Pack Wieght

“How do you guys do it? I see all this talk of 45 pounds of wieght in your packs. When i go in for a week here, no matter what, it is always 60 pounds or more that i have to carry. I can't leave out the tent fly or stakes because we have sudden rains and winds. Have to carry a pack cover...same reason. Need from very hot weather clothes to very cold weather clothes. Any suggestions that might work for a backpacker on the Pacific Coast?”

“Post your packing list if you can. We can pick it apart and tell what you don't need or can substitute a lighter weight option.”

“Ya know? I've never weighed my pack. Iput in the stuff I need and sorta weed the less necessary things out with practice.

I suspect that reading the scales would be a lot like reading the consumer reports on the new car you just bought. The only purpose would be to get depressed.”

“Oregon... Cool!
Please Post your gear list as Wounded Knee suggested... How much of the 60lbs is Food?

Ken”

“Okay...i managed to get the wieght down to 57 pounds. And, you're right, Gremlin, i never used to wiegh my pack at all. I started wondering, though, when a friend of mine hiked in part way with me on a backpack, and he carried my pack, and couldn't believe how heavy it was. He was beat after a couple miles, and he's a lot bigger than me. Then i read the wts. people on here mentioned and i thought, jeez! Ken, my food wieghs about 8 pounds. Okay, i'll try to list the basics for you...i'd be interested in hearing what some of you would toss, or any substitutes. ('course, i'm leaving in the a.m. so i can't go buy anything new...especially out where i live.

small first aid kit in a ziploc
snake bite kit
bee sting kit
whistle, etc. safety gear
stocking cap
baseball cap
sweatshirt w/hood
wool/cotton pullover
silk undertop
t-shirt
jeans
shorts
sandals
binocs
light camera
dry bag for bear bag (the best thing i have found)
sunglasses
medical: tea tree, echinacea, vitamins
4 lb. tent
4 lb. sleeping bag
thermarest
light cookstove
one light backpack kettle
light backpack frypan
lexan silverware
light plate, bowl, cup
water filter
2 quarts water
1 light flute (yes, i need it!)
1 small book (this too!)
tent ground cloth
pack cover
tp
compass
Dr. Bronners
few small personal items (none of your beeswax!)
matches
firestarter
knife
light headlamp
light flashlight
pack rain jacket
sweetgrass braids to leave as gifts
pack pillow (i need it)
food is basically: small pack dry black beans, tortillas, dry salsa, small pack spices, small bit of oatmeal, 1 dry miso soup, 3 bagels, small pack of camper-sealed cheese, small bit of hummus, a few tea bags, 2 packets honey, dried maple sugar, part of a ziploc of sunseeds, a ziploc (small) of trail mix, a few M&M's (necessary!), part of a ziploc of dried fruit, a small packet of vegie "jerky", a couple fruit rolls.
and i think thats the lot

thanks you guys, for looking this over, and any suggestions!”

“I agree with you Gem, if I weigh my pack I'd never make it. But I just bought a new Gregory Whitney today. I was so excited to start packing it I never took a nap after working all night last night. My girlfriend came home and found me sleeping on the living room floor curled up against my half full pack. Am I sick????”

“Oread, I would personally change over the food items first. You save a ton of weight going dehydrated or freeze dried. The food tastes pretty good too, not like it used to. You could cut your tent weight and sleeping bag weight at least in half per each. Get rid of the jeans and any other cotton and go to lightweight gear from North Face or Columbia. Zip off pants work great, augment the light fabric with UnderArmour cold or Heat gear and for only a few ounces you can take on both climate extremes. Those are the things I would change, but in the end it comes down to one thing. Can you carry your pack comfortably all day? If the answer is yes who cares what weights other people carry.”

“squirrelbait...I didn't post that, but i do agree with Gremlin. I have never weight my pack, but I DO let people guess the weight. not sure why. LOL I guess I wanna know, and I don't wanna know.”

