Looking for a few good men (and women)

“LOL! I'm sorry. I feel like a wrestler throwing a chair at an opponent. I feel bad. getting a little loopy on caffeine.

But if you look at his responses......well, what can I say?

If that's true, then maybe you voted for Bush this time. Did you? ... I didn't think so.

Voted for Bush this time? WTF? ow many assumptions can one person make? it's damn annoying

I would bet him $1000 on every prez candidate I voted for since the mid 80's and clean him out.

Hey sarge - name who I voted for this round.

And, IMO, anyone who volunteers there time has strong convictions.

I'll give you 5 minutes from my edit time to name my candidate and then I'll shut up forever on this debate.
last edited: 2/22/05 8:41:47 PM”

“Time check.

Oh well.
last edited: 2/22/05 8:49:30 PM”

“How could it be that difficult? it couldn't be Bush, obviously. I masde the bet so it couldn't be kerry. Too easy.

What other choices does one have?

My posts should make it obvious, no? Certainly you can pigeon hole this liberal, no?

I'll give you some points if you can name him.

Take your time......”

“I'm not claiming to know who you voted for. I am only claiming you didn't vote for Bush.

Did you?”

“Are you betting?

I have made no Black & white statements. Your narrow/twisted analysis of my statements have assumed that much.
last edited: 2/22/05 8:58:51 PM”

“You tell me. Did I bet? What is with you and bets? Do you have some kind of psychological disorder we should know about where you need to "bet" on everything? I remember when I was much younger kids would often say "wanna bet", or "betcha" ... but I haven't heard that much until now. I think people usually grow out of that stage at some point. .... usually ....

re: black and white statements

Oh, you mean like when you conveniently left out the word "general" as you read my posts? I see.
last edited: 2/22/05 9:01:48 PM”

“I have made no Black & white statements. Your narrow/twisted analysis of my statements have assumed that much.

you assumed I didn't vote for Bush. Who did I not vote for last time?

I explained my thoughts on your use of the word general. You missed that?

it's like talking to a wall.
last edited: 2/22/05 9:03:03 PM”

“I am not claiming to know who you voted for last time. To say it AGAIN, I am only claiming you did not vote for Bush this past election.

Did you? Why won't you answer?

re: talking to a wall

Yeah, like somebody who won't answer a simple question. Did you vote for Bush last election?
last edited: 2/22/05 9:04:31 PM”

“You assume a lot, sarge.”

“and you avoided the question again

We'll see who "assumes" too much when we see how many "shootouts" come from this border patrol.
last edited: 2/22/05 9:05:28 PM”

“re: sarcasm. That's sarcasm? Ok. Whatever dude.
sarge
9:19:41 PM
2/22/05

You also don't seem to believe me when I tell you what i meant. So why make anymore wasted efforts?”

“A) this provides an ideal vehicle for certain paramilitary types who think vigilantism is the answer to anything.

1) - well as it turns out, the UN arms inspections do derided by certain sections of Ameica were working. Yes there were weapons, they seem to have been largely detroyed. There was no "smoking gun".

2) - No credible link to 9/11 - See 9/11 commission report. Saddam met AQ in 1994 but no credible connection with attacks on America. Maybe you need to do a little more reading yourself. Although you probably discount this as liberal propaganda.

3)- Sure, most Iraqis welcomed the fall of Saddam. But most now see America as a foreign occupying army.

4) - More troops in the post invasion time would have slowed insurgent attacks, now running at 60 a day. An almost universal opinion held by those who've worked in Iraw that more troops in the immediate post-invasion period would have helped quell insugrency before it got going.

5) Now you agree with HIllary. More attacks is sign that insurgency is failing? hmmmm. How many Americans and Iraq's died today, tomorrow, for the next five years? Or don't these people count to you.

6) For those of you don't know, winning the peace is often harder than winning the war. They key to Iraq was never in toppling Hussein, it was about what happened afterwards. Just like the Russians invaded Afganistan in 1979 and AQ emerged from the remnants, then new threats to America will emerge from the American innvasion of Iraq.

7) No smoking gun, despite thorough search. But I'm sure you know more than those out there looking for them.
I'll say this slowly so you get it.
No WMDs found in Iraq.

The mistake refers to Bush administration honestly thinking there were. Then taking the country to war. You start a pre-emptive war and the justification given to the perents of dead soldiers is wrong - you deserve to be called on it.
So lets talk about the real reason for going to war. America's long-term strategic advantage. That really makes them no better than other invaders in history.

