Iraq Going Well (Bush Right Again!!!)

“http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=39670

500 FREAKING YEARS THE SWISS HAVE OCCUPIED ITALIAN TERRITORY AND NOT ONE QUIBBLE OUT OF THE LEFT IN THIS COUNTRY.

Heck I thought Switzerland was neutral (unless you count supporting the Nazis in World War II) Hey what is all this about????”

“DNB: I agree with your final sentence. I also agree that our casualties in in WWII dwarfed anything that is happening in Iraq. Comparing our losses in the two events is ridiculous - but so is comparing the emergency, the capacity and numbers of our enemy and what was at stake.

Given what we were up against in WWII - and what we had in terms of military ability and other committments - I would shudder to see how much worse things would have gone if we had the gang that couldn't shoot straight in charge.”

“It’s only ridiculous because it doesn’t fit your needs. OK, fine then. Compare it to the losses going after Japan then. Country about the same size. Even with all the islands we had to take.”

“I see the usual suspects are still focused on narrow propagandized snapshots of the Iraqi milieu and crying and wringing their hands Chicken Little style. Pathetic. Did Iraq go as well as was expected? Of course not. Is it totally FUBAR? Nope, right now, each of the major players has more to gain from a coalition government and some semblence of stability than from full-blown civil war. Chances are the U.S. presence will be greatly drawn down in the next year or so, and moved to Western desert encampments. Once the U.S. is less visible, what little use the Iraqis had for the peasant jihadists/terrorist forces will become irrelevent. Also, Iran has seen virtually no sign of Iraq becoming a satellite of Tehran, and Iraqi shiites are increasingly resisting their meddling. So, once again, the truth lies somewhere between the communist-sponsored "Iraq is failed" and whatever government propaganda on the other end (likely closer to the latter). The U.S. will get its bases (and a very real geopolitical axe), the shiites, sunnis, and kurds will fight it out to some extent - because there's not a ruthless dictator suppressing ancient feuds. There will be a stable government of some sort, because the Iraqis are keenly interested in making money. There will be high levels of corruption and crime. The jihadis will go home and/or face the wrath of their once benefactors. The Iranians will be left with little gained or lost. Not bad for a ME country.

I know it's not good discussion forum material, but Iraq just isn't as dramatic as some of you make out. Just give it a couple more years, and we'll all be talking about how bad we've messed up Iran after bombing their nuclear and military infrastructure, and $5 gas, and Iraq will largely be forgotten. ;-)”

“That last bit from mutt has the ring of truth.”

“Nigal's corpse: I was actually trying to agree with you that the losses in Iraq are nothing compared to what we lost in Europe in WWII.

However if you want ot compare to Japan. Japan was major imperialist state with a massive military build up and a military machine that provided legitimate competition to ours. It was not backward, bombed out - disabled fifedom with a nasty weakened despot .”

“To what end this global strategy Mutt. How is it advantageous to have bases in Iraq compared to ones in Kuwait?”

“Weekend Despot?

No way! He was a 9 to 5 Despot.”

“But Ped, wasn't Iraq like the #5 military power in the world not so long ago?”

“A lot fo what Mutt says, I agree with. The US still has cards to play in Iraq and the US can still manage to avoid the extreme negatives: 1) A failed state or ungovernable province in Iraq that could do for Al-Qeda and their ilk what Afghanistan once did, 2) A new province or proxy for an empowered and expanding Iranian hard line presence. I have less faith than he does that we will play our cards right, but I still have hope - its an open question and time will tell.

One thing Mutt misses here is the loss of prestige for the US. The US has lost respect and friendship in much of the world. A precipitous withdrawal from Iraq would make this worse. A reasonably successful outcome would provide some redemption. People may not fear us as enemies any less than they did six years ago, but they are more wary of our friendship.

The point about Iran is well taken. We have moved from an indisputably just and definitely manageable intervention in Afghanistan, to a more dicey intervention in Iraq which involved moving resources and attention from Afghanistan (with potentially very negative consequences. Our stand off with Iran is complicated by our occupation of Irag (becasue Iran has some influence in Iraq, because of the size of our military commitment there, because potential allies are more nervous and mistrustful).