“Oread..I can see with what you listed that your pack would weigh that amount.

Is your sweatshirt with the hood all cotton? and the wool cotton pullover. Wool and cotton are both really heavy fabrics..can you substitute those for fleece or capilene maybe? Are your jeans cotton? it so those are going to be heavy.

Instead of taking a pillow, do you have a down vest they make good pillows, plus warm at night to wear.
I would only take the headlamp and leave the flashlight.
I would not take the frypan, Dr. Bonner's.
I have not heard of lexan silverware..what is that made of? I take very light weight plastic
Your tent sounds good...maybe a lighter sleeping bag..is yours down?

I don't know if this helps any..and im sure more will also respond”

“What part of Oregon do you live in? I live in Sutherlin, close to Roseburg.”

“madeintahoe... Your letting me down, Lexan is made of......... Lexan. :)LOL
Go to REI they have a GSI One-Person Lexan Table Set.

Anyway, I would start with the clothes. Jeans? My guess is that for one pair of jeans(In Wieght) you could have a whole new Base layer and Insulating layer(tops and bottoms) :)
As for the food, I'm hoping that 8lbs is for the whole week... That would actually be less food than I carry, My daily avg. is 1.4lbs.

Ken”

“I think the best way to shave weight off your list is to examine each item and explore whether or not there is a lighter version first. For instance, how much does your thermarest weight? The Thermarest Ridgrest weighs in at 14 oz. in the regular size. The same size item in another choice might go as much as 3-4 lbs.

Take a look at your pillow. Could a fleece jacket placed inside a lightweight pillowcase or stuff sack double as a pillow? Do you really need a headlamp AND a flashlight? Might one double as the other? (unless you're a suspenders and belt kind of guy).

I never pack more than one cookpot. It's made of stainless steel, but I justify that by making it do duty as a fry pan, cook pot, tea pot, bowl, etc. As for a stove, I'm converted to alcohol now, and my stove and windscreen combined weigh in at about an ounce and a half.

As for the jeans, I never ever ever carry cotton. I live in a desert, and I STILL won't carry cotton. Lightweight synthetic materials are all I wear when packing. Just as much for comfort as weight. As for my legs, I usually carry a lightweight pair of polartec fleece tights for those times when the nylon hiking pants aren't enough to keep my legs warm. Take a look at that sweatshirt and cotton pullover. Could they be replaced with lighter-weight options like fleece or a moonstone jacket? My rain jacket would double as one of my layers for colder temps. (Don't be confused by the term desert. It may be dry, but it still gets cold here. I go out many times in the fall or spring when it can get below 20 degrees F... winter camping is a different proposition altogether)

I am going to assume where you're in the northwest that there isn't much of a compromise on the tent. But 4 lbs. for a sleeping bag? My 25 below zero bag only weighs 4 lbs. The bag I typically carry for spring and fall is a zero degree bag that weighs in at 2-3/4 lbs. It's very comfy on the coldest of spring nights, at elevations over 6000 ft. My summer bag is still rated for 2o degrees and it comes in at a little over a pound and a half. How cold could it get on the Oregon coast?

How much do your binoculars weigh? Just something to think about. Maybe a lighter one could be found? How heavy is your ground cloth? Tyvek House Wrap is a very good lightweight material for that.

All of this is intended merely as food for thought. I remember my first backpack, and occasionally my weight will creep up to 50 lbs. in cold weather, but only when I'm taking a group of boys and I have to carry things like extra food, first aid kit for a larger group, extra fuel, a rope etc. When I'm on my own, I carry not only a smaller load, but I put it in a smaller lighter weight pack as well, and even that contributes to shaving off the lbs. Good luck.
last edited: 4/04/05 7:12:26 PM”

