GSMNP, The AT and thru-hikers

“I'm going to be backpacking in the Smokies in late April and a brunt of the trip will be on the AT. Camping in the park is limited to designated shelters and campsites only. On the AT through the park you can only camp in shelters. I plan on reserving space in two shelters (Ice Water Springs and Mt. Collins) for my group. I imagine a lot of thru hikers will be making their way through the smokies during this time. How does the limited space in the shelters work during AT thru hike season? If you reserve spots in the shelter, do you have to forfit it to thru-hikers who did not reserve space? Are the thru-hikers supposed to tent camp and let the bp's who have the spots reserved have the space? If you go to the shelter you reserved and it's full of thru-hikers what do you do? If you tent camp next to a shelter cuz it's full of through hikers who won't let you have the space you reserved, can you get fined?
last edited: 2/10/05 10:28:02 PM”

“Technically if you have a reservation, you have "rights" to the shelter. However, if its full of thru hikers when you get there, pitch a tent. I don't think you get fined when that is the case.

Anybody with better knowledge?”

“Pulled this off appalachiantrail.org:

Thru-hikers are required to obtain a backcountry permit that allows seven (7) consecutive nights and eight (8) days to traverse the A.T. through the park, but are exempt from the reservation system. Because of the large number of northbound thru-hikers who enter the park between March 15 and June 15, four bunk spaces at each A.T. shelter are reserved for them during this time. If the shelter is full, thru-hikers may camp in the immediate vicinity and within sight of the shelter.

. . .

During the spring thru-hiking season, it is quite likely that shelters will be overcrowded with thru-hikers, with numbers far exceeding the four spaces allotted at each shelter. If you encounter this situation, please be considerate of the other backpackers who may have reservations for the shelter, recognize their legitimate claim to their bunk space, and set up camp outside per the above regulations.
last edited: 2/10/05 11:08:24 PM”

“thanks, so the thru-hikers are required to give up the space to the backpackers with the reservation fr the shelter. My guess is that if you pitch a tent near the shelter and are not a thru-hiker you would get fined.”

“Thanks SilentJ for posting the reg's. The rangers won't just walk up there and start writing tickets. They'll try and work the situation out with all those involved. They don't mind if the thru hikers pitch a tent near the shelter if it's full. Go ahead and make a reservation and make sure you have a copy of it with you at the shelter...to show the other hikers and the rangers if they show up.

Oh, and HAVE A GOOD TIME !!”

“My advice would be to avoid the AT. 2 years ago I planned a 4 day trip to thru-hike the AT in late April. I wanted to hit it during wildflower season. I started planning in Dec. I called the first day I could for reservations and everything was already full. Basically, I was hitting the back end of other peoples trips. I think MM was able to get individual reservations for himself, but I was not able to get them for the group. In the end we had to call ourselves thru-hikers, though that was technically not legal because the def on a thru hiker is something like starting and ending 100 miles outside the park. The day before the trip I had a nightmare work problem happen and I couldn't go. Only ductape and MM were able to make it. I can't recall if they tented it or not, but MM had a personal reservation.

In the end, it was a nightmare to plan. I then decided that I'd never make another attempt with shelter in the Smokies during thru-hiker season. I'll try and find the thread, but most of the planning got handled on email.”

“Yes, lots of other cool places to hike in the park !!”

“thanks everyone for the info.”

“I have another thought about making your hike on the AT then. Yes it will be crowded and so much of the shelter space depends on when you arrive. If I were going during this time I would consider the "spirit of the law". What I mean is this; If I get there with proper reservations made and it is full of thru hikers, I would rather tent camp and let them have the shelter. They are the ones that are in it for the long haul and deserve a little trail magic.”

“well, what about fines? I am not going to give up my space in the shelter that I reserved if I am going to risk get escorted off the mountain and/or get a hefty fine.”

“Between the trip I mentioned and another more recent trip I learned that aggressive, high mile trips and the Smokies aren't such a good mix. The problem isn't so much the terrain, it's being limited in your decision making. When things change on the trip, and they can change, you are severely limited in your options. In other places you can reroute a trip or change up where you camp to make things work. It is much, much more difficult to make those on the fly type of decisions in the Smokies. Not trying to rain on your parade, just passing along my experiences there.

