Just signed up for a Mountaineering Cour se

“I've always wanted to learn mountaineering. I grew up in the mountains east of Albuquerque, and living here in Chicago is tough. My trip to Alaska last year really put a fire under my *ss so I signed up for my first course. Its with Mountain Madness out of Seattle.

If anyone has any tips or advice for me I would be much obliged. Also, has anyone ever used Mountain Madness Inc? They seem like a pretty cool group. I hope to learn enough to go on a big climb next year.”

“Mountain Madness was the company involved in that Everest disaster (Rob Hall & all) a few years ago with Scott Fischer the guide for Mountain Madness. Read "Into Thin Air" for the story.”

“lol, good thing I'm not going to Everest. I've heard of the book. I was going to get a copy after I've finished "Seven Summits."”

“Can't help you with Mtn. Madness, but a few years ago we gave our oldest son a 6 day mountaineering course through American Alpine Institute for his high school graduation and he loved the program. The program was based at Mt. Baker and they ended up summiting in a near whiteout storm (the pictures he brought back were incredible). I know that he lliked their program enough that he is planning on going back for another longer course in the next year or so.”

“I used Rainier Mountain Guides for their 5 day course, summitting Mt. Rainier 2 years ago. I enjoyed their course. I have heard good things about MM. Good luck!”

“One important thing is that when they send you a list of what you need, don't be shy to contact them for more details.

If they supply the tools (harnesses, ropes, piolet, crampons, et c.) it will give you a chance to try out a variety of toys to find out before you buy what works best for you (oh, boy).

I took my courses with a different organisation, of course, but all my experiences were more than positive and I had bags of fun.

Enjoy!

Doug”

“Do some Internet research on the principals.
See what happened on big expeditions they have been on. Who died and under what circumstances.

Current principals, not Scott Fischer.

Probably the scariest book I have ever read was Jim Wickwires "Addicted to danger", no judgement of Jim but it did seem that an unusual number of his partners died.
I try and stay away from people where bad luck happens to those around them.

Another is the British climber Sir Chris Bonnington, climbers seemed to die on every expedition, not a good statistic.

The alternative is Ed Visteurs who has tried several times to climb Annapurna but turned back each time when he feels uncomfortable with avalanche conditions. A cautious climber who stays alive.

The huge fuss over Jon Krakauer's book was criticism of two guides as being not cautious enough when in a guide role rather than climbing for themselves. Lots of backlash at Krakauer because one did do heroic things in the storm, but the fact remains that both were dead in mountain accidents within 1 year.

Ed Vistiers was on Everest in 1996, and is still alive and still climbing.

Take a look at the philosophy, the mental tolerance for risk of the principals of MM, because that will reflect in how they teach.”

“On the other hand, Alex Lowe was known as an ultra-cautious mountaineer.

In Canada we have an accreditation system and I suspect there is one in the US. We have the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides (ACMG) and la Co-opérative de guides d'escalade du Québec which are both UIAA accredited (Union internationals des associations d'alpibnisme). The UIAA (www.uiaa.ch), based in Geneva, is the international organisation that oversees everything pertaining to climbing.

If you're worried you can ask about their credentials.

On the other hand I don't think the conditions that prevailed on Everest in 1996 apply to a 'high mountain manoeuvres' course here. Jon Krakauer also discusses how both guide operations have modified there procedures since the tragedy.

I am quite sure the course will be both valid and fun.

Doug”

“Gonna disagree with you here Doug,

No matter what a persons credentials are, their personal style and risk tolerance may differ from yours.

An informed consumer is a wise consumer.

In rock climbing there seem to be 2 schools.
1. The leader must never fall.
2. If the leader does not fall occasionally they are not pushing to improve hard enough.

I am from school 1, the protection is there in case I fall I hope it is never needed.
I accept that my rate of progress will be much, much slower than school 2, but look on this as a hobby only and I will avoid the chance of getting hurt.

Alex Lowe is the example that excrement happens, even to the best. My example was that after Krakauers criticism, both were dead in less than a year, indicating that there may have been some substance to his criticism. May have been just coincidence too, but the accidents so soon after the warning ?.

