Atheist Loses Bid to Ban Inaugural Praye r

“http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=558&u=/ap/20050119/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_inauguration_prayer_2&printer=1

.....Two lower courts had rejected Newdow's request to ban the prayer, suggesting he couldn't show actual injury in hearing it. In his ruling last week, U.S. District Judge John Bates also said the court did not have authority to stop the president from inviting clergy to give a religious prayer at the ceremony.


Attorneys representing Bush and his inaugural committee had argued that prayers have been widely accepted at inaugurals for more than 200 years and that Bush's decision to have a minister recite the invocation was a personal choice the court had no power to prevent. ......”

“SS, you are so late on all this news. You must keep up, is old age getting you down ;)”

“Kinf of sad how one person's freedom of expressing faith is always precluded by someone else's so called freedom FROM that expression.

I thought liberals liked freedom?”

“Yea Nigal, and it's the Dem's continuing support of people like this that will keep them out of office. Get a clue Dems. Pick your battles.”

“You must be reading something between the lines; I don't see the word "Liberal" anywhere.”

“Frnkly, I didn't think he had a prayer! Ooohh haahhaahhaa. I kill myself!! lmao!! A prayer!!”

“I get so sick of this fictisious freedom from religion bullchit. Freedom means that sometimes others are going to say and do things you don't agree with.”

“Aero- Newdow is not just some nobdoy. He is well known as a leftist liberal.”

“aero didn't bother to read the link.”

“Newdow's a real great guy. He even uses his children for his own political crusades.”

“Newdow gained widespread publicity two years ago after winning his pledge case before the San-Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which ruled that public schools violated the separation of church and state by having students mention God.”

“> Kinf of sad how one person's freedom of
> expressing faith is always precluded by
> someone else's so called freedom FROM that
> expression

I personally don't care who or what Bush has speak at his inauguration.

The only concern I would have is if the priest was paid a speaking fee with taxpayer dollars.

I don't want to see religion go away, but I do want to see it taxed. Despite proclamations of 'morality' from church's, they very rarely do any social work helping people.

We had some proselytizers come to my house a couple weeks back wanting to bring the word of the 'good lord' to me and invite me to go to their church. I told them no I won't go to their church, but if they are welcome to come for donations to help the poor or build houses any time any day. Needless to say... never heard from them again... LOL.

That's not to imply all church's don't do good. Things like Jimmy Carter's Habitat for Humanities are church-linked and do unbelievable good for society.

But I have yet to see a *Republican* church do a damned thing for anyone other than line their own pockets.

So I see religion/church as nothing more than a business and it's revenue should be taxed ... if only to help pay down the deficits created from their hate of arabs and military slaughtering programs that us "God-Hating Pagans" are stuck paying for.”

“The troll speaks again, and again, and again....”

“No shortage of lines from you either... nor any shortage of personal attacks / name-calling.

Well - you are definitely in the right party.”

“troll”

“SS, prove he is a troll..lol
last edited: 1/19/05 3:49:49 PM”

“troll”

“A leftist liberal, ... now that really is something.

Has anyone ever seen a rightist liberal or a leftist conservative?”

“Quick, lock the doors and close the windows Matilda, there's a leftist liberal out here!”

“Is that not you, Geo? Neither 'side' seems to claim you on TT. ;-)
last edited: 1/19/05 4:00:44 PM”

“The original Pledge of Allegiance had no reference to God in it.


It was a rather modern inclusion in the 1950s.

Not suprisingly. The motivation for inclusion was political. Eisenhower trying to appeal to the conservatives.

I don't understand why people persist in believing that the underpinnings of this country are somehow intrinsicly linked to Christianity and belief in a christian god.

Its not. This is not a country founded in religion, by religion or for religion. Neither Jefferson nor Adams approached anythign like the religious fervor of the right wing today. Heck . . .Jefferson was accused of being an aetheist time and time again.

Franklin started his OWN religion.


The greatest minds of the Founding Fathers did NOT put their faith in the same concept of a christian god that is so popular with our current president.

It is espressly a country that provide for freedom of religion. Any kind of religion, as Nigal has already ably pointed out.

I don't care what you worship, and I respect your right to worship, just don't bother me with it.

Don't pass laws that promulgate YOUR religions concepts of morality (see abortion and anti-gay marriage), don't try to make me swear fealty to your god (see court oaths or the pledge as it now stands).


Cause see . . .as far as I am concerned, god s no more real than santa claus. Its a big power grab fiction that you dumba$$es have bought hook line and sinker. And I choose not to follow along.”