I still want to do the 4 day thru-hike. One day.”

“I called the park and they said that only thru-hikers can camp outside the shelters. If you have a reservation in the shelter, the thru-hiker has to give it up and camp outside.”

“I wonder what happens if the thru hiker doesn't give up his spot for you since you have the reservation.”

“I think they would get escorted out of the park.”

“who is going to escort them. You may or may not see a ranger that evening. Do rangers or trail runners hit the shelters every evening? Not trying to give you a hard time..just curious about this myself”

“Nothing would happen because they won't give up the space and it's too big a hassle to tell them to scat even if a ranger was there. Won't happen, no way, no how.

As far as they deserving it more than any other hiker.

Bullsh|t.

It's there for everyone to use, not just thru-hikers. And frankly the only difference between a hiker and a thru-hiker is six months of vacation.
last edited: 2/11/05 8:10:14 AM”

“applesauce - Your post with "consider the 'spirit of the law'" brought an interesting questions to mind.

Is the Appalachian Trail through the GSMNP part of the GSMNP? If no, I would consider myself a guest on the AT there. If yes, I would consider the thru-hikers as guests in the park. Currently, I consider that section of the AT to be part of GSMNP.

I am an aging hiker and will be headed to GSMNP soon. In the past it has taken about two months of easier hiking to condition myself up the being able to hike along the AT in the park. By using the shelters I avoid carrying the weight of a tent or tarp. Even with such I would not like to give up the convenience of a shelter to a thru-hiker.

So, if I am a guest on the AT, then I should be more considerate and avoid hiking there during the spring, thru-hiker season. Otherwise, I feel justified doing my thing whenever I am able to do it.

BTW, the elimination of a shelter at Birch Spring Gap agitates me no end! It means that I need to carry a tent or tarp when hiking in that part of the AT in the park, just for that one location.
last edited: 2/11/05 8:21:20 AM”

“HPM, I knew you would pop in on this thread eventually.”

“Here are some of my long-winded, slightly dis-jointed thoughts -

Seems like everyone agrees, and I do too, that the shelters along the AT will be packed this time of year. In the spirit of dispersing use, looking at other areas in the Park or going a month later might be advisable.

If you're determined to still hit the AT just be prepared to be squashed in, especially if weather is bad. I've done this stretch twice diring hiker season - once as a thru, once not. The shelters were jam packed. Last year it was dang cold. We had twice the shelter limit in Spence field, same at Silers Bald. The shelters in the Park have a fireplace and everyone wants a spot next to it when it is cold out. I was sooo happy when someone already at Silers offered me their spot in the shelter They weren't thru-hikers and weren't permitted there either, so I accepted their offe. A year earlier it was raining and we had about 21 in Tricorner Knob. Hikers were sleeping on the dirt floor.

You definitely need to call for your permit the minute you are able to do so - I think it is at 8AM (?) one month prior to the start of your trip. Check on this. Call the minute you can. Icewater Springs is busy w/o thru-hikers.

After you get your permit don't sweat it. Try to get to the shelter early in the day. At 2-3 PM there probably won't be anyone in the shelter yet, if the weather is good. You'll have pick of the spaces. Definitely be prepared to come in to a full shelter and set up a camp outside if you're in late, though. The Trail etiquette is first-come first-served and a tired thru-hiker that has a spot won't be happy if you ask her to leave. As far as giving up your spot to a thru, no one "deserves" the spot, but it is a nice thing to do.

If you get to a shelter with spaces just lay your pad and sleeping bag down on one. If it's full, set up a tent. If you set up a tent outside a shelter with empty spaces in it that's when you'll get the ticket. If you tent near a full shelter and you have a permit, I can't imagine the ranger would ticket you, regardless of the written policy. Besides, you'll get a better night's sleep in your tent thatn in a shelter with 15 other people. BTW, bring ear plugs!

One last thing - take some goodies to give out if at all possible. Bag of candy bars, sodas, what ever. You'll be much loved.