Is it better to travel light and fast, or to travel slowly but prepared for any emergency. With the slow travel you increase your probability of getting into a survival situation, but also your chance of getting out. With light you decrease both you chance of getting into the situation but also your chance of getting out.
Light and fast relies on the philosophy of youth "It cannot happen to me".”

“Bought the Mountain Madness name from Scott Fischers estate in 1997.

Who is Christine ??

An Outside Online article
--------------
Christine Boskoff
[8,000-METER SPECIALIST]

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO BECOME one of the world's premier high-altitude mountaineers? If Christine Boskoff is any example (and she certainly is), the answer is speed, stamina, brains, experience, and the ability to persevere with a smile. "Christine takes pain very well," says Peter Habeler, the legendary Austrian climber who guided with Boskoff on Everest in 1999. "She can suffer without moaning, which few Westerners can or want to do anymore." Her ability to endure in the Death Zone has led the 34-year-old Wisconsin native to the top of the world's highest mountains. In the past six years she's ticked off six of the 14 peaks above 8,000 meters (Everest, Cho Oyu, Gasherbrum II, Lhotse, Shishapangma, and Broad Peak), in addition to becoming the only female expedition leader among the elite guide services operating on Everest. "She's got great inner confidence and experience," says American climber Charlie Fowler, who scaled Tibet's 26,291-foot Shishapangma with Boskoff last fall. "I haven't seen anybody stronger."

Five years ago Boskoff was stuck in an Atlanta cubicle, engineering flight simulators for Lockheed Martin. Off-hours she built her endurance engine by working the crags near town, whipping off ten-mile runs, and scrambling up frozen waterfalls during the Southeast's brief ice-climbing window. A spring 1993 mountaineering trip to the Bolivian Andes whetted her appetite for more substantial peaks, including the Himalayan massifs. "I'd quit my job every time a big expedition came up—Broad Peak in '95, then Cho Oyu in '96," she says. Eventually, she abandoned her office post altogether for a less tethered career; she moved to Seattle to help take over the Mountain Madness guide service in 1997, a year after the company's founder, Scott Fischer, died on Everest.

This spring, Boskoff will be back on Everest as a guide for Mountain Madness, which may yield her second summit on that peak. She'll then attempt K2's dangerous SSE Spur with Fowler. A view from the 28,250-foot pinnacle would put her halfway to becoming the first woman to climb all fourteen 8,000-meter peaks. Thing is, she's so modest about her ability, male climbers who approach her at climbing crags have no idea who they're flirting with. One day last year at Skaha Bluffs, in British Columbia's Okanagan Valley, she was besieged by a crew of twentysomething lads trying out their best lines on the attractive alpinist.

"What do you do for a living?" one asked her as she limbered up a 5.10 line. "Oh," said Boskoff, who had recently topped out on Mont Blanc and the Matterhorn, "I run a travel business." —Bruce Barcott”

“Chills,

I agree with Gremlin on this one. I am sure that the tragedy's surrounding MM are isolated to their Everest Expedition. The mountains around here are a completely different ball game. What is good for you is that the MM has taken its bad experiences with Everest and changed their way of doing things so that everyone benefits. Hope you have a great time.

-percious
www.percious.com”

“Percious,

MM is under completely different ownership.
Only the name was purchased in 1997.

The Mountains have almost all the same risks here as anywhere. Lower altitude reduces the AMS risk, but as everyone spends less acclimitization time the risks are still there 14,400 for Rainier and 20,306 are plenty high enough. And plenty of deaths from falls, avalanches, hypothermia and combinations of those.

A mentality of "its only a little mountain" is a recipe for disaster.”

“"A mentality of "its only a little mountain" is a recipe for disaster."

Truely.

However, the amount of time you spend on McKinley, and Rainier are considerably less than that of Everest. Furthermore, the required ferrying of gear is less, so the miles traveled is less. Less time=Less risk.