“Some of my problem is, maybe, i love cotton. Next to my skin, nothing else feels as good. Plus many of the new fabrics irritate my skin. But thanks for the thoughts on those, squirrel bait, and madeintahoe, i will check out some of that other stuff. Squirrelbait, do you have any good suggestions for tents (with "skylight" if possible) in colors that blend with the land (i like to lay low) which are, as you said, half the wieght of mine, but not too expensive. Also, sleeping bags...would like to hear your recommendations...thanks. I can carry the pack okay, but it does feel pretty heavy. I'm 5'3", so it's substantial on me! Madeintahoe, thanks for the down vest/pillow idea! Lexan is a light and sturdy plastic. My bag is not down. Slumberjack. Hey, Old Timer, i know Sutherlin! I live in Port Orford. Thanks you guys for your thoughts.”

“Ken, yes, the 8 pounds is for the whole week. Hobbit, our temperatures on the coast, and in the Siskiyous have as big a range as our ecosystems, and plant systems. It can get as cold as 15 degrees up the rivers just a ways. And it freezes right here on the coast at times. I thank you guys for your ideas. I will look into some other gear, and try some other things.”

“Oread..I know I love cotton too..it feels so nice next to the skin, the only cotton I take are 2 very light weight short sleeve shirts that I hike in during the day & my underwear.

I did use to take a very small down pillow..but got that down vest, so use that now..it serves two purposes.
My pack was always at about 42 pounds...I have gotten it down to around 37 pounds and that is for about a 5 day trip.
Ken..drukenblade..Yeah I guess that was funny me not ever hearing about lexan...I have not been in a REI store for ages...and have not gotten any new gear for ages, but now I know what lexan is.”

“Oread, this is my spring and fall bag and it comes in at around a pound and three quarters. I love it, it's several years old with little sign of wear, and it keeps me toasty when the mercury dips.”

“Madeintahoe, your 37 pound pack inspires me! I will check out some different materials...problem is, out here, it all has to be mail order, or a long day trip to get anything like that. Down is a problem here, because of all the moisture, but a down vest i could wear under my pack raincoat if i needed. Hobbit, thanks for the info on your sleeping bag. It sounds great, but a little too expensive for me. I have a humble landscape maintenance business. But the poundage of that also inspires me. I will look into some lighter (but cheaper)bags,too. For now, this trip, i will have to go with what i've got. It has been pouring here, but i'm looking forward to my trip!”

“The real key to weight is what you feel you must have to make you feel safe. At one time along time ago I packed a 32 carbine and at least 20 rounds, today its a 7' alu staff. I packed a tent for years, now its a tarp and a bivy in anything but deep winter. I like clothing that will keep me alive in most everything, that is not cotton, cotton KILLS.
I don't need a big kitchen and over time I've got mine down to 2lbs, thats a 1/2 gal pot, stove, repair kit, bowl and flatware.
But I like to eat, food av. out to 2lbs a day. What I trying to say is keep an open mind, try things but don't put yourself in a jam doing it. I also hike the Siskiyou Mts Hi Old Timer how was the Sisters”

“:-O
I haven't carried a 45 lb pack in a couple years-and I live in WA...I backpack in the Olympics, the Cascades, etc, all year long. I rarely top 30 lbs in winter-and I eat like a queen ;-)
If you are 5'3"-you are 2" shorter than me-yikes :-(
You can be comfy, safe, warm and eat well-and carry a 30 lb or less pack (and carry your own gear, not sharing with anyone the weight.)
Just dear god, get rid of that 4 lb sleeping bag ;-) But ya know, I carry a pillow (a Thermarest Prolite one) so don't dump your pillow.....”

“Oh yeah,
Use only a bowl (you don't need a plate...use paper towels if you think you do.)
Dump the frying pan.
And dear god, dump the jeans ;-) If you have to have cotten, use lighter pants.
As for down and moisture...old wive's tale-I backpack in the coastal rainforests quite often, and I sleep in a down bag, and wear adown in camp for warmth. Heck I have down socks....hehheh!!
Don't be afraid of down-it will become a friend!!”