Have a great time. Wish I were coming with.
last edited: 2/11/05 8:50:40 AM”

“NS - the AT thru the GSMNP is definitely part of the Park, its regulated by the Park Service so you shoudl follow park svc rules when in the Park whether your on the AT or not.”

“Thanks, Roam Around.”

“I may open the trip up to the public, right now it is a private trip. Reason being, the strict camping regs in the park.

I do intend on doing the AT, only cuz I want to hike up and over LeConte, hit Charlies Bunion and Clingmans Dome all on the same trip.”

“I would do the trip a bit later - say early May. The bulk of the thruhikers will be through the park and you are less likely to run into serious snow and cold. The plastic will be off the sides of the shelter so you may even be able to sleep. Watch out for the skunks though.

On my second thruhike we ran into a group out for a long weekend. The rangers would only give them four or six permits but they came with a group of 8. They were some perturbed when the thruhikers inside the shelter refused to give up the extra spaces. (There were bunks enough for the permitted number.) So they camped outside, leaving empty bunks. They got their revenge though - they cooked steaks, drank wine, talked until midnight -- and offered nothing edible to the thruhikers. These were the same folks who wanted to vandalize the shelter until I told them that it really wasn't acceptable to carve their names into the walls. The dislike was entirely mutual.”

“my trip is the weekend of April 23 so hopefully most of the thru-hikers will already have made their way thru the park at that time.”

“ENS - I think mine was something like 4/24-28. I believe MM and ductape saw thru-hikers a plenty.

If I ever get to make another attempt on it then I'll probably do it in June when the azaleas bloom. There won't be a water problem yet, and the weather is more stable. I watched and recorded the temp readings for a month before the trip in an attempt to help me pack. It can still get into the teens that time of year at elevation. By June, I'll be able to go with the quilt and take the tarptent. Also, fewer folks to fight for the spots. Crap, now I want to make another attempt.”

“I don't get it? I would think a thru-hiker would be willing to give up the spot. It just seems that it's not quite the rustic escape of the trail that they are out there for and they would much rather be outside.”

“I'd say that some thru-hikers would rather not be in a shelter. Some folks avoid shelters like the plague. However, in the Smokies the only place you can overnight, legally, is at the shelters. As a thru-hiker, if you have to be at a crowded the shelter you may as well be in it, even if you're one of those that typically avoids them. Even crowded a shelter is darned convenient (no tent set-up), especially in bad weather.

One other aspect is that far south there are just alot of thru-hikers still on the AT. Many have dropped out by the Smokies, but there are still alot. It's a fact that in March and April the wave is coming through. It's part of the planning that everyone using the resource has to account for.

As far as allusions towards animosity between thru-hikers and short-timers, sure it exists sometimes but I haven't seen much of it. In my experience, what thru-hikers don't like to see are people not taking proper care of the Trail and its infrastructure (ie shelters/privies). Otherwise, life is good and all (mostly) get along.”

“On the same note I'm not doing any thru-hiking and I wouldn't have a problem sleeping outside. Trailrunners are probably out more during this time though and I'd be afraed of being fined.”

“Mile Monster pretty much stated my thoughts on the matter.

I've been unlucky the last three years and have run into some real knuckleheads.

I'd just get your reservations and go. If you have to tent out and get questioned just show your permit. The Rangers aren't there to hassle those who attempt to obey the rules.”

“I remember your horse camper friends, HPM. I don't think knucklehead is quite strong enough a word.”

“I love the Smokies and I can't wait to go”

“The Smokies is my favorite place to hike. I'll probably go 3x this year.”

“I'll just bring a tent (I'd rather camp in a tent anyhow) andif the shelter is full I'll camp in that. I am just skeered of the $5000 fine that my Smokies guide talks about.”

“ENS, although I think that you're a little too worried about it, and that HPM's recommendations are sound and safe, maybe you might pop over to Whiteblaze and ask your question.”

“It sounds like you'll be in good shape if you take the tent. Getting the permit is what will be difficult. I started calling at about a quarter til the allowed time and got an answer at straight up on the hour. The shelters were full. I recommend having a couple of routes planned so that you can at least get something. I wound up having to re-route plan on the fly so my decisions weren't quite as informed. I was able to get some shelters, but it stretched days.”

