IRAQ -- Did you know??

“IRAQ - DID YOU KNOW?

The garden of Eden was in Iraq.

Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization!

Noah built the ark in Iraq.

The Tower of Babel was in Iraq.

Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq!

Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in Iraq.

Jacob met Rachel in Iraq

Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq.
Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten tribes of Israel.

Amos cried out in Iraq!

Babylon, which is in Iraq, destroyed Jerusalem.

Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq!

The three Hebrew children were in the fire in Iraq (Jesus had been in Iraq also as the fourth person in the fiery furnace!)

Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in Iraq.

Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the Jews captive into Iraq.
Ezekiel preached in Iraq.

The wise men were from Iraq.

Peter preached in Iraq.

The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is called Babylon, which was a city in Iraq!

And you have probably seen this one. Israel is the nation most often mentioned in the Bible. But do you know which nation is second? It is Iraq! However, that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The names used in the Bible are Babylon, Land of Shinar, and Mesopotamia.

The word Mesopotamia means between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The name Iraq, means country with deep roots. Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant country in the Bible. No other nation, except Israel, has more history and prophecy associated it than Iraq.

And also... This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages... The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible) Koran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace. (Note the verse number!)”

“About 95% of this is False
http://www.cresourcei.org/urbanlegend.html

It's all just Christian twisting facts and justificationism to try and fit the Iraq War into their "God's Plan" to somehow show it is biblicaly 'morale' to be doing what Bush is doing.

Why? ... so they don't have to face the REALITY that they are slaughtering people so that Exxon and Jr.'s little corrupt oil monopolist alliance in Houston can control oil prices (higher) than arab's sell them at.

It's pure B.S., the verse number isn't even right and his from Chapter 9 of a university text (not the Qu'ran), LOL.
last edited: 1/18/05 2:38:38 PM”

“Snopes On this:

Claim: Quranic verse speaks of the "wrath of the Eagle cleansing the lands of Allah."

Status: False.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/quran.asp”

“Interesting. Some of it I already knew from early middle eastern geography but thanks for the post TD.”

“Mesopotamian flood story predates the one in the Bible by hundreds if not thousands of years.... Plagiarism! <grin>”

“ya know, i just think we dont talk enough about iraq on trailtalk”

“Well there's hiking.... then there's massive death and deeeeeestruction. Take your pick.”

“This comment "About 95% of this is False" is 100% false. Out of the 20 or so things listed 12 were labeled as false, so this makes the list more like 60% or so false, not like I care either way. I tend to throw away bulk emails and defintely dont base my theology,worldview or stance on foreign policy on emails.”

“Funny. When I was in Bahrain several people went to see "The Tree of Life". When I asked what it was I was told it was THE tree from the garden of eden and it was the oldest tree in existence. I never really believed the garden of eden bit but I found it humorous, years later, to find out the oldest tree we know of is named Methuselah and is found in the California White Mountains. The biblical name was the final touch of irony! People will believe just about anything when it comes to blind faith. I guess thats the point though.”

“Surely, folks don't actually believe that that is the garden's tree of life beyond being a tourist attraction. Anyway, as many of you noted and I observed there are many inaccuracies in the above email. However, it is interesting to see how biblical history and early civil history and archeological finds often complement each other.”

“Sounds about as accurate as the BS you get from the evening news about how bad it's going in Iraq.”

“I agree with Birch here. Actually, a lot that gets scored as "false" is "debatable" or "possible, but there is no real evidence." For example, there has been a lot of speculation that the Garden of Eden is in Iraq... so I'd call that speculative - not false. So, "95% false" is itself false.

Thanks for the link though, TT, it was informative.

I gotta add that the 9:11 prophecy is such obvious BS, its hard to see how any one could believe the Quaran would have a verse about anyone having "cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace."
last edited: 1/18/05 7:24:48 PM”

“Wow, things are going well in Iraq?

Thanks for the update, I don't watch the evening news.”