My guess is that the US will try to cow Iran with the threat of major military strikes - not an Iraq style invasion and occupation - and will probably be willing to carry out the threats and ratchet the strikes upwards in intensity depending Iran's response. I wonder how well this will work.”

“They might have been legitimate #5 before Bush I beat them and we embargoed them.”

“I agree with Mutt that there's a bigger picture here - I'd just question if the plan will be effective.”

“The reason the U.S. has lost prestige (although I'd question how much was there before polling apples and apples) is that the world media pressed how the the United States made a unilateral (defined as 30+ nations) move to tackle Saddam. The reason it was unilateral (defined as 30+ nations) is largely in part due to the UN Food for Oil Scandle participated in a large extent by the opposing nations to the war.

Therefore, the world can "kiss my grits". If people are that stupid that they can't think for themselves as to the big picture, why would anybody care what they think?

Some people define themselves by their popularity. Others define themselves by doing what is right and just. Bush chose the later in this situation. Of course, he's taking the opposite position in regards to the nations border, so I'm not putting him on a very high pedestal.”

“To what end this global strategy Mutt.

Real leverage in the middle east, as has already been born out in some ways.

How is it advantageous to have bases in Iraq compared to ones in Kuwait?

Look at a map!

One thing Mutt misses here is the loss of prestige for the US. The US has lost respect and friendship in much of the world.

Pbbthtththth - it's a natural consequence of being the only superpower for so long more than anything else. The Iraq war makes for some nice propaganda, but so what? They're playing to their home crowd, in which Anti-Americanism is in vogue. Further, I don't count alienating Old Europe as something to be concerned about. They'll come back to the fold when they realize how marginal they are without us and when they realize China and lesser despotic states won't guarantee their security (friends sure tell a lot about a country's character). Plus, don't forget all the inroads after 9/11 we made with a host of countries concerning military and political ties (the Stans, archipelagous SE Asia, others). Now having said that, the Bush admin has made some blunders (NK and South America come to mind), but not along the lines fabricated by the anti-Bush leftists that you regurgitate.”

“I swear to Isis, listening to Ped pontificate about global events sometimes reminds me of the episode of M*A*S*H where Col. Henry Blake is trying to explain Hawkeye and Trapper John how much the Koreans want soft serve ice cream.”

“However if you want ot compare to Japan. Japan was major imperialist state with a massive military build up and a military machine that provided legitimate competition to ours. It was not backward, bombed out - disabled fifedom with a nasty weakened despot .”
pedxing
11:17:10 AM
5/08/06

Ped, you obviously slept through the WORLD WAR II Stuff in history. WE LITERALLY BOMBED JAPAN into dust. The reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were picked was that the major cities had been firebombed to ashes.

As for the gang that can't shoot straight...want to debate the politicization of the Arnhem excursion (A Bridge Too Far) where even the Brits admit we wasted equipment and men to make Montgomery look good. If Patton and Clark had the same equipment we would have been in Berlin in the winter of 1944.

The truth is that in war men die, in the media that only is heroic with a socialist is in the White House.”

“It must be nice to have a view of the world that precludes ever being wrong or unsure.

Those of you who are able to do this should share the secret.”

“Maybe its all that artificial sweetener, coloring and flavoring, Phaedrus.”

“Bomb all the oil facilities in Saudi, Iran and Iraq while removing all americans and come home and live with $15.00 gal gasoline.
After a year or so you'll be asking yourself 'Middle WHAT'?”

“I'd gladly pay the $3-$4 a gallon for ethonal if it meant seeing the oil producing countries town back to the stone age.”

“But Mutt - now correct me if I'm wrong - that part of the reformation of the military was to create a more mobile force designed to fight anywhere in the world at short notice. Ok, I can see that flying them out from the US would be costly, but not as costly as invading Iraq in terms of the likelyhood of being allowed to maintain long-term bases elsewhere, as well as not as costly in financial and fatality terms.
If this is all about bases then all this to have a base a few hundred miles further north?”