8) It's not over yet. You're really should say what Bush's own man, Porter Goss, said about the future threat to America coming from the Invasion of Iraq. 40,000 insurgents, 200,000 offering support. You think these people will suddenly disappear when America finally leaves Iraq five or ten years down the road?

9) Well then we both agree he's fiscally irreponsible.

10) Sure, lets hope America doesn't pay for this in the long-term.

I'm having difficulty seeing any upside to the invasion of Iraq and the $300 billion and rising it has cost you from those taxes the feds take from your pocket sarge.”

“Why won't you answer the question?”

“Because it's a dumb question.

: black & white. Yeah, that's me, a "black and white" view on belief systems. If that's true, then maybe you voted for Bush this time. Did you? ... I didn't think so.
sarge
9:19:41 PM
2/22/05

Ask me a question with some relevance.”

“y2 - You'll believe who you want to believe on this, I'll believe who I want on this. I'm not going to get into this.

Thanks for your opinion.”

“yeah, fair enough. But I was only responding to you tract on what liberals thought. Now you don't want to get on with it. Don't question your own beliefs, sounds like a "black and white" world view to me.”

“Here is a relevant question. "Did you vote for Bush?"

It's relevant because you claimed I have a "black and white" view of belief systems. In other words, you claim I don't understand how you may think politically speaking, and I draw false assumptions based on that. So, I took a gamble and made a speculation that you did not vote for Bush last election based on your comments.

Did you vote for Bush last election? We all know why you won't answer this.
last edited: 2/22/05 9:17:13 PM”

“y2 - I have been over this debate HUNDREDS of times with people. Don't assume I'm not willing to debate this just because I won't debate with you right now.

Also, I was a liberal up until the mid 90s, so don't tell me I "don't question my own beliefs" or see things in "black and white". If anything, I've been very flexible.

How about you? Have you changed your convictions? If so, good, you are open minded, as I am. Somebody is not seeing things in "black and white" just because they happen to disagree with you.”

“No.

You assumed I thought the morons running around the desert were "backwards rednecks".

You assumed some other assinine point because I said they would have strong convictions.

I say you have a black and white view. That does not mean you may not understand how I, one individual, thinks.

Your logic is anything but.”

“Still not answering the question ...”

“Still haven't asked a relevant question. And since logic is beyond you I guess I'm through here.”

“That's what I thought.”

“I see this as being no different than a neighborhood watch program. If the local law enforcement doesn’t have the resources to be everywhere at once why not help out? If the crack trade was getting out of control in a neighborhood what’s to stop the people who live there from keeping an eye out for the dealers and reporting them?”

“nigal - agreed.

National security should be our top priority.

We the people ...”

“It is sad though that those who are not willing to take on the challenge and do something themselves simply sit back and make the concerned citizens out to be militia nuts.”

“It's the mentality.

Use tax dollars to do the job. Although, we all know how inefficient that really is.”

“Sarge, the idea is a good one as I posted at that start but what tax dollars are you going to use?”

“why does this whole idea remind me of the movie police academy 4, citizens on patrol?

ahhh.hollywood's golden age of comedy...”

“Ewker - none. That's the point.”

“Well I think it's a different scale from the twitching curtains of neighborhood watch and going on patrol.”

“don't move dirtbag!!!


man, what a classic.

hey sarge, you should volenteer to help out with the program. you can be tackleberry.”

“and bmag, you can help, too. you can be the wise cracking mahoney guy.

nigal, you be zed(?) [that bobcat guy]”

“Despite new technology, Border Patrol overwhelmed

Wed Feb 23, 9:41 AM ET Top Stories - USATODAY.com


By Mimi Hall, USA TODAY

Across an expanse of desert where nothing marks the Mexican border but a flimsy line of barbed wire, Border Patrol agent Mitch King flies his helicopter low to search for signs of illegal entry into the USA.

He spots footprints and tire tracks and hovers to get a better look. If the sandy impressions are fresh, he'll radio agents on the ground. But King's experienced eyes tell him these prints are at least a day or two old. Now, they serve only as evidence that more people have crossed the border illegally without getting caught.

More than three years after the terrorist attacks in 2001, the 11,000 men and women who serve as the border's front-line defense are overwhelmed. Despite an influx of new technology, such as underground sensors and cameras that pan the desert, agents catch only about one-third of the estimated 3 million people who cross the border illegally every year.

