Alaska National Wildlife Refuge

“Given that the Senate passed the bill to OK drilling in ANWR, any interest in seeing it while it's still worth seeing?”

“I think a number of people on the other thread will wait till the wells, pumps, trucks, haul roads, pipelines, and other stuff sprouts. It's a good thing, dontcha know.”

“This really saddens me. Bush has no care except for his friends in the oil and energy industry. The health of the environment means nothing to him.”

“Oh my, give me a break dude. This administration is no worse or better than any other when it come to the environment.”

“I don't buy the "Bush could care less about the environment" stuff. It's extremist talk. I am against drilling in ANWR. But those who favor it merely draw the line differently, but they aren't anti-wilderness. They don't want the wilderness destroyed. Such divisive rhetoric does no good for the wilderness and it only alienates others. I mean, come on, John Kerry thinks we should instead drill at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico. Does John Kerry not care about the environment at the bottom of the ocean? Do those who not want ANWR drilled not care about drilling in the Persian Gulf or Venezuela or Russia or all the other places we drill? Is that "environment" not important to you? We obviously, for the time being until alternative fuels take over, need to drill somewhere. I don't think ANWR is a reasonable option. But we have closed off so many other places it makes it look more tempting than it should. We need to have a long-sighted energy plan. We have needed one for decades. So it's not just a Bush thing as so many people wish to make it appear. Just my thoughts.”

“In my line of work (environmental scientist), I've witnessed environmental legislation used as one of the greatest pieces of propaganda. There has never been a green administration by any standards. Just because legislation is put in place there is always the other side of the coin. Usually, the other side of the coin brings more environmental problems than the legislation fixed. The environment is one of the most difficult things to legislate.”

“If green is the standard, this administration is bright red, or black. but nowhere near green”

“Not just one thread on this folks! ...but two!..Two for the price of one!
http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/20448,3.php
Bush one vote away from Arctic drilling OK

..and neither labeled as Fuego...”

“A regular net nanny's nightmare.”

“..and you Liberals call the Conservatives 'stupid'. ;-)”

“if you notice this thread was about visiting the area before the oil companies go in. It turned fuego. Also the other thread was started before the fuego icon.

got to notice those things ;)
last edited: 3/16/05 6:41:44 PM”

“Sorry icarus, Nobody want's to go. They will never go, but they will always complain.”

“this isn't a fuego thread, this is a trip planning thread. I'd love to go there.”

“Given that the Senate passed the bill to OK drilling in ANWR......."
icarus
4:29:38 PM

Instant Fuego
All posts other than ENS's last are Fuego, and he even helped start the Fuego with Geo.'s posts.
last edited: 3/16/05 6:50:44 PM”

“only if you make it that way”

“Ewker, Ewker, Ewker.....

What is it, 11 posts or so till a non-Fuego post appears? Get Real, dude.”

“Did somebody say....

?


LMAO --”

“hey what are you doing reading my post...lol

this guy is kind of new so I don't think it was his intent to make it that way”

“Ha Ha!
I love pissing Tilt off! LOL

As I've said before, someone has to be the adult around all you children. ;-)
last edited: 3/16/05 6:55:03 PM”

“Hey Ewker, I'll put you back on ignore if you wish. You were crying so much about it, I took you off.”

“Man, you'd think they were going to turn the whole place into a wasted moonscape or something. They'r only drilling in like.4% of the whole place.

Buncha Chicken Littles. :)”

“SS, you can do what you want. I only griped once when someone did a copy and paste and you commented without seeing my whole post.
You also assumed a lot of what I was posting unless you were peeking ;)”

“Most of these peeps that are crying so much about this drilling aren't old enough to remember the hysterical environmental warnings that were being screamed by the Greens before the Alaska pipeline was built.
He11, I was one of those screaming at the time.

It was built and the animals increased in population afterward.
It was a win-win for all.
last edited: 3/16/05 7:04:22 PM”

“win-win for whom??? The oil being piped out of Alaska isn't coming to the US. It is being sold overseas to Japan and China. Only winners are the oil companies”

“Tell that to the citizens of Alaska.

Last time I checked, Alaska was still one of the United States, and they each are paying Federal Income Tax like the rest of us.
last edited: 3/16/05 7:08:17 PM”

“Many of them are old enough. They just feel obligated to act politcally correct.”

“see you have this all wrong. The reason for the oil companies to drill there is to stop our dependency on oil from OPEC. It won't happen when the oil companies sell it to others.
Now if the US tell the oil companies they can drill BUT they have to sell it to the US only then that would be ok. That won't happen though.

Enviorment aside that is my major grip about drilling there. It will not help the US as far as oil goes.”

“Ewker, you do know each citizen of Alaska that lived there during the building of the Pipeline gets a huge check each year???
Thousands of $$$.
last edited: 3/16/05 7:13:04 PM”

“and how does that help you and I?? How does it help with the oil being sold overseas? It seems to me everyone wins when it is sold to the US. But I guess if I lived in Alaska I would be happy with being bought out.”

“Oil reserves are a matter of National Security.”

“

I was in ANWR last summer when I took this shot of a previously unknown bird/animal. I was holding out on sharing it in case they voted to authorize drilling up there. I'm gonna release it now. If they thought the spotted owl was an environmental nightmare, wait'll they get a hold of this thing. As far as I know, it only lives in ANWR. They won't be drilling anytime soon.”