“Hey Trinity, okay, yep, i need to rethink "cotton", do more experimenting. But then i have slept out in the woods plenty of times with nothing more than cotton and wool clothes (no gear), in cold and wet, and been great. The problem is i don't have lots of spare $$ to buy a lot of the new gear and clothes. If i can find reasonable deals, i want to try some new stuff. What you say about feeling safe, i agree on...that's why i have 2 lights. Had bad experiences with just one. I may drop the little fry pan, but sometimes i like hot tortillas or toast, and my pot doesn't do that. As for the down, sarbar, i used to always use it, but here, it always got wet, stayed wet, and then it wieghs a ton. So, i don't use it. But Madeintahoe's idea is a good one, so i'll be looking for a down vest. Thanks Trinity, and Sarbar for your thoughts. You guys have all given me things to consider, and i really appreciate it.”

“1. Way too much cooking gear. If you pre-prep your food at home before going out using cool gadgets like a dehydrator, you should be able to make just about any kind of food that rehydrates well (this might take some experimenting on your part, as what's acceptable varies with personal taste) by just boiling some water and then slipping it into a cozy. Also, canned food is a no-no. Most of your favorite conventional trail canned foods are now available in plastic pouches and are better that way because they usually contain far less water (far lighter), fit in the pack much more efficiently, and are much lighter and easier to pack out.

2. 4 lbs for a tent? Is this a solo tent, or rather, do you usually go out solo? IMHO, if you're looking to lighten up, while I wouldn't say 4 lbs is ridiculously high, it is significantly above average in typical shelter weights. For really cool shelters, check out Tarptent.com. Yeah they cost a few more bucks, but these tents are totally waterproof and bugproof, and weight pennies over 1 lb. I currently use a double -walled tent (MSR Zoid 1) whose total weight is just under 3 lbs.

3. I agree with you on the cotton clothes, especially in the summer (warmer temps -- other hikers will thank you, as cotton doesn't smell as bad (BO) as some of the synthetics). But conversely, cotton also soaks up water like a sponge, making it rather uncomfortable to wear and heavy when wet. Jeans are ridiculously heavy when dry; they only get heavier when wet. If you absolutely insist against convential hiking garb (the stuff you see at REI, etc), consider maybe gym shorts or sweatpants, or something along those lines. At the very least, they're lighter than jeans.

4. I do not carry a dedicated pillow; that would take up way too much dead space in my pack. However, I'm also a pretty warm sleeper, so I usually have at least one extra fleece that I don't wear to bed. This fleece gets put into one of my smaller stuff sacks and serves as my pillow for the night.

Let me see if I can come up with my basic summertime overnight (2 days, 1 night) gearlist (roughly my record-low 25-lb pack). Naturally, for a whole week, it's going to be a bit higher, but not by much. I did 5 days, 4 nights at Isle Royale last fall and my pack was maybe in the 35-40 lb range to start with, and by the time I left, it may have even been below 30...
last edited: 4/04/05 9:31:44 PM”

“PS...yupp post your 25lb list.

I will NEVER get under 30lb pack weight. Shoot, 30 lb would be a dream. Won't happen. One person tried it once and I #&%!$ed all the way up to the camp site. I need certain things...be it a extra jacket... my chair...etc... I need that stuff because I want to be comfortable in camp.”

“wholy schmackers...what PS said!! way too much cook wear, tent too heavy. personally I think the bag is too heavy...but if its warm?? hey...

hmm...leave the blow-up doll at home (personal item)

the dry bags are cool, but some of them are heavy. did you try the sea to summit brand? Very light!

bee sting kit?? hmm... tweezers that's all you need for a bee sting, maybe a alcohol cleaning patch.(unless your alergic)

what about the snake bite kits? I thought I heard they are a bunch of crap? not really sure...actually would like to know what you all think about that.”