Most of the illegals are poor Mexican laborers looking for work. But officials are alarmed that a growing number hail from Central and South America, Asia, even Mideast countries such as Syria and Iran. In 2003, the Border Patrol arrested 39,215 so-called "OTMs," or other-than-Mexicans, along the Southwest border. In 2004, the number jumped to 65,814.

Those figures worry intelligence and Homeland Security officials, who say al-Qaeda leaders want to smuggle operatives and weapons of mass destruction across the nation's porous land borders. James Loy, deputy secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, told Congress last week, "Several al-Qaeda leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons."

T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, says the Border Patrol has "reliable intelligence that there are terrorists living in South America, assimilating the culture and learning the language" in order to blend in with Mexicans crossing the border.

"We really don't know who comes into this country illegally over the Southwest border," Sen. Dianne Feinstein (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., says. "This is a big problem."

A steady stream heading north

The independent 9/11 Commission's report warned in August that "the challenge for national security in an age of terrorism is to prevent the very few people who may pose overwhelming risks from entering or remaining in the United States undetected." And that's a daunting task along these stretches of border in the Southwest.

In Mitch King's territory of remote south-central New Mexico, 109 agents work a 53-mile section of border. They patrol 14,000 square miles of rugged terrain using helicopters, horses and all-terrain and sport-utility vehicles.

Much of the area is far out of reach of the Border Patrol's cameras and sensors. It's easily accessible, however, to Mexicans and others who head north illegally across miles of sand dotted with nothing but the occasional cow or coyote. Forced east by tighter security along the California and Arizona borders, migrants cross here on foot and in cars, morning, noon and night - as many as 200 a day along this relatively small stretch of land.

"It goes on all day long, 24/7," says Richard Moody, the agent in charge of the area. His agents often work 14- to 16-hour days under stressful conditions. Late last month, the driver of a car full of people crossing illegally hit a Border Patrol agent with his side mirror while trying to run him down.

The agents who work for Moody in Luna and two other New Mexico counties caught 170 non-Mexicans in 2002, 293 in 2003 and 678 in 2004. Most are from South and Central America. But the agents also have picked up illegal border-crossers from China, southeast Asia and the Middle East.

Moody's agents are up against increasingly sophisticated smugglers. Even as the Border Patrol has gotten new high-tech equipment, so have the people they're trying to catch. Smugglers use two-way radios, cell phones, global positioning systems and other high-tech equipment to watch agents' movements and alert each other when the coast is clear.

"Ten years ago, they probably could not have bought a pair of infrared night-vision goggles on the open market, but now they can," says Robert Boatright, assistant chief of the Border Patrol in El Paso. "We see them changing tactics as we change tactics."

That can be unsettling out in the desert where, unless there's a full moon, the nights are so dark you can't see your hand in front of your face. "We're under 24-hour surveillance by them," Moody says. "They have a very extensive counterintelligence operation. It certainly keeps us on our toes."
Ironically, the war on terrorism abroad has slowed the government's ability to secure the border in some areas.


Along King's helicopter route, roughly 7 miles of the border are marked by car barriers - 3- to 4-foot high, cement-filled pieces of casing pipe sunk deep in concrete and set every couple of feet. The barriers are in place mostly around the little town of Columbus, the start of a well-traveled smuggling route north to Deming.

The Border Patrol would like the barrier extended, but the Army engineering units and National Guard troops who did the hard work of installing the pipes over the past two years are no longer available.

"We'd like to get the whole area done," Moody says. "But there are two fronts in the war, and everyone's out of pocket now in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites)."

High technology, low staffing

Agents say new technology - remote video cameras, unmanned aerial vehicles, more underground sensors, radiation detectors and access to criminal databases and terrorist watch lists - has helped them do their job.

At official ports of entry along the border and at checkpoints set up along highways heading north, the Homeland Security Department has stepped up security since the Sept. 11 attacks. Foreigners who need a visa to enter the USA must be photographed, fingerprinted and checked against terrorist watch lists. Cars and trucks are checked with dogs and radiation-detection equipment.

As a result, those seeking illegal entry have gone elsewhere. "When you crack down in one area, they're going to try to exploit weaknesses in another area," Bonner says.

President Bush (news - web sites)'s proposed 2006 budget calls for more high-tech gear for the Border Patrol, including $125 million to test and buy more radiation detectors and $51 million to improve sensors and video equipment.

Those who use the equipment, however, say there's also a desperate need for more "boots on the line" to track and catch illegal immigrants. "The technology is great, but it doesn't actually go out and get the bodies," says Jim Stack, an agent in El Paso. "We are extremely short-staffed."

