Credit Where Credit's Due

“I know no one wants to here this but Bush has proposed raising the death benefits to troop’s surviving family from $12,000 to $100,000-$250,000.

Good on ya Georgie.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6891515/”

“Yep, that Bush is pure evil. ;-)”

“I am all in favor of it. Seems to me that was being discussed a few months back by Congress.”

“I great Carmac predicts that MarkO and Tilt will counter that if Bush wasn't killing so many innocent young people that he wouldn't need to up the insurance.

Carmac has spoken.”

“Veteran's groups have been lobbying congress for quite some time. Hey, kudos to Congress and to Bush for signing it. I don't mind giving credit to those involved. That's done! Now, I can get back to all the other things that I can't stand about him...”

“Dayhiker, I figured they'd go the "he must be feeling guilty" route. LOL!”

“Wrong again!!!!!!”

“It's a good thing. Some states had started working on provisions of their own - I think New Mexico passed one (I could be mixed up about which state passed one) partly hoping to embarass the federal governemnt into doing something. It seems to have worked.”

“That's awful kind of him. It's the least he could do since he unnecessarily put so many people in harm's way. And I'm sure $250,000 will make the grieving families feel so much better.
>
George "Bring It On" Bush is a real piece of work. I didn't think I could dislike anyone more than Bill Clinton. I was wrong....so, so, so very wrong.
last edited: 2/01/05 11:13:50 AM”

“Toda!”

“If you meant "Tada" then I'm happy I could oblige you and the Great Carnak. Hey, I just want to make sure Georgie gets credit for all he has done.”

“Soldiers don't get paid much to die and thier families should get enough to help them keep going and pick up the pieces of their lives.
It's only right to do so.

But...

Assuming maximum payout. 1000 dead at 250000 a head = a quarter billion.

That's a lot of cash. What's getting cut to pay for it? Or are we just adding that to the deficiet column in the ledger?”

“dayhiker,
Wish in one hand.........

Hey, solitary beat me to it.

It's about time they did that.

Too bad it took embarassing the administration to do it.”

“I didn't wish anywhere, just predicting the response. Personally, I'm shocked that the amount was only $12k whether we're at war or not.

$100+ would be great. Picture a young mother with 2 kids. She's maybe 25 and a hs grad. 100k+ would at least have a chance for her to work part time and go to school part time and wind up with a 2 or maybe 4 year degree. It'd be hard, but it puts her in a much better situation.”

“PS. Feeling better, unfortunatly isn't really the point. You obviously can't put a number on life, but you can step up to the plate to assist those left behind. Heck, back when Britain was a colonial power, you got squat. Mr. Hopkins was a common joke/nickname for folks who'd lost a limb and were begging in the streets.”

“I heard this this morning, toward the end of the article it was stated that they're doing this to get more people to enlist and to stay in the reserves.

Don't get me wrong, I feel our servicemen deserve all this and more. But, if they think people enlist to get life insurance, I want to know what world they're living in.”

“shoot, during the Great War, you were discharged where you were. How you got home was up to you.”

“Or are we just adding that to the deficiet column in the ledger?”
humanpackmule
2:41:49 PM
2/01/05

yes we are. hey don't worry about it we will let our kids and grandkids worry about it”

“Funny.
If I did the same I'd go to jail.”

“I would think it would come more in the form of a pension payment rather than a big fat check.”

“Maybe they should just send an apology letter saying, "I'm sorry your spouse is dead but he/she died valiantly defending this nation while fighting a war in another country that did not pose a serious threat to our well being. Oops. My sincerest apologies, GW"

Also, children can collect on the Social Security benefits of the deceased parent. At 75% of the full benefit amount the parent is entitled to I feel the families are provided for. More money is not going to change the fact people are dying for nothing.”

“Fine with me.”

“$100+ would be great. Picture a young mother with 2 kids. She's maybe 25 and a hs grad. 100k+ would at least have a chance for her to work part time and go to school part time and wind up with a 2 or maybe 4 year degree. It'd be hard, but it puts her in a much better situation.”
dayhiker
3:09:28 PM
2/01/05

When a soldier is killed his/her dependents are given a four year college education, paid in full by Uncle Sam. Its not a huge thing but can really help a family out. I believe the 100k is retroactive to Oct 2001. I hope they get it. I'd even pay higher taxes for it. Our soldiers dont get nearly enough, nor do their families.

"Maybe they should just send an apology letter saying, "I'm sorry your spouse is dead but he/she died valiantly defending this nation while fighting a war in another country that did not pose a serious threat to our well being. Oops. My sincerest apologies, GW"

GW met with my best friends wife for a private meeting after he was killed. He expressed his sympathies to her and the family. He's still a human being wether you like his policies or not.”