“Summertime overnight gearlist (NY/New England - Daytime temps 70's/80's+ - Nighttime temps can dip as low as the 30's/40's - also usually very humid):

REI Morning Star 75 backpack (4900 cu in)
MSR Zoid 1 Tent
Fully Rectangular Down sleeping bag (500 fill)
Thermarest Guidelight - full length

Soda can stove
1 pint poland spring bottle for fuel
Titanium spork
Stainless Steel Pot and lid that doubles up as a frying pan*
Waterproof matches
Small (15x4) synthetic pack towel
2 32-oz Snapple Bottles for water
2 Liter Platypus waterbag (as necessary)
A third Snapple bottle might carry a fireside spirit (not filled completely, of course)

*The stainless steel pot is sort of my Achilles Heel. I'm looking to replace it with possibly a lighter aluminum solution for this summer. I just can't seem to justify titanium, as it weighs almost as much as aluminum, yet aluminum is much cheaper. I use a titanium spork since I got that as a gift...

50-ft parachute cord (for bear bag)
TP
First Aid Kit
Pocketknife
Cotton/wax firestarter
Oral-B Brush Strips (replace toothbrush and toothpaste)
Rain Jacket w/ Hood
Pack Cover
LED Headlamp w/ extra batteries
Compass/Flint/Whistle/Rattle combo
Camera
Mini 4" tripod (lashable to a small tree)
Water Filter

Convertible hiking pants (legs come off for shorts)
t-shirt
Mid-weight hiking socks
Baseball Cap or Bandanna (depending on weather)
Fleece (for when it gets chilly at night)
Synthetic long johns (for when it gets chilly at night)
Extra undershorts (fresh pair prevents chafing)
Mid-weight Gore-Tex hiking boots
Trekking poles

4 7x15 stuff sacks that all the stuff gets packed into according to it's functional category. One of these usually gets used as a bear bag, and one as a pillow along with the fleece.

My foods are always either dehydrated (pasta, Enertia, other stuff dried in the dehydrator, etc), naturally dry (crackers, pretzels, GORP, jerky, etc), or packed in one of those pouches (tuna, shellfish, chicken, etc). Works out really well because to make a meal, I usually simply have to boil some water and rehydrate for about 7-10 mins.

I hope I'm not forgetting anything here...
last edited: 4/04/05 10:06:17 PM”

“okay...i have to weigh my pack one of those days.

PS...you carry heavier stuff then me. so you save weight with the soda bottles, and the toot brush...but you add that again by bringing the tripod and extra batteries.
(i normally put in new batteries and give the kids the old ones for teh gameboy....they'll never know) LOL

tss. I am done. i bring my #&%!$..and won't worry about it anymore. I'll never get it under 30lb.”

“...add in a small (travel-sized) bottle of baby powder -- also does wonders against chafing, especially in the summertime...”

“PS...I think you added it all up wrong. how you get 25 lb out of ALL that heavy stuff?

I wanna know details!!”

“I should say..you can lighten a laod and spend little ;-) I am the queen of cheap!
But personally, I will say 4 lbs is fine for a tent, even for one person-don't sweat that :-)
What you might think of is the small stuff: dump water bottles and use pop bottles, dump the snake bite kit (they can make it worse if you actually get bitten by a rattler!!)
Spread your gear out on the floor and ask yourself "do I really use this?" "Will I ever use it?" Of course some things have to stay, like 1st aid and a compass, but you will be surprised by how much stuff you never use or really need. For me going light was finding out how much I truly needed to be safe and comfy. And I found that I did just fine with few extra clothes-ie, I carry only one set of extra socks and underwear, and one extra shirt. That is it. Cut weight down fast. I don't carry a heavy GTX shell anymore-I carry a cheap Sierra Designs jacket that is rain restitant and an umbrella, to shed rain and sun.
Probably my biggest weight savings was to become a freezer bag wanker.......
http://www.freewebs.com/freezerbagcooking/ (That is my website btw)
The lightest way to protect your food is with an Ursack btw-and no hanging needed :-)
I carry a down vest I might add year round (except heavy winter, then it is a down jacket). You can find down items cheap at Landsend.com!
Personally, I live for REI garage sales, regular garage sales, shopping Craigslist.com (they have one in the Portland area), thrift stores and making my own gear.
Oh yeah, and FedEx padded mailers? They make great butt pads, and are free!”