“All this Mutt when you have bases in Kuwait, Bahrain (not sure on this one) Afganistan, Nato bases in Turkey, bases in Uzbeckistan, on Diego Garcia, on Guam.”

“Here's what Republicans said about Clinton and Kosovo


Why did they second-guess our commitment to freedom from genocide and demand that we cut and run?

"President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be
away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."

-Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That's why I'm against it."

-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."

-Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of presidential candidate George W. Bush


Why did they demoralize our brave men and women in uniform?

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning...I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."

-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)


"You think Vietnam was bad? Vietnam is nothing next to Kosovo."

-Tony Snow, Fox News 3/24/99


"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years"

-Joe Scarborough (R-FL)


"I'm on the Senate Intelligence Committee, so you can trust me and believe me when I say we're running out of cruise missles. I can't tell you exactly how many we have left, for security reasons, but we're almost out of cruise missles."

-Senator Inhofe (R-OK )

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarifiedrules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"I don't know that Milosevic will ever raise a white flag"

-Senator Don Nickles (R-OK)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"

-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99


Why didn't they support our president in a time of war?


"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."

-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)


"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem."

-Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)

"The two powers that have ICBMs that can reach the United States are Russia and China. Here we go in. We're taking on not just Milosevic. We can't just say, 'that little guy, we can whip him.' We have these two other powers that have missiles that can reach us, and we have zero defense thanks to this president."

-Senator James Inhofe (R-OK)


"You can support the troops but not the president"

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)


"My job as majority leader is be supportive of our troops, try to have input as decisions are made and to look at those decisions after they're made ... not to march in lock step with everything the president decides to do."

-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)


For us to call this a victory and to commend the President of the United States as the Commander in Chief showing great leadership in Operation Allied Force is a farce"
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)


Why did they blame America first?

Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly."

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)


"Once the bombing commenced, I think then Milosevic unleashed his forces, and then that's when the slaughtering and the massive ethnic cleansing really started"

-Senator Don Nickles (R-OK)

"
Clinton's bombing campaign has caused all of these problems to explode"

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)


"America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo's capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country"

-Pat Buchanan (R)


"These international war criminals were led by Gen. Wesley Clark ...who clicked his shiny heels for the commander-in-grief, Bill Clinton."

-Michael Savage


"This has been an unmitigated disaster ... Ask the Chinese embassy. Ask all the people in Belgrade that we've killed. Ask the refugees that we've killed. Ask the people in nursing homes. Ask the people in hospitals."

-Representative Joe Scarborough (R-FL)


"It is a remarkable spectacle to see the Clinton Administration and NATO taking over from the Soviet Union the role of sponsoring "wars of national liberation."

-Representative Helen Chenoweth (R-ID)


"America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo's capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country"

-Pat Buchanan (R )


"By the order to launch air strikes against Serbia, NATO and President Clinton have entered uncharted territory in mankind's history. Not even Hitler's grab of the Sudetenland in the 1930s, which eventually led to WW II, ranks as a comparable travesty. For, there are no American interests whatsoever that the NATO bombing will
either help, or protect; only needless risks to which it exposes the American soldiers and assets, not to mention the victims on the ground in Serbia."”

“Ok, I give up. I've been randomly picking from the above quotes trying to find them in context, and have failed miserably.

Red flag.

”

“Bateaux....um yes they offered intial opposition, but once the war (or hummer protection plan) started...they supported the country. Kinda like the one congresswoman who voted against the declaration of War in World War II.....

See it is called putting COUNTRY ahead of POLITICS...sadly good soclialists are intent on CONTROL...they cannot see the greater good over their psychotic desire for PURE POWER>”

“Good post Bateauxdriver. goose > gander.”

“Great post Bateaux - Fine quote from Tony Snow.”

“XL: Errr... did you sleep through History classes or just never look into WWII history? The US didn't bomb Japan into submission until well into the war. They were a pretty tough foe when the war started, with a growing empire, too. Our pre-war embargoe of Japan was troublesome, but not debilitating for Japan by any stretch.

Now, if we compare occupations - they both took place after the "host" country was battered. Seems the US occupation of Japan went far better. There was some very good research done on the psychology of Japanese by people who knew the culture and the planners of the occupation took it very seriously.”