-percious”

“Bell rang, gotta go, but I'll be back.

Doug”

“Born out by risk stats.
10.3 per 1000 die on Denali
200 per 1000 die on Everest

But more accessible Mountains see more traffic.”

“I have been interested in those stats for years. Where did you find them?

-percious
www.percious.com”

“Actually the Everest death rate has dropped significantly and is now only at about 9%

20% was cumulative up to 1993

Get a spreadsheet and play with these numbers
http://www.everesthistory.com/everestsummits/summitsbyyear.htm

Do note though that the total is 186 and Mt Washington at 6288ft in New Hampshire has 131.”

“This is great info. Where can I find stuff on other Mountains?

-percious
www.percious.com”

“lol, thanks for the interesting discussion and the tips.

MM seems like a good group of people. I'm really excited about taking their course.

Both percious and manuka are right, IMHO. It is less dangerous on a smaller mountain, but that's no reason to let your guard down. In this course we will be climbing a small mountain. MM doesn't say which one because of the changing weather changes the destination.

I just know I'm gonna get to learn to do stuff I've always wanted to learn.”

“Out of curiosity, did you check out NOLS? They are the defacto mountaineering school for North America.

-percious”

“Before I begin I just want to say that I'm really just killing time before seeing the librarian to set up a couple of projects. My only real mountaineering experience is winter outings in the Adirondacks and I know I sometimes sound like a know-it-all because (I think) of my somewhat formal writing style (I can't help it).

Also a few good sites are: www.americanalpineclub.org the AAC publishes the American Alpine Journal which publishes and preserves statistics on accidents. You can also google the Alpine Club of Canada which is pretty much the same thing on a poorer, smaller scale. Two interesting sites are www.aai.cc (the American Alpine Institute) and www.summitpost.org.

Manuka is right, of course, climbing, with or without a guide is inherently dangerous and this brings up some ethical issues - remember, I don't have the answers.

Two winters ago several high school students died in an avalanche in the Canadian Rockies while on a professionally guided school backcountry ski trip. The subsequent inquiry indicated neither negligence nor poor judgement on the part of the guides.

All right, accidents happen and they are clearly more frequent in hazardous terrain. The guides did their job as well as anyone could expect and the issue is: is it wise to take students to an area which, unlike an alpine ski resort, is hazardous to the point where one can lose one's life without negligence as a causal factor?

I teach climbing on our school's indoor wall and have taken students rock and ice climbing under qualified instructors. On one such foray I was placed in a situation of danger and on another, when we were ice climbing at Mont St-Hilaire in Quebec a student on an outdoor programme with a Montreal college died in the Adirondacks when - unroped at the top of a waterfall (insanity) - fell thorought the ice to lodge between the rock and ice with water pouring down on him. He died before they could get to him.

I am in an ethical quandary at this very moment. I am a qualified instructor - but not qualified to train instructors. I set up a course for our Phys. Ed. teachers which turned out to be a fiasco. It turned out to be a turf war (I'm an English teacher) and when the other teachers realised just how demanding and intensive a two-day course is in this field refused to do their homework project or to attend the second day.

At this moment one of these teachers is having students climb above 2,5m on our school climbing wall. I asked her if she had done the prep activities and she didn't know what I was talking about. I explained that at no time and in no filed or discipline does a teacher begin a learning module with the terminal objective (climbing). In rugby, hockey, Literature, History one begins with the basic element (movement) and the necessary enrichment to finish with students well prepared to perform the final task.

A climbing module begins with basic rock movement (hands in front of the face, butt out and use of the legs rather than the arms, et c. - the opposite of ice climbing). I do this on our bouldering wall which goes from easy to difficult from left to right and the feet must never go higher than the 2,5m bar on the wall. The bar is marked off in 50cm intervals so that students can meaasure their (own) progress.

The next module is verification of safety equipment - ropes, harnesses and tubular descenders/belay devices. When they can qickly and effectively find unacceptable weaknesses (I use gear and ropes that I have condemned) we move on to the next module.

