Unions (not) Working for You and your Fa milies

“Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care for Walmart but I care even less for unions.

Jonquiere, Quebec became the first ever Walmart to unionize and begin the process of committing corporate blackmail against it’s employer. Unfortunately the concessions of the union agreement have caused the store to be unprofitable and Walmart is closing the store. Wonder if the union’s going to be there for these poor people they duped into committing vocational suicide?

Unions, working for you and your family…

http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/walmart/2004/unionized%20store.html”

“Nigal, but unions brought us weekends. Don't you like weekends? Are you un-American?”

“No Buddah Bear, I am not. LOL!

Unions served a purpose once upon a time but they are redundant and uneeded now.”

“Not sure, but I am asking a question here. Is it possible that the unions (in other scenarios besides this ill-fated one) could bring the workers a more living wage than Wal-Mart traditionally pays?”

“"Is it possible that the unions (in other scenarios besides this ill-fated one) could bring the workers a more living wage than Wal-Mart traditionally pays?”

Of course they do. And the rising prices for goods reflect this. My local grocery Krogers used to be the cheapest place to shop. Now their prices are right up there with the highest stores.”

“You're blaming unions for inflation? How about greed on the part of business? Does that not enter the picture?”

“I have been waiting for a thread like this to pop up. I live in a very PRO Union family. Father is President of the Local 697 Electricians. Cousins and Uncles have all worked for it as well.

Growing up, my father always pointed me in the direction of following in his footsteps. Start off as a journeyman, then when he retires, take over for him. It would have been an easy life, but I went another direction.

I was brought up pro union. The union paid my father well and still does. It put food on the table and clothes on my back. I don't have anything real negative to say about it, except one cousin cannot find work. He has been out of work for the last 6 months.

I agree with you Nigal in the sense that at one time, it was needed. I think it still is however, it is tough to pay a Union contractor when you can hire a non union one for half the price.”

“I think Nigals point is that prices have risen faster relative to the other stores. Because of that inflation wouldn't seem to be a factor. The other part would seem to be higher labor cost AND possiblity the push for higher profits. That doesn't necessarily mean greed. Higher profit does not always equal greed.”

““You're blaming unions for inflation? How about greed on the part of business? Does that not enter the picture?”

Did I say unions were the sole reason for the higher prices? Nope. Can we honestly sit here and say though, that if a store unionizes and forces the store to pay people skilled wages for unskilled jobs that the difference isn’t going to be passed onto the consumer? Again, nope.”

“"I agree with you Nigal in the sense that at one time, it was needed. I think it still is however, it is tough to pay a Union contractor when you can hire a non union one for half the price.”

I do feel that the pay should be commensurate to the job. A highly skilled worker should be paid for his skills. But $24 an hour for a wrench turner on a GM line? $9 for a bag boy at the grocery store? No.”

“I understand what you say. But, I sense overkill on villifying the unions...”

“WK - the construction end of things is a great point. The industry is hurting for skilled labor. Where did the older skilled work force get their training? Unions. The average age of masons is currently in the 50's. Can you imagine being 55 and laying about 500 blocks a day? A 12" CMU weighs about 55# each.”

“Do a Google search on Union and corruption and prepare to be amazed. A more narrow search on the teacher's unions will piss ya off too.

http://www.nlpc.org/ucu.asp

http://www.nilrr.org/corruption.htm

http://www.p4du.org/UNION%20CORRUPTION/0000_UNION_CORRUPTION.htm

http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU3/05_14_08.htm”

“Ok...”

“Nigal, I thought it was only the greedy corporate bass turds that took advantage of the weak and downtrodden. Surely the unions don't victimize their own? Are you sure about this?”

“You ought to see how things are around here dayhiker when it comes to construction. They do not use union labor in home construction anymore, it is too expensive. All of the union gigs have gone to the mills and large industry.

You ought to see some of these new homes going up too. Friends of ours just moved into a $550K home. A non union contractor built all the homes in the subdivision. When we were there for a Christmas party (2 weeks after they had moved in) I was re-wiring a lot of the fixtures in the home. The work was shoddy and a 1/4 of it did not even work. It was hard to tell in the house itself, but if you looked at the was the conduit was run in the garage, you would have thought twice about buying the house outright.

These contractors hire unskilled labors and pay them minimum wage.