“American soldiers are IN Iraq. Plus a few other nation's soldiers.

100% accurate.”

“Koo.. I had a suspicion -- I will read the link.. Thanks for the information.

Some girl my wife works with was passing it around school.. all fired up about it.. so I just passed it on.. figuring you "experts" would dismantle it for me.. which you did.. so koo..I will pass along the rebuttal.. and read up on it some more!

OK.. back.. and still had time to edit the thread.. good reading.. the guy sounds like he knows his stuff. Never heard of the Christian Resource Institute -- but since he quoted John Wesley, I'm assuming he has Methodist roots.
last edited: 1/19/05 7:38:32 AM”

“Fired-up?

Maybe it confirmed her superstitions.

1.
An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.

2.
a.A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
b.A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.
c.Idolatry”

“oh no doubt, Mark... Janna (my wife's friend) is a good girl.. nice.. good person.. I'd dont see her as a bible thumping non-thinking lemming either -- she just prolly saw this.. didn't know any better.. and got excited when it seemed to authenticate what most likely a lot of us would care to believe -- that we are headed down the Armageddon path (QUICKLY)..


The email made for interesting reading -- but I didn't have time to look any of it up. That's why I have asked folks to post the source of their comments as much as possible to help us determine if they are full of sheeeeeit, or pretty rational.

Religion is one of those subjects I don't feel completely comfortable talking about online -- so I don't know how much you'll pry out of me, but I appreciate the fact the TrailTurtle took the time to debunk it.


(found this on the CRI website)

Officers

CRI/Voice is supervised by a five member Board of Directors:

Dennis R. Bratcher, Executive Director. He has earned the PhD in Biblical studies from Union Theological Seminary in Virginia, and has served as an educator in the church for more than 25 years. He is an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene.

Monte Nabors, Co-Pastor, Light Church, Church of the Nazarene, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA. He has earned the DMin and has served in pastoral ministry for over 25 years. He is an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene.

Judy Archer, president and general manager of a business in Moore, Oklahoma, USA. She has been active in various local church ministries for many years.

Ron Benefiel, president of Nazarene Theological seminary. He has earned the PhD in sociology, and has served as both pastor and educator.

Roger Hahn, Professor of New Testament at Nazarene Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. He has earned the PhD in Biblical Studies, has served in pastoral ministry, and more than 25 years in educational ministry.
Global and International Vision

While representing a particular theological tradition (Wesleyan), the goal of CRI/Voice is ecumenical and global. In this context, ecumenical refers to a deeply held commitment to the unity of the Christian Faith that transcends particular expressions of it, as reflected in the New Testament as well as in the writings of John Wesley (see Catholic Spirit and John Wesley on Differences of Opinion Among Christians). CRI/Voice is also committed to the Church as an International Community of Faith united by that Faith amid the diversity of culture, nationality, and history.

Because of that commitment, CRI/Voice will actively seek quality non-English resources from around the world to make available in English. We will also make resources available in languages other than English as we develop the resources and capability to translate the material. It is our hope that this interchange of resources will help forge the Church into a truly International Church. To facilitate this, CRI/Voice is assisted by an International Advisory Committee.
last edited: 1/19/05 7:50:44 AM”

“Oy vey !!”

“lmbo.

I had to look it up.”

“I think this threat of "Armageddon" is more the machinations of the petroleum industry as the world oil reserves approach "peak".

It's a mad scramble to make money while the gettin's good.

Or, I'm totally wrong and will go directly to hell.....do not pass Go, etc”

“#&%!$ Iraq.”

“:)... have to get to work.. ttyl.”

“I like the Daily Show's "Mess-O-Patamia".”