“I'm not exactly sure how it adds up, but I did actually weight my pack once to about 25 lbs with the above mentioned stuff in it. The 25 figure is a record low for me. Typically, it'll be in the upper 20's closer to 30, but I can usually get under 30 just about any time now...”

“Oread, it's taken me 20 years to accumulate my favorite backpacking gear. Lots of trial and error, saving up for that new thang etc. No matter your budget, don't settle for garbage in attempting to reach your goal. Just wait a bit longer. You'll not only appreciate it more, it will last you a LOT longer. I didn't buy everything at once, and you don't have to either. Go for the biggest weight saving items first, (think sleeping bag)then work your way through your whole pack until you have it down to the weight you want. As for the goose down vs. synthetic, let your back and your budget decide. But the new eVENT fabric will do wonders for keeping things dry. My Dryloft bag never gets wet.”

“It does take awhile to get your gear to low weights. Change what you can as you can. Think about the items that don't get used when you go, over and over. I always carried a pack of cards and never used them. So, I stopped carrying them.
8 Pounds of food for a week's trip is the perfect weight. You should have a pound to a pound and a half of food per day, so you're doing good there.”

“I am gonna pack as light as possible this weekend, can't wait to weigh my pack. yeah...

this will be the lightest yet. (yeah right, that's what I say every time)”

“Gem, blow up dolls are really light..... And they flod up to a very small package, or so I have been told.”

“I started with a 45 lb. pack for a weekend trip (warm weather, includes water and food), and now I'm around 23 lbs. Just took a lot of planning, saving, and time. After every trip I looked at everything I took and noted whether I really used each item. Also looked to see if I could make/buy something which would replace 2 or more items I currently did use. Good example is I now use a small knife that has small pliers on one end. That replaced a knife and separate pot grabber.

Just wanted to add that it took me about 3 years to go from 45 to 23 lbs. I lost 10 lbs. just by replacing my tent, sleeping bag, and big stove. I now use a Tarptent (www.tarptent.com), the lightest down bag I can afford, and a Pepsi stove I made myself.
last edited: 4/05/05 8:52:28 AM”

“Oread,
Like you, I don't have a lot of money to spend on this stuff, and as such, I don't have a super lightweight pack either. At the same time, a few things jump off the page at me.

First, you're counting water in your pack weight, which is 4 pounds for 2 Quarts.

Second, the jeans have got to go man. I like them too, but heavy clothes add up really fast. I love the feel of cotton as well, so I resisted, especially since I don't like a lot of synthetics. But I ordered TheBackPacker.com t-shirt for $18 and it's fantastic. Good when it's hot or cold. And that's not a lot of money. The other thing I'm glad I got is a pair of the zipper shorts/pants. $40 at REI on sale. That's not a lot more than a pair of jeans, and you'll be much more happy with them.

The sleeping bag seems a bit heavy, but whatever you need. And the second flashlight is probably redundant. And like others have said, if you're going solo, it's easier to cut back to the essentials, like one pot, a one person tent, etc.

Sounds like you know how to have fun in the wild though. I wouldn't worry about making it a race to see how light you can make it. If you're comfortable carrying it, and you're having fun, then don't worry about it.”

“Oread are you female? Not that it matters.”