“Oil reserves are a matter of National Security.”
bbw
7:24:27 PM
3/16/05

so is that why they aren't uncapping all the capped oil wells in the US?”

“FYI, it survives on bobcats and seeds. You should see the crap that comes out of this sucker. Beware while walking underneath one. They make marginal pets. It's a cat's worst nightmare.”

“Oil reserves are a matter of National Security.”
bbw
7:24:27 PM
3/16/05

so is that why they aren't uncapping all the capped oil wells in the US?”
Ewker
7:27:03 PM
3/16/05

You learn fast.”

“Each man, woman, and child that are citizens of Alaska each got a check for:
2004
$919.84

2003
$1107.56

2002
$1540.76

2001
$1850.28

2000
$1963.86

1999
$1769.84

1998
$1540.88

1997
$1296.54

1996
$1130.68

1995
$990.30

1994
$983.90

1993
$949.46

1992
$915.84

1991
$931.34

1990
$952.63

1989
$873.16

1988
$826.93

1987
$708.19

1986
$556.26

1985
$404.00

1984
$331.29

1983
$386.15

1982
$1000.00

These checks sent many a poor Alaskan to College.
last edited: 3/16/05 7:37:19 PM”

“Dang! Buck, that's a great picture!
LMAO!”

“I wish there would have been compromise on this issue.

Open ANWR to the lowest impact drilling possible and take the royalties to better fund the national parks or purchase more lands in the lower 48.

Personally, I think this was not the best time to gain maximum value for the resource.”

“That's the thing...

They'll say it's for National Security, but will they bring the resources up to 'warm standby' and save them for an actual emergency situation or will they simply forge ahead and cash it out?

The security argument is completely bogus.”

“And just you watch. It will take years and years to access that oil. By the time it's coming out of the ground, oil will be $30 a barrel again.”

“SS, you still didn't aswer my question as to how that helps the US.

I know all about people in Alaska getting paid off. I have relatives who have been living there before Alaska became a state.
There are no more poor people who live in Alaska than any other state.

Why don't people who live in other states that have oil wells and pipelines get paid.”

“Ewker, read above.
I've told you they pay Federal Income Tax.
I've told you they are part of The United States.
What parts of this can you not understand?
Duh!”

“so does/is everyone else...your point???
last edited: 3/16/05 8:59:41 PM”

“wow, so much for visiting ;) the sierra club plans trips up there (or one of their affiliates), but they start around $3k, approx 2-3x's what those poor alaskans are getting in the mail each year! :)”

“Welcome to TT, icarus.
It ain't pretty here sometimes, but always entertaining!
last edited: 3/16/05 9:51:57 PM”

“Sore topic I guess ;) I guess I should have expected something like this! Now I know for next time...”

“LOL, most of us in person ain't as bad as our barks. Sign up for a trip on the Trip Page. You will be welcome.”

“icarus, bad timing on this topic. I would like to go up there sometime. It is a shame with relatives up there and I have never made it :(”

“Just wanted to throw out a couple of points about today's vote. First, hopefully everyone has realized that today's vote does not actually authorize the drilling to begin, rather it allows the proposed enabling legislation (which is currently pending in the House, more on that in a minute) to be voted on subject to appropriations bill proceedings (thus, no filibusters nor the requirement for 60 votes to bring cloture and force a floor vote on the legislation). That said, it certainly makes the follow-up legislation (which will provide for the issuance of the exploration/drilling leases) much easier to pass.

Currently, in the U.S. House there is pending House Resolution 39 (Arctic Coastal Plain Domestic Energy Security Act of 2005), by which leases would actually be granted, and which contains several provisions that I believe are relevant to the discussion.

Sec. 6 a(2) provides "that the Secretary may close, on a seasonal basis, portions of the Coastal Plain to exploratory drilling activities as necessary to protect caribou calving areas and other species of fish and wildlife"

From my reading of the legislative history of the bill, this section is being construed as primarily limiting any drilling activity to the winter months, when calving does not occur.

Sec. 6 a(3) requires "that the lessee of lands within the Coastal Plain shall be fully responsible and liable for the reclamation of lands within the Coastal Plain and any other Federal lands that are adversely affected in connection with exploration, development, production, or transportation activities conducted under the lease and within the Coastal Plain by the lessee or by any of the subcontractors or agents of the lessee"

Thus, this section requires the oil companies to provide reclamation of the land following drilling.

Finally, Sec. 6 a(8) "prohibit[s] the export of oil produced under the lease"

Clearly this section is intended to prevent the selling of any extracted oil to China, Japan, etc.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I would encourge anyone concerned with the issue to look beyond the mere blurbs being shown on the tv and examine the legislation for yourselves.”

“CnC - good points, but I think most know the Senate can't do anything by itself, without the House, and then the Pres.
There's a few I'm not so sure about. ;-)”

“Finally, Sec. 6 a(8) "prohibit[s] the export of oil produced under the lease"

Clearly this section is intended to prevent the selling of any extracted oil to China, Japan, etc.
CnC
9:59:21 PM
3/16/05



finally someone got smart and realized how bad we screwed up the first time around”