This module is belay movement. The students are groupes two by two with a top rope slung just once over the bar - one takes in while the other feeds (I use a bunch of harnesses that I condemned once I had taken my first course, as well as the ropes I condemned at the same time). Next the student teams learn to tie in (to each other) with a figure 8 knot with 3m lengths of rope that I bought for the purpose. They also learn a hip belay because I put another student on hip belay behind the belayer and on the same rope.

Only then are the kids ready for climbing and for the first attempt an instructor oversees a maximum of three climbers - and six belayers.

Once the kids are proficient - and it doesn't take long - I string six ropes and occupy eighteen kids at a time while the others boulder.

Due to the wide range in size and weight of the kids it is unwise (in my opinion) to have kids assuring bouldering style, that is on their knees on crash mats with their hands held up toward the boulderer. I use extra thick (60cm/2ft?) matresses.

This was all Greek to the teacher and she took a fifteen minute recess to look at the manual of the course she had refused to take. She came to see me on her way to the gym and said she had forgotten how complicated it all was.

I walked away and am hoping nothing happens to one of the kids who are climbing right now. I ought to go to the boss and insist she stop the activity but that's when it would really hit the fan. WTF do I do?

I said all that just to point out that, while shyte can always happen,we all really do need to know the basics before we do anything hazardous.

I suspect (note the disclaimer) that Mountain Madness and other commercial operations that specialise in climbing and alpine instruction are capable of giving solid information and skills that are absolutely essential before one sets out. After that you're basically on your own and will go on (I hope) to gather useful experience. But, as Mark Twight wrote, 'Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.'

Outside of guided excursions I've taken (I'm translating freely here), basic rock climbing (to 5.9 which is necessary for the lead course), basic ice climbing, high mountain manoeuvres, avalanche rescue, crevasse rescue initiateur (the lowest level if instructor, animateurand instructeur are next and 'common basic practices' Apprentissage de base commun which is the pre-requisite to further instruction as a guide/instructor. This last course is a toughy and ensures that my knowledge, practices and operating procedures are current and correct (conforme).

My instructors, course content and the organisme (Ecole nationale d'escalade du Québec) are all UIAA certified.

The point is that good instruction with competent instructors and organisations are readily available and ablsolutely necessary.

It would, I think be unwise to discourage the taking of any course that will give skill and knowledge that are necessary in hazardous places and conditions.”

“5.9 before you can take a course in leading ?? wow.

I am about a 5.5 climber, and lead 5.3 and some easier 5.4's.”

“A guy that works for me took the EXUM Guides climbing/mountaineering course[url]http://www.exumguides.com/[url]. He was very impressed by the instructors.

I'll probably take the snow course prior to doing Gannett Peak this summer.”

“I can't believe I wrote all that! I guess I was moved by the thread title to unload some of my personal concerns. I have put this thread on my favourite list in case there is an incident here. It might prove important if I have to testify.

Anyway, back to the real world.”

“be cautious with where you go with that.

I teach Hunter safety and we get legal guidelines from the State.
There is something about negligence if you are the expert on site and knowingly allow an unsafe condition to exist. Presumption of knowledge. Silence is negligence. There is a responsibility to take reasonable action to stop unsafe practices. Reasonable action would be to tell the person to desist, and why, and if they do not; to notify the supervisor, and the childs guardians.

Otherwise you are also liable if an accident occurs, because with your 'expertise' you could reasonably be expected to see the risk and been in a position to prevent the accident.”

“I just did a 5.7 last weekend and was quite happy with that. I got up about 1/2 a 5.8, but it was the end of a long day so I did not make it the entire distance. I probably won't do any leading until I get to 5.9 or 5.10, there is too much top-rope stuff around.

Gremlin-
How much further are you going to take your cravasse training? If I were to go on a trip on a mountain like say, McKinley, I would want to practice cravasse rescue before we headed fully into the danger zone.

Are you qualified to at least show someone the ropes? I learn quickley when I am doing...

-percious”

“Thanks, Manuka, it's a little different here, but not much.

I have voiced my concerns to the teacher and this thread will help to cover me.