My new neighbor is one of these guys. He is a good person and I love his family, but he admitted that when he started, he knew nothing. He and a group of guys would be shown how to hang drywall and then they would be turned loose. Same with plumbing and electrical work.

Now he is a wiz, but he admitted several houses he helped with will always have problems because they were getting their feet wet with the work.

My home was built in 1951 and it is a solid as a rock. I would take one of these new homes if you gave it to me for free.”

“Damn. Here in Ohio our houses have to pass an inspection during all phases of the construction. the frming gets done: inspected. Wiring goes in: inspected. Plumbing goes in: inspected.”

“Used to, guys learned sheet rock work by doing closets....and only closets.

When the day comes for us to build my wife is afraid I'll be too hard on the GC. I won't, but there will be a few things I tell him upfront that I specifically want done a certain way. If those things aren't done correctly, then they will be doing it again. I stay the heck away from residential work, but have reviewed enough to see what is typically done wrong and how it looks 20 years later. In grad school I worked for an engineer that did house inspections. The best house and the worst house we inspected were in the same upscale neighborhood.

Also, whoever I hire will not be hired by lowest price. You get what you pay for. You can have something grand that doesn't work, or have something less grand that actually works as intended. Not much of a choice. In construction, and design for that matter we have a saying: Fast, Cheap, Good, pick any two. Residential usually is built on the first two. My office tries to be fast and good.”

“Nigal, things can meet code and still be shoddy. Definition of a small town building inspector: ex carpenter with a bad back.”

““Nigal, things can meet code and still be shoddy. Definition of a small town building inspector: ex carpenter with a bad back.”
dayhiker
10:24:41 AM
2/10/05
ignore this user

I'll second that. I couldn't tell you how many times we've had contractors redo work that met code but wasn't up to pair.”

“Nigel, that is supposed to be how it works, yes. The problem is the inspectors get bogged down and fall behind schedule.

When my brother in law built his own house, I was there every day during the summer helping him. The inspector was supposed to come out one day to inspect the wiring and couldn't make it untli 2 weeks later. We had to wait to start on the drywall until he made it out.

Some of these big contractors have been accused of offering bribes to inspectors. No one has been caught yet.”

“Unions are a necessary evil.”

“lumberzac - we've got 6 projects up in your neck of the woods. Looks like someone from the office will be making a few trips to NY.”

“dayhiker - If it ends up being you, let me know. I know of a lot of great places to go hiking.”

“Thanks. I hope it is. I'm going to be making other trips to MA, ME, and NH. I'll take you up on it.”

“I would rather not work, than work for nothing.”

“OMG! dayhiker is gonna get all liberal on us. ;-)”

“Come on. The article said they haven't even begun talks and all of the sudden things are going downhill? Without a contract in place the employees are still running under the same conditions that existed before the union. The lack of performance has nothing to do with a union so we can stop putting the blame on them. I also find it awfully convenient that Wally World has issued a statement after the union came aboard telling about the doomed fate of the store. Where were these statements a couple of weeks ago when the union wasn't present? It's a coroporate tactic in which they will blow smoke and pretend that can't give these employees anything more. In the end the store will close because nobody is willing to bring a union into ALL Wal-Marts. They can't close all the stores but the anti-union mentality is preventing the union from being as effective as it could be. Proof positive is this article that you interpreted as being the unions fault when they haven't even done anything yet.”

“Introduction
Lieff Cabraser and co-counsel represent separate classes of hourly wage earners at Wal-Mart in the States of Washington and New York who allegedly have been forced to work "off-the-clock" (without pay). The plaintiffs are current and former Wal-Mart employees who allege that Wal-Mart has violated state wage and hour laws.
Wal-Mart's Alleged Misconduct
The lawsuits in New York and Washington charge that Wal-Mart, the self-proclaimed fastest growing and largest private employer in the United States, has systematically avoided paying employees their full, earned wages. Wal-Mart provides perverse incentives for managers to lower overhead costs, the largest component of which is employee payroll, by offering financial compensation and bonuses.
Managers subsequently under-staff projects and Wal-Mart stores in general. These efforts force employees to work off-the-clock and through lunch and rest breaks. Managers pressure employees to complete assignments, while refusing to permit employees to stay on-the-clock for the full amount of time it takes to accomplish their duties.
The class action lawsuits include specific allegations that Wal-Mart:
understaffs its stores and pressures employees to complete assignments while refusing to permit employees to stay on-the-clock for the time it takes to accomplish them;
denies pay for time worked off-the-clock, through meal or rest breaks, and overtime; and
keeps employees locked in Wal-Mart stores after closing and requires that they remain there after clocking out until store managers have visited every department.