“typical, lump a wacko like nedrow and call him a "liberal". i'm a liberal and i don't support his lawsuit.

maybe i should play the same game Nigal, is David Duke just your typical conservative? maybe i should pick and choose a corrupt, racist Republican and call him a conservative, as if he or she represents all conservatives.

all this "liberal" flaming is childish and tiresome.

Webster's Dictionary tells me "liberal" means to be open-minded, favoring progress, giving freely, not restricted.

hell, I guess I'm a proud american liberal. go USA!”

“There's hope for 'liberals' yet.”

“Waiter, there's a leftist liberal in my soup!!!”

“Son, your mom and I are sending you off to school. Whatever you do, don't talk to any leftist liberals. They're bad bad people.”

“"Despite proclamations of 'morality' from church's, they very rarely do any social work helping people. "

Are you out of your mind? I suggest you go help out in this type of capacity and see if there are any churchfolk there. I suspect it will be over 50%.”

“So much for "reaching out" ppphhhhtttt!”

“He was a leftist liberal
That mean ol' Stagger Lee”

“The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

See also www.PledgeQandA.com




Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.
What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'”

“So. A conservative Irish Catholic organization drove the inclusion of "under God".



I simply leave it out when I say the pledge.

I love my country. I certainly have allegiance to it.

And my country is certainly not "under" any "god".”

“Those prolife people are really evil aren't they?
Prolife! The Nerve!”

“What Bush does at his inuguration is his choice.


I don't give two hoots whether he has a invocation/benediction or not.

The man is a Christian of deep faith, it is his day, many folks who elected him are Christians . . .its a celebration of HIS victory . . .

let him have a prayer if he wants one.


I gots no problem with that.”

“Let him have the prayor... so long as taxpayers aren't paying the priest for the service (at least until the church's [businesses] start paying taxes).”

“troll”

“Trailturtle - you didn't answer me. Have you ever done any volunteer type of work? If so, you'd see that churches do support this. I suspect your involvement is limited to Cleveland Teachers Unions, Buddaha.”

“LOL... cleveland teachers unions?

In terms of 'charity' work mostly it's monetary gifts with emphasis on environmental concerns. I'm a huge supporter of NWF and also support NRDC and some others. But I also have done trail clean-up and a couple things with Sierra club.

I suspect as I get older I'll become a full-blown environmental nazi.”

“Buddha Bear is a negotiator for Cleveland Teachers Unions, but you already know that.

Your origianl reference is that churches don't do anything on social type issues. Heck, I'll bet 50% of our churches budget is supporting those issues, and I'm not talking about abortion clinic protesting. I'm talking about money to help feed and cloth people. I asked the question because you say that they don't do those things, yet you don't do those things. I do those things and see probably 80%+ of the people involved, also involved in church.”

“Well day... is your church a 'Republican' / pro-Bush church?

Half the people going to the anti-war protests are actually bussed in on Christian buses and things, so I am by no means blasting all church's. I am blasting the particular variety we have all over the place here in rural GA.

In 4 years of living here I've not heard of a single event to help the poor, etc. and I have asked my fellow Godly neighbors...

But, I may live in an odd part of the country. Here they spend the church money on advertising, 100 foot high concert halls, Plasma Televisions, and 100,000 Watt Speaker Systems...

I guess they can't prove the existence of God so they are trying to simulate it, LOL.”

“Who said anything about war protest? You said social issues. You stated that churches didn't help on those, yet you don't help either, so how the heck would you know what the churches are doing?”

“BTW, I am a pretty giving person, primarily for the selfish reason of being able to tell myself I am a giving, LOL. So I don't know if that qualifies. But I donated to the Tsunamai / Red Cross when Europe was #&%!$ing that Bush was being cheap and Amazon put up their web-site and made it easy.

But, I suppose, my biggest 'gift to the poor' is my political activism which favors adjusting tax and policy models that dis-incentivize "inheritance babies" and incentivize working poor / provide opportunities for them to get ahead.

The poor in this country are getting their a$$ slaughtered by Jr.... several MILLION new people/families fell below the poverty line in last 3-4 years. The single most practical way to help the poor is to oppose Bush in my opinion. Simply stopping/slowing down his policies (which are made to farm the poor for cheap factory labor to support his manufacturing base) will help them a lot.

So I guess I consider myself 'charitable' because I'm a Democrat but should definitely be a GOP if I looked at my tax bracket. But, again, I'm probably selfish in that also... because I do believe the economy overall does much much better in an open society and a bazaar where it's not crony-deals and anti-entrepreneur, pro-monopoly decision making that leads the way.