Percious (et al.), I do my courses with the Montreal Section of the Alpine Club of Canada and most of them are free. Not bad for Cdn46$/year. The Montreal section sets them up with a certified climbing school and they charge for these courses, but subsidise them too and supply the equipment. I have all my own gear, but the courses run about Cdn40$.

My ABC course cost me 150$, but the school gave me a budget and I even got a room and half my meals covered.

There is a rock rescue course coming up, but you have to be a certified lead climber and I'm not there yet.

I would join the American Alpine Club and see what they have to offer in the way of courses.

I would love to go to General Mountaineering Camp, but I'll be renovating my old, one room schoolhouse where I live. This is a one-week summer (but with glaciers and real mountains) course in the Canadian Rockies organised by the ACC with the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides (UIAA). I'm sure the local section of the AAC offers the same kind of thing.”

“Ah, I think I was mis-understood, but still useful information; thanks.

What I meant is that I would want one of my companions on McKinley to show me the ropes the the day before we head into the cravasse zone. That person would have to be comfortable with my ability to think on my feet, and learn quickly. I will check out the aac however.

-percious
www.percious.com”

“There are 2 sides to crevasse rescue.

1. you are in the crevasse and are conscious.
2. your partner is in the crevasse.

You can practise #1 with a top rope over an ovehang. Clip into a loop so your feet are off the ground ~and~ you are wearing a significant backpack. Be very careful with rocks and your head, as you may (probably will) be upside down because of the backpack weight.

Use a sling to clip the backpack to the loop and take the backpack off. Or this can be part of your crevasse prep and have the backpack pre-clipped. Then just take the pack off.
Get yourself right side up.
Set up your prussiks.
Climb the rope up to the overhang.
Remove one prussik at a time and reset above the overhang.
Climb out.

A whole lot easier to say than to do.
Dangling, swinging around in circles, rope below the bottom prussik not behaving.
The first couple of times will be exhausting, much better to get through that at your local crag in the warm than in an ice hole with the added shock of the fall.

#2 rescue, self arrest, .. really fast (see what happened on Mt Hood)
Then get yourself out of the anchor (read "Into the Void" to see what happens if you cannot do this)
Set up a mechanical advantage pulley system and haul your partner out (FOTH)

Equipment needed
Self rescue:
- carabiner and sling to clip pack to rope (sling can be girth hitched to pack haul strap)
- 2 Prussik loops, 1 long for foot or feet, 1 short for harness at waist.
2 locking carabiners - 1 to clip into rope, 1 for waist prussik.

Partner rescue
2 snow anchors - snow stakes or ice screws
1 to replace your self arrest position, the other for the rescue pulley.
2 prussiks (you already have these)
1 pulley.
Miscellaneous carabiners and slings (about 4 of each)”

“The first part is hard to picture, at least with the taking backpack off part.

A) assuming you have a harness on, how are you tied in to the other climber?

B) I am also assuming you are not carrying your pack up with you while climbing out, so it is left dangling in the hole while you climb the rope. How exactly is the pack attached to the rope?

The second part mentions your partner hauling you out:

a) how can he be hauling you if you are climbing up? I am assuming this is under the assumption the person on the other end has suffered some kind of injury and cannot climb.

b)How do you go about making a pully to create the necessary mechanical advantage to pull 250+lb of climber and gear out?

One of the things I want to master before I start lead climbing is how to climb a rope using prussiks.

-percious”

“Percious,

Crevasse rescue occurs when you are hiking on a glacier, not vertical climbing.
You are hiking into a mountain to set up camp somewhere in reach of the summit, so you are carrying all your gear in a backpack, or some of your gear in a backpack and dragging a pulk (sled).
So for B, assume you are wearing a pack, and practice with a pack.

Get a 2ft sling, which is 4ft of webbing in a loop. Tie with a girth hitch to the haul loop of the pack, use a biner to clip the sling onto the same loop in the rope that you clip into.
When in the hole, you take the pack off and it now helps to weight the bottom of the rope so it does not bounce around so much.