New York and Washington Investigation

We are actively investigating Wal-Mart's practices in New York and Washington in order to present further evidence to the courts in these cases. It is important for us to convince the courts to protect all Wal-Mart employees in these states by treating the cases as class action lawsuits. Therefore, we would like to hear from current or former Wal-Mart employees in New York or Washington about your experiences at Wal-Mart. Please click here to contact Lieff Cabraser.


Experiences of Name Plaintiff Maria Gamble
One of the class representatives in the New York lawsuit, Maria Gamble of Suffolk County, New York, claims that while she worked at Wal-Mart as a customer service manager, Wal-Mart supervisors locked her in the store with her co-employees after the store closed when all employees were "off-the-clock." Ms. Gamble described her experiences at Wal-Mart:
"When I worked at Wal-Mart, we were routinely expected to work at times when we were not paid. The worst part of this was we were locked-in to the store at night. Every week, I worked at least one shift that went from 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. or 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. When the store closed at the end of my shift, the manager or the person closing the store would lock the exterior doors but the hourly employees like me would have to remain in the store and restock merchandise and count out the cash registers, even though we had already clocked off and were not getting paid. The tasks we had to do after the store closed always took at least an hour-and-a-half, and often two hours. The doors weren't unlocked until the work was completed. There were other ways in which I wasn't paid for time I was working, as well, such as mandatory attendance at unpaid meetings, and times I had to work through lunch and breaks."
Damages Sought
The lawsuits seek back pay for each hour employees were required to work, including overtime, for which they were not paid. The cases in New York and Washington are brought on behalf of current and former employees in Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores in these respective states that have been underpaid and overworked by the national retailer.
Update
In October 2004, the court in Washington granted class certification to a class of approximately 40,000 current and former Wal-Mart employees.
About Lieff Cabraser Heimann & Bernstein, LLP
Founded in 1972, Lieff Cabraser Heimann & Bernstein, LLP is a fifty-five attorney law firm with offices in San Francisco, California, New York, New York, Washington, DC and Nashville, Tennessee. We represent plaintiffs in federal and state courts across America in employment and discrimination cases. Over the past decade, we participated in some of the most important civil trials and settlements in the United States, including the case on behalf of commercial fishermen and local businesses against Exxon for the Exxon Valdez oil disaster and the 1998 landmark $206 billion settlement between 46 states and the tobacco industry.
Lieff Cabraser practices in federal district courts throughout the United States and in state courts where we are licensed to practice. In states in which Lieff Cabraser attorneys are not licensed to practice, we have affiliations with local counsel who serve as co-counsel with our firm

http://www.lieffcabraser.com/wal-mart.htm

If the plaintiffs when this class action lawsuit will they get all their lost wages?”

“So basiclly what you’re saying is that Wally World is too dumb to do the math and predict what effect this would have on this store’s ability to be profitable? I think it’s a great tactic on Walmart’s part and will send a strong message to other stores. It says “We don’t have to accept the union and we won’t.”.

Let’s face it, anyone who takes a job at Walmart and thinks they’re going to make an actual living at an unskilled job is kidding themselves and has unrealistic expectations.”

“Let’s face it, anyone who takes a job at Walmart and thinks they’re going to make an actual living at an unskilled job is kidding themselves and has unrealistic expectations.”
Nigal
10:58:10 AM
2/10/05

Doesn't Walmart promote, heavily, that anyone can work there way up th corporate ladder?”

“SS - how so?

Walmart is too dumb to do the math? WalMart stores actually have temp and sunlight monitors that take into account how much heat the building is taking on and coordinates this with their HVAC system so that it's comfy and they don't waste energy to heat or cool the building. I also understand that the skylights you see in new buildings are coordinated with the lighting intensity. Someone, probably their EE and ME, at least have decent math skills. Also, sounds kinda eco friendly to me.”

“"Doesn't Walmart promote, heavily, that anyone can work there way up th corporate ladder?”