“MARKO you are so right. This is all about peak oil. The President has said himself that there is no link between Iraq and 9-11. He has also declared that there are no WMD's in Iraq. We are there to secure oil reserves in the middle east, we have no choice. I love this big blue planet and I love clean air and water. I also love to drive my boats and cars. In order to keep fuel in my toys, I go to work and get paid. I give that money to big oil companies which give campaign money to the canidates of their choice. Peak oil is when production capacity meets consumer demand. With China and the developing countries pulling on the pipeline now, the day we hit peak oil is getting closer and closer. The body bags and cash will continue to flow with the oil. There can be no peace till we find energy resources that are renewable and cheap. Sorry to state it so bluntly but that is the sugarfree facts.
last edited: 1/20/05 7:28:09 AM”

“These Bozos have made a Mess-O-Patamia!!”

“> Out of the 20 or so things listed 12 were
>labeled as false, so this makes the list more
>like 60% or so false

On re-reading the comments in detail, agreed, it's about 60% false...

Much like Christianity, but of course the Bible is still inerrant and "100% true", LOL.
last edited: 1/20/05 8:01:34 AM”

“Actually.. on your comment TrailTurtle.. We do not possess the original manuscript for a single book in the Bible. What we have are copies of copies of copies many times over--and in several different languages.

The oldest manuscript support for the Old Testament is the Qumran material, i.e., the Dead Sea Scrolls. The scrolls date to between the end of the third century B.C. and A.D. 70. Therefore, they were written a bare minimum of three hundred years after the last old Testament book was composed.

Next to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest extant text of the Old Testament is the Septuagint (also known as the LXX), preserved in codices from the fourth and fifth centuries A.D. (Achtemeier 1985:1040-1041). The oldest of the remaining Old Testament manuscripts date to no earlier than the ninth century A.D.

As for the New Testament, there is one second-century fragment of John\'s gospel known as the Rylands fragment, but it is very small and contains only a few verses. The earliest substantial manuscript support for the New Testament comes from the Chester Beatty papyri, which date to the third century. These papyri contain most, but not all, of the books of the New Testament. The first complete New Testament manuscript is the Codex Sinaiticus, which dates to the fourth century. Therefore, the oldest papyri containing most of the books of the New Testament were written at least 120 years after the originals were composed, and the oldest complete New Testament manuscript postdates the original autographs by at least 220 years.

Biblical inerrancy is the view that the Bible is the Word of God and is in every detail infallible and without error. This view was ably expressed in 1978 in the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, an interdenominational statement of evangelical scholars and leaders to defend Biblical inerrancy against the trend toward liberal and neo-orthodox conceptions of Scripture.

It proclaims: \"The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible\'s own; and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the Church.\" Article XII states: \"We affirm that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.\"

Biblical inerrancy is one of the tenets of Fundamentalist Christianity. There\'s been much written about that. For example: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-inerrancy.html

Question: \"Does the inerrancy of the Bible only apply to the original manuscripts?\"



Answer: This is truly a difficult issue to grasp. Only the original autographs (original manuscripts written by the apostles, prophets, etc.) are under the divine promise of inspiration and inerrancy. The books of the Bible, as they were originally written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21), were 100% inerrant, accurate, authoritative, and true. There is no Biblical promise that copies of the original manuscripts would equally be inerrant or free from copyist errors. As the Bible has been copied thousands of times over thousands of years, some copyist errors have likely occurred.

More information: http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm

What Christians really believe

A book by George A. Marsden, \"Reforming Fundamentalism\" quotes a survey of student belief at one of the largest Evangelical seminaries in the US. 2 The poll indicated that 85% of the students \"do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.\"

This book also lists the results of a poll conducted by Jeffery Hadden in 1987 of 10,000 American clergy. 3 They were asked whether they believed that the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant Word of God in faith, history, and secular matters:
bullet 95% of Episcopalians,
bullet 87% of Methodists,
bullet 82% of Presbyterians,
bullet 77% of American Lutherans, and
bullet 67% of American Baptists said \"No.\"

However, Christians generally are far more supportive of the inerrancy position. The Barna Research Group reported in 1996 that among American adults generally:
bullet 58% believe that the Bible is \"totally accurate in all its teachings\"
bullet 45% believe that the Bible is \"absolutely accurate and everything in it can be taken literally.\"

And more.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

Views Denying Inerrancy

Those who hold opposing views usually point out several problems with using 2 Timothy 3:16 as a \"proof text\":

* This passage is contained in one of the Epistles of Paul. At the time Paul wrote this, the word \"Scripture\" would have referred to the Torah, and possibly other writings found in the Temple in Jerusalem. It would not have referred to the letters that Paul was then writing to the churches.