Because you are on a glacier and there is a risk of crevasses covered by snow so they are very hard to see you are roped together about 50ft apart, 3 people on a 100ft rope, 5 on a 200ft. Figure 8 loop on each end, and Alpine Butterflies in the center.
You are always clipped in, not tied in, so you can fix the rope to the anchor and get out to perform rescue.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHO WILL FALL, could be the first person, a person in the middle or the person at the end.
If you are crossing a snow bridge, each person not crossing will already be in a belay position, but a hidden crevasse that you just happen to fall through is bad news.

BTW. those people roped together on Mt Hood should have unroped once they had passed the top of the glacier.

The second part is that the faller may well be injured, if left in the crevasse they will die of hypothermia. And the crevasse could curve in a lot at the top, everytime they get on the lip it breaks off, a haul to help them out can be a good thing.

b) spend $20 and buy < Mountaineering Freedom of The Hills will have diagrams and a better explanation than I can give.”

“Oh, and please do not mix lead climbing on rock with crevasse rescue, completely different animals.”

“spend $20 and buy < Mountaineering Freedom of The Hills will have diagrams and a better explanation than I can give

--already got it. I gotta look over that section again tonight.

Oh, and please do not mix lead climbing on rock with crevasse rescue, completely different animals

--not mixing, climbing a rope is climbing a rope. Practicing at home, or at the gym is a good thing to do, and knowing how to climb a rope is an important skill to have for lead climbing, in case you are traversing a lip and slip.

got a link for the Mt. Hood thing? Have no idea what you are talking about.

-percious
www.percious.com”

“http://portlandor.about.com/cs/outdoorrecreation/a/mthoodtragedy.htm

better link
http://www.i-world.net/oma/news/accidents/2002-05-30-hood.html

Just google - Mt Hood 2002 crevasse - and you will get tons of info
last edited: 3/24/05 2:00:24 PM”

“oh yeah, i saw a video of the helicopter before. I have heard Mt. Hood is dangerous. I plan on going there sometime, just dont know when.

-percious”

“The course I took was an intensive one evening, two-day course. Friday evening we looked at the equipment and got the theory and we practised over the next two days. We were all exhausted Sunday evening.

All the beta is in any standard mountaineering book, but the best I've seen is Glacier Travel and Crevasse Rescue by two editors at Climbing Magazine. It has excellent instruction and illustrations.

Even with that, I don't think I'd understand it if I hadn't taken the course - things are very different in the field.

Doug”

“Gremlin-

Were you using ascenders or prussiks? I think a set of ascenders would be useful since they aparently clean the line of ice as you climb.

-percious
www.percious.com”

“Percious, Ascenders chew up the rope a lot more than prussiks.



All ascenders use some form of teeth to grip the rope, This eventually shreds the sheath.”

“The ascender I was thinking of was like this:

http://www.mgear.com/pages/product/product.asp/level1_id/0/level2_id/0/level3_id/0/item/103052

Which i thought was mostly cam operated.

-percious”

“Yep, and the cams have teeth that bite into the rope. This is why mountaineering expeditions keep separate their climbing ropes from fixed lines.
Fixed lines are static rope, cheaper, expendable, but with a limited life. Once they get chewed up they need replacing.
Climbing ropes need to absorb the shock of a fall, much greater stress, much greater chance of breakage, and you do not want to climb on a rope with any damage.”

“well, I think McKinley would only require static ropes, no? So why not just bring a static rope and shoot for the stars, seems like climbing with an ascender is superior to using prussiks in some ways.

-percious
www.percious.com”

“Percious,

Climbing with an ascender is superior, no question.

But how do you get the rope up there in the first place ?? That is the climbing, and if you fall while climbing you will fall twice the distance of rope paid out beyond your last piece of protection. That is called a leader fall, take a lead fall on a static rope and you die from the shock of the stop (unless a very short fall).”

“It has been my impression that McKinley is nothing more than a really long walk, no technical climbing, other than possible crevasse fall. Static line on a crevasse fall a bad thing? I think a 150 dollar rope is a small price to pay when you are considering climbing Denali, and if ascenders work better they are the way to go...