“Anybody find the context of those quotes yet? All over the web, but hardly a context to be found.”

“Nigal's corpse swears to Isis and I'm a Pontiffffffffff....


or was it this Isis?

http://www.secularislam.org/

or this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis_Nile
last edited: 5/09/06 10:27:10 AM”

“El Wrongo Ped, McArthur ruled the country like a virtual Dictatorship for the first number of years. McArthur dictated policy and had a direct hand in redrawing the Constitution. Most importantly the Emporer had to renounce his "status as a diety" (this would be akin to having the moslems renounce Mohammed and his brothers Larhammed and Curlhammed).

Our Occupation of Japan ended in 1952. For anyone keeping score, if you consider the first major hostile act as the Taking of Manchuria (1931) this is 21 years of war and occupation. I still wonder if in 1931 our forces had been sent to assist the Chinese and throw back the Fascisim of Japan how many total lives would have been lost (kinda like if the Brits and Frogs had had the Cojones to respond to the retaking of the Rhineland in 1936). I am betting that in 1931 Japan was not totally ready to fight the combined arms of the world.

But we waited until they were on our doorstep. Today we don't have that luxury today wars can begin and end in a matter of days. I doubt we would have 6 months to build an effective response to such an attack.”

“El Wrongo? Who the hell are you? Fonzie?

Haha!”

“Sorry Nig' trying to appeal to any illegals that tune into the thread.....”

“How the heck does McCarthur's authoritarianism mean that we didn't do a better job with the Japanese occupation? How the heck does it contradict the idea that we did our homework better in terms of figuring out how to manage the occupation?”

“For example - the US commissioned anthropologist Ruth Benedict to do a careful study of cultural issues that needed to be understood by the US occupation force. Understanding culture doesn't mean kissing butts - but its important to being able to figure out how to govern effectively.

It's still interesting to read the intro pages of her classic book, based on the commissioned study:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0395500753/ref=sib_fs_bod/104-4809800-6659113?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00F&checkSum=Tv1WXAcQCraNUxZ6GCJ%2FRSQwS%2Fm1nJgvqaU7rzocEFA%3D#reader-page
last edited: 5/09/06 8:46:03 PM”

“Ok, I give up. I've been randomly picking from the above quotes trying to find them in context, and have failed miserably.


Red flag.
”
Sarge
8:32:22 PM
5/08/06

"and have failed miserably."

Something that you should be used to by now.”

“It is refreshing to see the neo-cons revising history from WWII to help/spin thier cuase at this point. Maybe this is a tactis for some book titled "Strategeries for the Indefensible"”

“"Today we don't have that luxury today wars can begin and end in a matter of days. I doubt we would have 6 months to build an effective response to such an attack.”
XL400236
12:23:38 PM
5/09/06

That's right.
But this war will soon pass the three years and eight months of the U.S. involvement in WWII.
The U.S. armed forces supressed and conquered Japan and were instrumental in the conquering of Germany in that three years and eight months.
In a bit over three years the U.S. is far from taming a pissant country like Iraq.
What gives?
Is the Pentagon incompetent?
They do work for us and we have a right to know what they are doing with our young people and our money.”

“We are not fighting the same war we started in Iraq. This is another war.

"and have failed miserably." Something that you should be used to by now. - Buddha Bear

You win the "personal attacks instead of discussing issues" war (a war of which only you were fighting. Something that you should be used to by now.”

“umm, didn't we nuke Japan and threaten to wipe it off the face of the planet if the Emperor didn't renounce his status as a god? Are you suggesting we should have nuked Iraq?

A homogeneus society instructed by their God to surrender on an island surrounded by water so that "insurgents" couldn't infiltrate can't be compared to a middle east country whose borders were arbitrarily drawn in this century so that it contained so many seperate nationalities, religions and sects that would be happy to kill each other given the chance.”

“nm
last edited: 5/09/06 10:57:30 PM”

“Build freeways all over Iraq, give them cars and gas. They'll be in a traffic jams all the time so they won't be able to fight.
Send all of this countries liquor store owners home. Iran will never have nukes ,they won't have room.”