* Paul never explicitly claimed that everything he wrote was inspired of God. At one point, in 1 Corinthians 7:12, he specifically disclaims that what he is writing is from the Lord, and clearly labels it as his own opinion.

* Using 2 Timothy 3:16 as a proof of Biblical inerrancy is self-referential. Any authors of books could claim that their writings are without error, but the claim is not the proof.

* The statement can be interpreted as merely a definition of \"scripture\", as that which is \"inspired\". It does not identify which works meet this definition of scripture, and thus contains no information in the logical sense.

* Some who have examined the scriptures have reported they find numerous discrepancies between various scriptures. Fundamentalists sometimes dismiss these as inconsequential or unimportant, but that raises the question of whether a truly inerrant writing should contain any errors, even insignificant ones. Either all scripture is without error, or it isn\'t. And because there are passages that seem to be mutually exclusive (that is to say, if one passage is true, the other cannot be), that means that at least some of what is claimed to be part of \"inerrant\" scripture must not be. Pro-inerrancy commentators usually claim that what appear to be inconsistencies are merely misunderstandings on the part of the reader.

* Some who believe in Biblical inerrancy may fail to allow for the possibility of transcription errors or translation errors. Their view is that not only were the scriptures originally inspired by God, but that God has actively intervened through the centuries to make sure that only \"pure\" copies of His word have survived. This is easily refuted by the differences found in early manuscripts, let alone the many differences found in modern translations.

* Belief in Biblical inerrancy relies upon a relatively narrow view of the words variously translated as \"inspired by God\" or \"God-breathed.\" There is nothing in these words to suggest that God dictated the Bible, word-for-word. Even in the Book of Revelation, the author (John) is shown visions and then instructed to write what he has seen. There is no suggestion that God gave John the actual words to write, but rather that He inspired John (in this case, using visions). Some who view the Bible as totally inerrant may view the authors of the various books of the Bible as mere stenographers.

* This belief also relies on the view that those who decided which books would be in our modern Bibles chose correctly, keeping only the \"inspired\" books and discarding only those that were not similarly \"inspired.\" Since the process of deciding what would become Biblical canon occurred hundreds of years after the time those books were written, the belief ignores the political and social considerations that may have influenced these decisions. Even if those decisions are accepted as in themselves inspired, it remains to ask how the other (early Catholic/Orthodox, not Protestant) decisions and opinions of the very same people can then be safely disregarded. If God inspired them infallibly in their decisions about the Bible, would he withhold his Spirit when other matters were under discussion by the same people?”

“BAGHDAD, Iraq - Top U.S. officials strongly condemned the bombing of a revered Shiite shrine Wednesday, calling it a desperate and despicable act designed to foment sectarian strife.
"Given the historic, cultural and religious importance of this shrine, this attack is a crime against humanity," the U.S. ambassador and the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said in a joint statement. "The Shrine should be rebuilt and the United States will contribute to its reconstruction."

A pair of bombs Wednesday morning caused extensive damage to the golden dome of the Askariya shrine in Samarra, triggering protests and reprisal attacks against Sunni mosques.

"This desperate and despicable act shows that terrorists stop at nothing and care for nothing," U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and Gen. George Casey said in the statement.

They urged calm, saying: "Those who commit acts of sectarian violence in the wake of this tragic event are only serving the interests of the terrorists."