So, the biggest gift of charity I offer the poor... is opposing Republican monopolist/poor-people farming policies, and to be honest... and it happens that I believe, from an economic perspective, the economy does better and I 'ride the wave' with it.

No republican can call themselves charitable by simple virtue of the government policies they support. I don't care how much they they give ... the way they vote betrays the reality of their view of just f*cking over the poor.
last edited: 1/19/05 5:15:58 PM”

“> Who said anything about war protest?

If you've ever been to one you'd find the protests are protesting the war because it screws over the poor... That message is prevalant all over the place at them, but conveniently never makes it to the monopoly media.”

“The troll goes on and on and on, while still afraid of answering the question.”

“So, basically, you're saying you don't do anything hands on and that churches don't do anything hands on based on your first hand experience. Nice.

Now that, that discussion is over, if that's your beliefs then that's great. It takes all kinds to get work done. It takes money and it takes support. You do those, but don't blast someone for "very rarely do any social work helping people" when you don't have a freakin' clue what you're talking about.”

“And what question is that? Church's? I have been perfectly clear about them, not my fault if you are still suffering from an intellectual deficit that causes your brain to stammer "troll" "troll" "troll" in response to anything that's said.

So I'll make it simple for you:


- Republican Church's Spend 50% Giving to Charities. BULL#&%!$

- 'True' Jesus-Like Church's (a very small minority) do wonderful things for the poor and other charities.
last edited: 1/19/05 5:26:09 PM”

“> "very rarely do any social work helping
> people" when you don't have a freakin' clue
> what you're talking about

My personal efforts to help the poor are equal to the efforts of maybe a dozen Republican church's in my county, and someone could pick them at random.

And yeah, I'm going to KEEP attacking Republican church's over and over again because they don't deserve tax exempt status. They don't do a DAMN THING for the poor, not a damn thing in this county. Their top expense items are Plasma Televisions, sound systems, and funded field trips grabbing 10-years olds to see "The Passion" in order to manufacture new recruits.

I'm going to bash these pricks over and over again because they are pushing fiscally wreckless policies that cost huge amounts of money and they don't even pay taxes!! I'll shut up when they have to get a business license and pay taxes, but they do not do a bit of good.

This does not mean all church's mind you. There do exist 'true Jesus' church's, but they are few and far between. That may be the church you go to, but it is not my experience here in suburban GA where they don't do squat, maybe 1-5% of revenue, if that, in fact, they probably don't even do that.

They'll take the tithings and then hit them up for more to 'give to the poor' and everyone will chip in $20 or something, and then they'll all vote for tax increases on these poor people, freeze wages, and cut them off from healthcare.

I'm definitely going to criticize them. Over and over again until they *EARN* their tax-exempt status.

Some do, but the vast majority don't... mostly they teach bigotry, gay hating, and they tell each other how wonderfully 'good' and 'morale' they are.

It's a total FRAUD.
last edited: 1/19/05 5:30:47 PM”

“LOL, troll”

“"They will not compromise, or listen to reason, but focus rather on flamming (calling other people trolls, for example). From what I understand of the concept of trolling, it's not a person who happens to aggresively champion a POV, or have an alternate interpretation of whats best for an article. Strong sentiment is not a bad thing. Were all a bit of a troll, in some small way or another, whenever we dislike someone, or do something theoretically disturbing. Whats important is that we compromise where neccessary, and resort to references and arbitration rather than name calling and hatefullness when we attempt to handle these cituations we happen to have some feelings about. Many trolls are simply vandals. But from what I understand, a troll is someone who fights over something they do not care about. They are rather interested in harassing a certain user." Jack 12:27, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

From Wikipedia - Definition 'Troll'”

“It's bad enough to be called a troll, but if you were a leftist liberal troll, now that would really be something. Or even worse, a leftist liberal commie pinko socialist troll. That would be the absolute worst.”

“I don't want to see religion go away, but I do want to see it taxed. Despite proclamations of 'morality' from church's, they very rarely do any social work helping people.
TrailTurtle
3:37:09 PM
1/19/05

LOL, what a completely uninformed statement.”

““Yea Nigal, and it's the Dem's continuing support of people like this that will keep them out of office. Get a clue Dems. Pick your battles.”
StoveStomper
3:15:38 PM
1/19/05

You are the one pickin' the fight here Stove Pipe.

I could give a rat's ass about this issue.”