriage," and insisted that cradle-to-grave health care and a college degree are the responsibility of the government to provide. Kennedy demanded that his party oppose free trade and social security reform. He also took the opportunity to call Iraq (can you guess?) a "quagmire" and "George Bush's Vietnam," with less than three weeks to go before an historic and unprecedented democratic election in that country. (The Left call themselves "progressive," yet refuse to see real progress in action.) In the same sentence, he decried "non-scientific, pseudo-scientific, and anti-scientific nonsense" and demanded "immediate action to reduce global warming," which is the penultimate in pseudo-scientific nonsense. Kennedy seems immune to the embarrassment he brings upon himself and, as long as they treat him as their spokesman, his party.

Kennedy called his speech, "A Democratic Blueprint for America's Future." As long as left-wing lunatics like him continue to speak for that party, dragging them even further out of touch with mainstream Americans, the Democrats have no future.”

“>Why your at it please give us your defense of
>Osama bin laden, Adolf Hitler and Satan.

You forgot Bush in your list of militant totalitarians...

Well, Satan is easy, he is a figment of your imagination and it's hard to defend something that doesn't even exist.

As to Hitler, well, he very much uses all the same / similar justificationist defenses for slaughtering people as Bush does. The biggest two differences is that Bush hasn't reached the same body count, and Hitler turned a profit during his slaughtering.

Hitler is closer to Jr. Hitler's speeches are much the same as Jr.'s, for instance. Read Hitler's speeches and justications for slaughtering people for yourself:

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/

As to Osama, he's different in a lot of ways. If you read Osama's speeches and justificationism for his slaughtering of people, he basically cites:

- Americans have a democracy, they vote
and they choose their leaders, therefore
they are responsible for the decisions
their government makes.

- Americans pay taxes financing the U.S.
government and it's policies, therefore
they are financing terrorist actions
against arabs.

- U.S. industrial destruction of the
environment and abandoning of the Kyoto
treaty.

- U.S. arming and financial support of
Israel's occupation of Palestine.

- The U.S. does not allow arabs to have
security from the U.S., so they are not
going to let Americans have their own
security.

- U.S. financial support and military
backing of tyrannical arab dictators
who abuse the arab people.

And I should note that of the people you listed for me to 'defend', Osama has the smallest body count ... by far.

Bush, well his defense, the real one, is that he wants his families friends & companies to control the oil. We, the American people certainly aren't controlling it, the oil companies are charging us out the a$$ for it, and we are also paying for the war and the blood for the Bush lobby to acquire it.
last edited: 1/15/05 11:47:14 PM”

“ULTRA... it would be better if you could provide your own thoughts rather than carbon copy some guys blog entries, LOL...

...that is if you are even capable of thinking for yourself without being told what to say?

__

As to oil, well we are very dependent on the oil. As a consumer of the products, I just don't think Exxon and the Bush family are going to manage it more effectively or more cheaply than if the arabs controlled it.

Frankly, history shows that when the arabs control their own oil, the prices have been very low and are managed by true market demand.

Whenever the U.S. oil companies or Bush family get involved, prices go through the roof. It is a lie that the oil companies are charging the lowest price. Exxon is reporting all-time record profits on fixed oil costs, go read their income statements yourself. They aren't hiring people to do research for alternative, or anything else, they are just paying themselves more.

Whoever controls the oil, they are still going to sell it to consumers at prices the market can bare. Oil can't get higher than $5/gallon under any circumstances because other alternatives kick in more cheaply at that point (natural gas, biodiesel, etc.), so $5/gallon is the ceiling.

But I would rather see the arabs control the oil rather then Bush/Exxon simply because it means far fewer bloodbaths, recent history has shown lower oil prices, and us taxpayers won't get stuck paying massive taxes to not only pay for wars (and all the related corruption), but also to pay for the interest on the loans for the money borrowed to pay for the wars.”