In Washington, White House press secretary Scott McClellan also condemned the attack.

"On behalf of the American people, the president extends our deepest condolences to the people of Iraq for this brutal attack on one of Iraq's holiest sites," McClellan said.

"The terrorists continue to show they are enemies of all faiths and of all humanity," he said. "The world must stand together, united against them, and the world must continue to stand firmly behind the people of Iraq."

He also appealed for restraint in the wake of the attack.

"Violence can only contribute to what the terrorists sought to achieve by this act," he said.

The attack came at a sensitive time in talks to form a new government in Iraq, which have become bogged down over differences between Shiite, Sunni Arab and Kurdish parties. It was the third major attack against a Shiite target in as many days.

"This is a critical moment for Iraq," Khalilzad and Casey said. "We call on all Iraqis to unite against terror and violence. Coming together in unity to condemn this barbaric act and working for Iraq's salvation will be the right response."

A Shiite political leader in Iraq said Khalilzad shared some responsibility for the bombing because of his criticism of Shiite-led security forces.

Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim, head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, cited Khalilzad's statement at a press conference Monday that America would not continue to support institutions run by sectarian groups with links to armed militias.

"For sure, the statements made by the ambassador were not made in a responsible way and he did not behave like an ambassador," al-Hakim told reporters. "These statements were the reason for more pressure and gave green lights to terrorist groups. And, therefore, he shares in part of the responsibility."

Khalilzad has urged the Iraqis to form a unity government in which nonsectarian figures control the ministries of Defense, which runs the army, and Interior, which is responsible for the police.

The current interior minister, Bayan Jabr, is a member of al-Hakim's party. His commandos have been accused by Sunni Arabs of widespread human rights abuses against Sunni civilians. (off yahoo news)




The question is why should the US help rebuild this shrine. We didn't damage it. More money wasted when it could go to things that need repaired in this country”

“WHY is the question about everything in Iraq.


WHY, WHY, WHY !!!!”

“The question is why should the US help rebuild this shrine. We didn't damage it. More money wasted when it could go to things that need repaired in this country”
Ewker
12:35:26 PM
2/22/06
ignore this user

It's good PR, which may help build more trust in the US from the Iraqis.”

“It has barely been making news for more than four hours, Ewk! And we're throwing money at it already. I don't remember them moving so fast when Katrina hit!

What a frikkin' joke!”

“It's good PR, which may help build more trust in the US from the Iraqis.”
lumberzac
11:44:24 AM
2/22/06

isn't American soldiers being killed in Iraq enough PR”

“good thing terroists never hide themselves of stock piles of weapons in shrines and mosques. [sarcasm]”

“The US troops are an occupying force that many Iraqis don't trust and many radicals are willing to kill our soldiers because of it. By helping rebuild this shrine it might convince some of the Iraqis that the US troops are not the bad guys. This in turn might lead to less violence and prevent more US soldiers from being killed. In doing this though the US must be careful not to show favoritism to one group over another.”

“[in my best Dr. Evil voice] "Riiight..."”

“Nice thought, Zac! But, a stretch, at best...”

“Isukio shabito nama! [translation: "zip it!"]”

“may I rant??

Those people are frikin NUTS and don't care how much we help them !! they are not to be trusted and will more than likley shake you hand with one hand and blow you away with the other !! They HATE us and will use anything we do as an reason to kill more soldiers......arhhhh bastards !!!!! (sorry )”

“Simon says "Shhhh!".”

“:(”

“LOL! Sorry. I couldn't get out of Dr. Evil mode there. DD is right. They hate us and they always will. How can ya trust a religion that says it's OK to lie to people that are outside of your religion?

even when some of these countries have it written into there charters, "We hate you, we do not recognize you and we will not stop until you are destroyed." we still coddle them and try to be buddies.

Time to wake up folks.”

“kill them all, let God sort them out !!



Sorry again...not a nice thought. " DD" is in nightmare mode today...”