Although the government has added about 1,300 agents to the force since 2001, there still aren't nearly enough to patrol the 6,900 miles of border with Mexico and Canada.

Recognizing that need, Congress late last year authorized a near doubling of the size of the agency by adding 2,000 agents a year for the next five years. But this month, the Bush administration's budget requested $37 million to pay for one-tenth as many agents - 210 - in 2006.

Critics are calling that a grave mistake. "Until we make the investments necessary to protect the border, the country is seriously at risk," says former congressman Jim Turner of Texas, who was the top Democrat on the House Homeland Security Committee last year.

"The holes that remain in our border security systems are not small," House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, says. "They are gaping, and they are glaring to our terrorist enemies. They are coming for us."”

“Bearmagnet ... 3 more days ...”

“Say what?”

“Read the thread - Change the date range.”

“Ok, Sarge. Got it.

(backing away slowly)”

“To summarize - Bearmagnet was insistent that the minutemen would use violence on the borders. I disagreed. It became a discussion of who has a better grasp on reality. The project is over end of April (at least, this initial phase). As of yet, there have been no incidences and the project has been an overwhelming success. Large sums of money and resources have been saved thanks to these volunteers using principles on which our country was founded. Namely, citizens' elbow grease is more efficient than government bureaucracy.

[insert image of American flag waving with American the Beautiful playing in the background]
last edited: 4/27/05 9:13:44 AM”

“Large sums of money and resources have been saved thanks to these volunteers using principles on which our country was founded.


you mean a bunch of old, rich, white guys who didn't want to pay thier taxes have saved us from tired, poor huddled masses yearning to breathe free?

i'm so confused.”

“sacco, you are confused if you think the US should allow these illegals or in your words"poor huddled masses " to slip into this country”

“You sound confused.

America is not a free for all.

You cannot sustain a country with handouts. Eventually, the money tree would have no more leaves.

This country is not about handouts. It's about freedom and opportunity. It's about hard work.

Laws are on the books for a reason. People who openly defy laws which are designed to protect the safety of this country, the finances of it's free people, the "civility" in this civilization, have no place here.

Yes, you are confused.”

“OMG, the world is coming to an end, sarge and I agree on something!!!”

“didn't mean to say they should be ewk.
i think this is one gray issue without any good answer.

but mainly, i'm just confused how this issue relates to the founding fathers.”

“but mainly, i'm just confused how this issue relates to the founding fathers.

Wow! You actually made even less sense.

I think this is one gray issue without any good answer.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Ewker - Run for your lives!!! We agree!”

“there is no gray issue. If you want to come into this country do it legally.
What a slap in the face for all who did it correctly to allow those illegal ones to stay or be given ammensty”

“Once upon a time the government had illegal immigrants entering America through the middle of a desert.

Congress said, "We need to secure our borders."

So they created a border patrol position and hired a person at $18,000.00 a year for the job.

Then Congress said, "How does the border patrolman do his job without instruction?"

So they created a planning department and hired two people, one person to write the instructions for $22,000.00, and one person to do time studies for an additional $22,000.00 per year.

Then Congress said, "How will we know the border patrolman is doing the tasks correctly?"

So they created a Quality Control department and hired two people. One
to do the studies for $31,000.00 and one to write the reports for an
additional $31,000.00 per year.

Then Congress said, "How are these people going to get paid?"

So they created the following positions, a time keeper for $35,000.00
annual salary, and a payroll officer for an additional $35,000.00, then
hired two people.

Then Congress said, "Who will be accountable for all of these people?"

So they created an administrative section and hired three people, an
Administrative Officer at $155,000.00 per year, Assistant
Administrative Officer $125,000.00, and a Legal Secretary for an
additional $100,000.00 per year.

Then Congress said, "We have had this operating for one year with a
budget cost of $574,000.00 and we are $18,000 over budget. We must
cutback overall cost."

So they laid off the border patrolman.”

“classic”

“Bump!

Bumpity-Bump!

Bumpity-Bumpity-Bumpity-Bump!

April is over. Where is Bearmagnet???

Yoo-hoo ...

You out there Bearmagnet?”

““OMG, the world is coming to an end, sarge and I agree on something!!!”
Ewker
9:28:18 AM
4/27/05

Ewker, as painful as it is, I agree with him to. Oh the horror!”

“Ahhh ... Group hug everybody!!”