“Hyway you are VERY correct...but what also should be noted is the occupation of Japan dealt with the Japanese in a style THEY understood. My uncle was with the initial units. They intially treated the Japanese as little more than animals. As for the 3 years 8 month...this TOTALLY ignores the time period BEFORE we got involved.
MarkO you need to get a better refernce than the failing Leftist Media (MOTTO: Going down faster than a beer infront of a drugged up Kennedy.) such a challenge is too simplistic for even someone like Butter Bear.
If you will take a moment and check the USARMY Corps web or any others you will see infrastructure at a rate ABOVE anticipated goals and FAR exceeding anything under the regime.
I continually am amazed at people who want to walk away from Iraq, but are willing to keep dumping FREE MONEY into the failed inner city Crap holes where we have horrible conditions (pretty much as many AMERICANS being killed each day) but the people as a rule don't give a tinker's Damn.
last edited: 5/10/06 6:52:44 AM”

“"We"??

You must be an old mofo!
Ha ha!!

"As for the 3 years 8 month...this TOTALLY ignores the time period BEFORE we got involved."

What is your point?
My point is that the U.S. wrapped up the fighting in that period.
Is this NOT TRUE??

This current situation, which is of Dubya's making, has not been wrapped up.
Iraq did not have a high seas navy or much of an air force or an army of any real consequence and it has taken over three years and it still ain't over.

And it must be noted that Iraq did not have Islamic fundie fighters until the U.S. moved in.

I want my government to be accountable to the people.

That must seem "socialist" to some folks.
last edited: 5/10/06 7:07:23 AM”

“Marko...okay you do know that ENGLAND, CHINA and RUSSIA had been fighting the Germans for years when we got in?

In fact the tide was turned within 6 months...not from OUR attention (okay Midway was ours) but becuase the Axis powers were being exhausted.

NOW as for the long babbled lib line "no terrorists in Iraq. I have shown repeated examples that even the 9/11 Commission reported the presence of terror elements in Iraq BEFORE 9/11. On the Bagdahad airbase there is (or was) the fuselage of an airliner, not for firefighting or civil training, but to TEACH terrorists how to take aircraft.

I want the government accountable too...but I wonder when the MEDIA will be held accountable? I have heard so many blatantly WRONG reports in recent years that it has gotten to the point that I look at a major report and wonder,"Wow what if this was true."

The thing that is scary is that most of the Sheeple in this country really won't care regardless. They take what they are given, if their little lives are not directly impacted they see nothing and hear nothing.

I have always been in favor of a program that evaulates the reporting, in patently false situations (the saddle bag report by Nightline) the media is then charged with defrauding the consumer. They must refund three times the gross profit from the advertising for that show/edition, and they would be required to pay a penalty including printing an apology on the front page of their paper and ten top national papers the mistake, the people involved and the truth.

yeah you get them hit one or two times...then reporting may take on a new edge.”

“Yes, I do.

Again, is what I said not true?

Iraq didn't put up a fraction of the fight that the Axis did regardless of Russian, British and Chinese involvlment.
Why is this thing still not wrapped up??

Our people are being used as Al Qaida Bait.
Draw in the bad guys and kill them.
I don't think they will run out of bad guys for quite some time.

I want to know what our government is doing with our young people and our money.

"The thing that is scary is that most of the Sheeple in this country really won't care regardless. They take what they are given, if their little lives are not directly impacted they see nothing and hear nothing."

Yup, those are the ones who voted for and still support our Liar In Chief.

Is the media running the Pentagon?

I guess they are reporting too much bad news for some of you guys.”

“MarkO...It took this adminstration less time to take Iraq than it too Janet el Reno to take Waco (LOL). As for the brainless voters...both sides have them.
I have not a bit of trouble with the media reporting their side, as long as they don't intentionally lie. But then Socialists are bascially Pigs who eat their own....their policies have always been built on lies, so they must support them with lies.”

“I'd like to point out that the Vatican is it's own city state and the swiss guard are mercenaries hired and loyal to the vatican only.

Thank you.”

“those Swiss Guard are some badass dudes. I don't care if they look like jesters!

”