“I realize that this is a touchy subject. The sad part is we are only getting a small portion of the story from over there.
In the early 1980's we became involved in a war in Nicaragua, whether it was reported or not, and Americans Died.
The challenge was to try and create ONE stable government in the area. Now today it is totally debateable if we did it or not.
The truth is (and I get this from friends who are returning, and people who will not return) we are making a difference in the 14th century thinking. Notice how after the free elections in Iraq we started seeing changes....open local elections in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon threw out the Syrians (the Last Baathist country).
Is it worth it....don't know. I do know this. In November 20, 1943 my uncle landed on a little spit of land no bigger than NY Central Park. In 72 hours it would claim 1500 American Lives. At the time my uncle said, they really didn't know why in the He!! the Government wanted this spit of land. But eventually it became a part of a plan of overall destruction of the Japanese Empire.
My uncle left the ship with a company of 80 or so Marines. I believe he said 20 or 30 made it back.

DD, I know how hard your loss has hit you. And I realize that the Major media slant is WAAAY left but I have to believe differently. I have friends over there. The stories are incredible of the Good we are doing.
I think one of my classmates said it right. "Would we rather fight them over there or over here?'
Guys this is an actual World War. Check it out. Indonesia, Egypt, Isreal, France, Spain, Italy, Malaysia...etc etc. Each battle is from the twisted version of Islam.
In one thread I wrote a story of 1936 when Hitler went into the Rhineland. Even his most positive Generals wrote "If the British or French send so much as a Brigade against us we will be defeated."
I wonder today if we had known that if it would have been worth a few thousand lives to save the world from the next 9 years of hell.”

“Check this out [url]http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050909_2664.html

One Million Dinars for the Katrina Survivors...yeah they really hate us.
last edited: 2/22/06 1:03:38 PM”

“Good point XL.....

the good of the many out ways the good of the few, or the one. spock...smart guy ;)”

“Day, trust me, I know it is hard sometime with this media. Hell I live in a Military Town I have so many friends who keep going over it is hard to understand.
In 1980's we were in France on a tour. In Paris and the big cities they hated Americans (the men did (LOL)).
But when we got in the small towns there was a statue to the American Soldier in almost every village. We were regaled by stories of the heroic soldiers (stories the American Media even of that day would never tell). One of the Older Sgts in my unit had never met his father. His dad was with the Big Red One (first Army) he had died in one of those nameless towns.
One evening we stopped for dinner in a small town. The resturant owner saw the 1 on my Sgts right sleeve (he had seen combat in Vietnam with the 1st) and he came out from behind the counter with an old picture of him as a boy with some men from the First. We don't know who the men were, but my Sgt told me a few months later that that was the first time in his life he had understood why his father died.”

“There is a differentiation though, between world opinion of individual Americans and a hatred or dislike for a particular administration. (Admittedly any policy America does is likely to be viewed with skepticism, but after the past five years this has become extreme).

Blaming the media though, is the easy way out. Shooting the messenger is a way of not confronting real problems and huge policy and strategic mistakes.
last edited: 2/22/06 1:27:53 PM”

“And I'm not saying the neocon cabal ideology that took America into this was won't turn out to be justified. Spreading democracy is a good thing, and is in America's national interest, but I think the jury is still out on whether you can impose democracy on another people. It's ok when you'e got 150,000 troops there - but democracy is about more than just voting.”

“Y2...shooting the messenger? When you have major media outlets ADMITTING TO ALTERING THE STORY? No there is difference. Trust me, in 1982 the world quaked at the thought of REAGAN and his "Brinksmanship" but you know what? I was in Europe in 1979, and we were disliked and insulted. I was there in 1984 and we were disliked but respected.
You cannot make them all like you (there is proverb about pleasing people) but if they don't like me but they respect me, I am fine with that.
I have that problem in my job. I work in a rough area. Now I can be nice and be pushed around...or I can do what I have to and they respect me but don't particularly like me.”