“Anyone see how much money Shawn Hannity has raised for the children of slain soldiers? Millions and he's not slowing down.

Wonder what Franken and Gerafalo have done for the troops?”

“Franken has gone on several USO tours into combat zones.

I read that the increased payment is only for troops killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. Some say that is unfair. I wonder if you were injured on the battlefield but died in a hospital in Germany what the deal would be.”

“Let's see, millions of dollars in money raise or a few days spent telling jokes in front of a few thousand GI's. Yep, that's about even.”

“thanks for the info birch. That's interesting about college. I had no idea that was offered.”

“Well… seeing how Hannity is partially responsible for the deaths of over 1,400 US troops based upon false pretenses, it seems the least he could do.”

“I don't even know who Hannity is, but do tell how he's partially responsible for these deaths?”

“He spent 4 hours a day for a year pushing for the invasion. - It worked.

He has blood on his hands whether he'll ever face it or not.”

“So what some radio dude says effects the decision making? If not, then does wanting something make someone complicit?”

“He was instrumental in building public support and you're smart enough to know that.

He helped scare the crap out of people, falsely tie Iraq to 9-11 and make ridiculous comparisons between Saddam and Hitler / anti-war people and Neville Chamberlain.

You guys are supposed to be big on personal responsibility. Suck it up.”

“The vileman has been throwing a hissy fit ever since the Iraq elections went so much better than expected.”

“V - I'm asking. I can honestly say I've never heard him speak. About all I knew was that he's some sort of radio person. Come to think of it, that's still all I know. Are you saying that public support for the war is what led to the war? Funny how no one talks about the 392 times that Saddam ignored the UN and the US til someone said it was time to actually mind.”

“I read that the increased payment is only for troops killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. Some say that is unfair. I wonder if you were injured on the battlefield but died in a hospital in Germany what the deal would be.”
viOliN
11:26:11 AM
2/02/05

Everything I have heard or read about this indicates that an insurance policy change for all soldiers (retro to oct 1 2001 and into the infinite future) will take effect. I dont beleive it is selective to theatre of action (obviously talking combat related here). A differentiation is very fair. There are readily available policies that are quite cheap that even cover combat deaths. PJ's policy was for about 175k.

dayhiker, I honestly never new about the education payment either.
last edited: 2/02/05 1:55:19 PM”

“DH - Do you honestly think Bush would have started this war if the poll numbers had been reversed and something like 70% of Americans opposed it?



birch -

Military chiefs buck Pentagon on extra pay for combat death

Wednesday, February 02, 2005
BY BRADLEY GRAHAM
WASHINGTON POST

WASHINGTON -- Military leaders took issue yesterday with a Pentagon plan that would limit higher death benefits to troops killed in designated combat zones or operations, saying the extra payments should apply to all troops who die on duty.

In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, the vice chiefs of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps welcomed the recommended rise in government payments and life insurance proceeds, calling it a step in the right direction. But each also expressed concern that the Pentagon plan announced Monday is discriminatory, establishing different death benefit packages for troops based simply on where the deaths occur.

"We would do great harm to our service men and women, all of whom serve our great nation magnificently, if we were to make such distinctions," said Gen. William Nyland, assistant commandant of the Marine Corps.

Although the armed forces have a history of paying troops more for combat or hazardous duty, the service leaders drew a line at death benefits.

"In terms of taking care of the men and women that they leave behind, there should be no distinction," said Adm. John Nathman, vice chief of naval operations.

Added Gen. T. Michael Moseley, the Air Force's vice chief of staff: "I believe a death is a death, and our service men and women should be represented that way."

Under the Pentagon plan, a one-time "death gratuity" for beneficiaries, now $12,420, would grow to $100,000 only in cases where the service member died in an area or operation designated by the secretary of defense. Life insurance coverage for service members under a group plan also would rise by $150,000, to $400,000, with the government paying the premiums on the extra amount only for troops in the designated areas or operations.

Both measures would be made retroactive to October 2001, when the Afghanistan war began, allowing a boost in benefits for the families of U.S. troops already killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Pressed on why only certain deaths should be eligible for the increased benefits, David Chu, the undersecretary of defense for personnel, cited the main intent of the initiative.

"Our premier objective here is to provide for those who have fallen in Iraq and Afghanistan, to their surviving families," he said.

But he also said the administration is willing to work with Congress to draft legislation that would authorize broader change.

The Pentagon's plan closely resembles some bills already introduced in Congress that have gathered bipartisan support. Nonetheless, a number of Republicans and Democrats on the committee yesterday joined the call for a more encompassing initiative.