Sure if you have the luxurie of working for a low wage long enough. But I'm talking about reality here. Not pie in the sky ideals a company tries to further so they look good. Again, this isn't about how great Walmart is. It's about how bad unions can fail at what THEY promise.”

“I can see most of you have never been in a union.”

“I'm going to be making other trips to MA, ME, and NH. - dayhiker

All those libs will reprogram you and bring you into their cult! ;-)”

“Matt, most of these early comments are a parody of previous discussions with Buddha Bear.”

“ME has very conservative areas. I thought NH was the conservative state and Vermont was the liberal one. Do I have them backwards? Most of these trips will be with my client, but some will get turned into long weekends for either a hiking trip or a getaway with my wife.”

“You've got it right dayhiker. Most (not all) of Upstate New York is conservative as well.”

“Dayhiker, what luck you have.”

“Just saw something on Discovery about the biggest ship scrapyard in the world, its in India. The workers get a few bucks a day, no benefits of any kind, and its very dangerous work because they are left to themselves to keep safe - the average is 1 death per day.

If those 40,000 workers were unionized it would do them wonders - kind of like the US 100 years ago. Unions may be out of place now in the US, but if they all disappeared we would start slipping backwards quickly. We already are.”

“Again, this isn't about how great Walmart is. It's about how bad unions can fail at what THEY promise.”
Nigal
11:05:22 AM
2/10/05

OK. Excuse this potential naive inquiry:

One store goes Union and Walmart says it's not profitable enough, yes?

A. We believe Walmart and this isn't about Walmart sending a message?

Edit B right out: excuse that one. I had a very late night.
last edited: 2/10/05 10:31:37 AM”

“Matt - I can't aruge with that. I landed at the right job at the right time with the right person. My first job was while in grad school. It was a steel warehouse where the pres. was an engineer. I was supposed to get practical experience and earn money for school. I put myself through college. After a year the two owners got in a power struggle. The Pres was even fired. I was married, working 40, and taking a full load of grad classes. I took a year off from school and wound up at a design build GC. Again, design and field experience. Perfect, right? After 6 months I find that one owner is stealing from the other one. I spend the next 6 months trying to find somewhere I could work and finish school. I sent resumes as far afield as Asheville and Raleigh, NC. I finally called where I work now. I knew he worked alone, but had seen his work come through the fab shop. He had a 110 hour work week the previous week. His wife and also his secretary both said he had to expand. I interviewed on Sat and started on Wed. That was 9 years ago this coming May. Timing and lucky for sure. This is a dream job and I appreciate how fortunate I am to have it.
last edited: 2/10/05 10:32:42 AM”

“BM - I think you nailed it. This was also a message from the top of Wal-Mart.”

“The 'walmartization' of the retail trade has been very bad for many folks. Didn't Wal-Mart stop selling store packaged meat when their butchers unionized?

I don't belong to a union but I want my neighbors to be able to earn a living wage. I won't shop at Wal-Mart because of their labor practices. I'll pay a little more down the road. I don't cross picket lines either.

Why do you hate your neighbors, Nigal?”

“I have been told by someone in the meat business that Wal-Mart injects something (I can't recall what but was told the actual compound) in the meat to make it heavier. This is a person I trust and isn't some inflammatory type.”

“Good, leaves more for me! The dang checkout lines have too many people in them now! ;-)”

“I tend to shop at the local stores as well. I have never set foot in the local Wal Mart.

Wal Mart's payment terms to its vendors now stands at 120 days. The are able to sell all the products in that time and invest the money they make. They end up paying the vendor back with the interest they make.”

“It's been great to have one in my town for groceries alone. The town has a big lake and folks from B'ham have weekend homes here. The two main grocery stores have classified this as a resort town and our prices are substantially higher than surrounding areas. In reality, we're a commuter suburb. Wal-Mart grocery prices are probably higher than other Wal-Mart stores, but much less than the other grocers. Heck, one of their managers spoke at our local Kiwanis club and he admitted that they adjust prices based on the local market and all of their stores weren't priced the same. I don't have a problem with that, it's called business. You price what the market will bear.”

“A new SuperCenter opened up a while back in one of our smaller towns.
People were lining up by the hundreds to apply for jobs there.
For people making min wage, Wal-Mart is like a wonderfull thing.
Working there sure beats processing chickens at the plant.”

“Cool dayhiker, all the best.”