-percious”

“The difference between static and dynamic ropes (and semi dynamic for indoor gyms) is the stretch factor.

I did my course with prussiks with cordelette and we also looked at a Machard variant with slings.

A lot of the difference is style and custom and there is some variation between Canadian and US operating procedures. Our guides preferred the lighter weight and less damage to the rope approach of Prussiks.

About Prussiks and ropes - Canadians have used 7mm and the Americans wtrite about 6mm, but ropes have changed dramatically recently and become much thinner.

Aside from standard, single dynamic ropes there are half ropes and twin ropes. Half ropes are used where friction might be a problem. Friction is what killed Göran Kropp. When a rope is clipped into a quick draw (the first quickdraw must have a shorter sling than the next ones so that friction is on only the first and the last) friction is created. Friction will prevent the rope from stretching fully (a friction demonstration is both amazing and sobering, BTW) and put excessive strain on the top pro and can pull it out, the extra distance of the fall can unzip the rest of the pro and be fatal.

With half ropes one clips in alternately, thus reducing the friction by half, theoretically. A long half rope makes carrying a seperate rappel rope unnecessary, but it has to be carried all by one person.

Twin ropes are used by serious, technical alpinists and they are not to be clipped in seperately, but used to-gether as one rope. This adds to safety where there is a possibility of cutting the rope with the crampons (count the patches on the gaiters of an ice climber or ask him why he binds the bottoms of his bibs with duct tape). Also two people can carry the rope and it can thus be long enough for decent rappels.

Traditionally single ropes were 9,5mm to 11mm in diameter, half ropes 9mm (mine is an old 8,6) and twins were 8,5. PMI has come out with a twin rope that is half rope rated at 8mm diamter!

This does not pose a problem for prussiks because they are generally tied round both ropes for rappel back-up, et c. In alpine use and especially in glacier travel a lighter half rope is used singly, however, and the prussik must be at least 3mm thinner to work on a rope. Also, in alpine situations two prussiks should ALWAYS attach your harness to the rope and if this practice had been observed by Joe Simpson and Simon Yates Touching the Void would never have been made and I guess they wouldn't be rich to-day.

This means that for my 8,6mm rope I need 5mm cordelette for prussiks - not 6 or 7.

Static ropes stretch very little because when you come off it's not a dynamic fall and one tends to slip only to the end of one's tether, or cow's tail. The Park Service installs two static ropes on the last, steep pitch of the West Buttress route on McKinley. I would bring two Tiblocks which Manula showed for this section. Dry coated ropes are slippery and I think they'd be the right choice, paricularly if conditions are icy. I believe the Service checks the condition of the rope regularly.

T?hat's about it, I guess.”

“The ascender is ONLY good for going up (hence its name). To get down the other rope or any other a prussik is needed. The machard (both are family names and I can't decide if they ought to be capitalised) normally can only go up, but the variant can go both ways, but I would trust the prussik more on a single strand of rope.”

“There are old mountaineers, and there are bold mountaineers, but there are no old, bold mountaineers.”

“

First ascents for Broad Peak (8047m) 1957, and Dhauligiri (8167) 1960.

He is still around - awesome.

Also Peter Harbela and Reinhold Messner are both still alive.

3 out of how many thousand ??”

“Keep in mind Messner sacrificed his own brother for a first route.

-percious
www.percious.com”

“Doug-

I am planning to buy a 10.3 or 11mm rope this summer, and start some outside top-roping. Exciting stuff... You plan on double-roping for crossing cravasses on McKinley? You still planning on sending me a gear/logistics list?

-percious”

“Yeah, I'm nearing the end of term and the correcting/shouting at the kids is hectic now.

Glacier travel doesn't put a lot of strain on a rope and climbers generally carry the lightest and tie in as a single rope.

11mm is ONLY good for top roping. You might want something that you can sport (or even trad) climb with - even as a second.

Can you join a club in your area?”