"I obviously support the increases. I think most all of us probably do," said Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), the ranking minority member on the panel. "But I also believe that they should apply to survivors of all members who die on active duty."

The Pentagon has estimated that its plan would cost about $280 million in retroactive payments alone. No estimates were provided yesterday for the cost of extending the enhancements in death benefits to all troops.

Earlier in the week, Pentagon officials said their plan would be included in the 2006 budget request that President Bush is scheduled to submit to Congress next week. But reflecting the urgency now attached to the issue on Capitol Hill, lawmakers said yesterday that action would likely come as part of an $80 billion emergency spending bill being drafted by the White House for the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

“That's a great benefit to have and is sort of how I look at my own life insurance. Do I have enough coverage so that my wife can stay in the house and live while she gets an MBA or something like it?”

“If the available info at the time indicated that it was the correct course of action, then yes, I'd hope he would have. I guess the real question is if the info at the time was sufficient to take action. All this fluff since then doesn't have much bearing on the decision made, because it wasn't know then. I specifically recall ST saying that if we could see the stuff he could see then it would be a slam dunk. It'd be interesting to hear his opinion now, if he could or would give it.”

“Violin,As I said earlier, I would gladly pay higher taxes for something like this. If the pentagon doesnt like the differentiation then apply it to all. I have no prob with a tiered or across the board plan. I am for ANYTHING that gives our troops more. I am not the one complaining about this, you are.”

“birch, isn't it fairly common for married E1's and E2's to be on food stamps?

I'm John Kerry and I support our troops! {I just don't give them any money}
last edited: 2/02/05 2:32:00 PM”

“huh?
last edited: 2/02/05 2:29:56 PM”

“Yeah dayhiker - I remember SuperTroll's comments at that time.”

“Dayhiker, PJ was an e-5 and his family was on WIC for 3 years. Once he made E-6 he made enough plus his son was older (no formula and diapers etc) so he didnt qualify.

Yes Violin you are complaining. You have it veiled as being critical but its beyond that. You lost credibilty when you started criticizing Cheneys apparel and the Holocaust Memorial. Why not be positive for a change, its not like given grieving families more money is a bad thing. Do you think that soldiers families care what bush's motives are (of course in your mind as you have made clear they are less then noble)? They need help. At least this provides that. And it will for ALL future soldiers KIA if it passes, this isnt a bad thing no matter how you portray it.

I tell ya I see how you act now and realize that I was the same way during clintons term and am embarrassed at how I must have looked.

I am no GW groupy or fanatic,he's prolly my least favorite pres in a long time (quite possibly more then Clinton) but at least I am not blinded by my ideology.”

“Wow, E6 to turn the corner on that. By the time you're E6, you're probably 25 or so? Basically, you make less than a cop with more risk. Is that accurate? That's not cop bashing either, they make too little.”

““ “He spent 4 hours a day for a year pushing for the invasion. - It worked.”

Violink is lying again.

He’s not even on 4 hours a day. I thought you once claimed to actually listen to him when you were trying to give this impression that you were like, all open minded and stuff? He’s only on 3 hours a day. You know, as in, “Three hours a day, everyday. That’s all that we ask.”?

It does bring me great pleasure to have admit that Shawn Hannity has such power and sway over what the nation thinks. By doing so you admit his listenership is the largest in the nation during his time slot. What is Franken have power and sway with? The key to the men’s room at AirHead America HQ?”

“Nigal, he was power and sway with the USO folks evidently.”

“Wow, E6 to turn the corner on that. By the time you're E6, you're probably 25 or so? Basically, you make less than a cop with more risk. Is that accurate? That's not cop bashing either, they make too little.”
dayhiker
2:43:22 PM
2/02/05

Dayhiker I dont know what a cop makes but PJ made very little (when you look at hours worked, vs pay and risk)He isnt alone in that at all. He lived a pretty humble lifestyle, he drove a 1991 s-10 for 10 years then bought a little saturn 4 door for the family, they rented a small house off post. He worked as a handi-man on the side clearing brush and painting etc...

By age 25 he wore a hearing aid in one ear and had a bad back which needed surgery, in a crazy twist his surgeon called to schedule his back surgery after he was killed, gotta love the ARmy.”

““Nigal, he was power and sway with the USO folks evidently.”

So he is as powerful as 50 Cent and Henry Rollins then?
last edited: 2/02/05 2:57:57 PM”

“Sounds about the same, except for the physical end of it.

PJ was/is a Ranger, correct? Whenever I think of Rangers I think of reading my first D-Day book in middle school and the stories about climbing that bluff to shut down the 88's. Point Du Hoc? or something similar.”