“Are all your other stops in shelters? If so it would stink to tote the tent just for the nights your trip coincides w/ the AT. I'd watch the weather as time gets near. If the weather looks mostly good I'd bring an 8x10 siltarp - good shelter if you have to use it while light, small and not overly burdensome if you don't.”

“ditto on the tarp idea.”

“Yep, a tarp would be ideal that time of year. I made a 12x10 one for a dining area just for Smokies trips. It ALWAYS rains on me there. 1# is easy insurance.”

“When passed on the trail, I inquire if he/she/they are stopping overnight at the next shelter. If the answer is yes, I politely ask them to try to save me a spot, preferably on the lower platform. It works. There has always been a spot for me when I arrived. Sometimes they say that they were about to send out a search party to look for me, but it has not happened yet. Some have obtained water for me, like at Peck's Corner, and many have offered me food when I come dragging in late at the shelter. And in the mornings some usually want their picture taken with me. I should charge for it.

Reservations

Here's a trick on getting your reservation. Add a few days to the beginning of your trip, if possible. this will allow you to call a few days earlier. Then, a week or two before your trip, call in the late afternoon, a slack time, and cancel the first few days. They will have to cancel the entire trip, but can immediately reset the original days that you really want. Or, be a louse and just forget about doing the extra days at the beginning. Don't tell them you know me!
last edited: 2/11/05 1:55:21 PM”

“NS - I've thought about doing that, but was afraid I would rain on someelse's parade.”

“dayhiker - I agree with you. It's not right. But, is it any worse than the people who make a reservation for a group without first having a group, then look for people to make the group and likely cancel several, unused slots just before the trip. Some don't even cancel at all!

I've had had my own set of difficulties with their system. And too many times when I could not get a shelter reservation, I have later discovered that there were only two or three people there that night. Since the system does not work for all, one does what one must do. One solution might be to permit overflow camping outside the shelter. They allow the thru-hikers to do it, when the shelter is full.

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last edited: 2/11/05 3:00:51 PM”

“Threads like this make me even more excited about the completion of the Cumberland Trail.”

“NS - I've heard about that too on the light turnout. I get compulsive about making sure I can open slots as soon as they know. I've had my share of problems using reserved campsites too.”

“why is that Trailhound? A reason to avoid the Smokies?”

“trailhound57 - Here's another trail which will be nice when it is completed.

"The Pine Mountain Trail is located on the border between Kentucky and Virginia. Open to non-motorized traffic, the trail is currently under construction with approximately 28 miles already on the ground. Ultimately, the trail will be nearly 120 miles long and will run from the Breaks Interstate Park to the Cumberland Gap National Park."
The Pine Mountain Trail”

“Love the Smokies. Just really hate the red tape and traffic that one must fight through to enjoy the Smokies or any national park for that matter (some are worse than others). I'm all for any trail that will compete with and give the Smokies some relief. Although it's an area of the country near to my heart, I honestly can't say I've spent all that much time on the trail there. I just hope the CT lives up to the hype.
last edited: 2/11/05 4:15:50 PM”

“The CT should be a great alternative to the AT when completed. With the trail continuing thru Cumberland Gap and joining the Pine Mtn. trail that Paul mentioned, it will be another great mountian ridge trail for all of us to enjoy. Join us on part of the CT (nearby at least) on the Frozen Head Wildflower trip on Good Friday thru Easter.”

“well, I will look at my options, but I really want to stick to the plan cuz it's such a good one. Shelters choked with thru-hikers (not that there's anything wrong with them) doesn't seem like much fun.”

“i dont know if anyone has mentioned this cuz i havent read the whole thread yet, but no spaces are reserved for thru-hikers anymore.

my whole time thru the smokies last year, there was not the hint of a conflict between thrus and non-thrus, altho park management tried very hard to set up the rules to make it thus. they told us we had to give up shelter space to those who had reservations, but we werent supposed to set up our tents outside the shelter anticipating that possibility”