“Oread Get to know different materials then hit the 2nd hand stores. My current Columbia Polertic jacket came from there new for $10 in Medford. Get Catologs and watch the close outs. Most importantly plan a head, know what you need and want, then hit the after season sales. Buy now for next winters trips. Buy for the long haul, my Whisperlite is 20 yrs old. And don't get into needing the "look or the name" . North Face is good but REI is cheaper and there are others still cheaper. Don't sacrifice your life for lite or cheap. I've been in SAR most of my life, hyprothermia can get you in temps of the 50s, water and cotton are the big factors.”

“Throw out the snake bit kit.
Those things do far more harm than good. Pack bynadryl (sp?) instead and watch carefully where you step.

Now the bee sting kits actually work but a compress of cool mud will act as a drawing agent for most bites and stings. Rinse the affected area throughly afterwards.

Or if you must carry them only bring one. They are same dang thing anyway.
last edited: 4/05/05 11:11:54 AM”

“I'd lose one of the sweatshirts or wool/cotton pullovers. no jeans. no binocs. a 4lb sleeping bag is pretty heavy. you could trade your thermarest for a lighter foam pad. no kettle. no frypan. do you really need a plate, bowl, and cup? no flashlight if you have a headlamp. and you could pack lighter food too. and also, do you really need a bee sting kit, a snake bit kit, and a first aid kit? i think you're main problem is in your clothing and your cooking sets. besides that your gear isn't much different from mine. the difference is that I hike w/ my wife and can seperate the weight accordingly. find a good hiking partner and do the same. also, when it comes to your medical kit, only take what you can use during your trip. no need to take a 30 day supply of vitamins for example. I also do not carry any clothing that cannot all be worn at 1 time. that means no shorts and pants. only convertable pants. to knock off an easy 3 lbs get a 1 lb sleeping bag.”

“A couple brief comments that others may have missed....

Substitute a monocular (REI, 40 bucks) for the binocs - it weighs 3 oz.

For a pillow, Thermrest has a nice soft pillowcase that weighs 1 oz. Just put your spare clothes or jacket inside - very comfy.

For sandals, my Tevas weigh about a pound each, but my cheapo Kmart imitations weigh about a pound total (I think).

Not sure what kind of knife you have. My Swiss Army knife (with case!) is 4 oz. When I want to go lighter, I take my Leatherman Micra, which is only 2 oz.

That's about all I can add right now....”

“Here's a few random thoughts, all with fair weather (30 degrees and up) in mind.

I also carry two lights, but my backup is a tiny Photon LED light. Its about the size of a quarter, but surprisingly bright. That could save you weight and bulk.

You can get a lighter sleeping bag like the Kelty Lightyear 25 for around 100-125.

How much shelter from the elements do you seek? I love my Hennessey Hammock for 3 season camping. For colder weather, I use a tarp and add a mesh canopy if bugs or critters are a concern.

Big Agnes and InsulMat both make comfortable light sleeping pads for not much. They aren't self-inflating, but they're very nice.

I used to carry a skillet and a pot. Now, I usually take just a light one-quart pot by Primus. A Pepsi-can stove is great if you move to dehydrated foods.

I tried using clothes as a pillow, but didn't like it. I can't think of the name of what I now use, but its a small pool toy kids put on their arms to float.”

“Yeah the swim wing pillows are great! That's what I use too. Much nicer than lumpy clothes.

I'll never understand why you guys don't count your water in total pack weight. You have to carry it,unless you wanna drink from puddles all day; it goes in your pack. It should count!”

“lol, because of the competitive nature of man, Sass. When getting your pack weight down became a contest, water and food had to be eliminated to put all the contestants on an even footing.”

“I count it in total pack weight. The idea is your base weight for any given season is always the same, then you add your food, fuel and water depending on the length and conditions of a particular hike

Base weight = everything - water - fuel - food

Total weight = everthing”

“But your base weight changes by season too. I count it all in my 25-30 pound spring-fall pack weight. All my food, 3 liters of water and everything else, including beer.”

“Ultralighter 1: Hey, my pack weight is 13lbs2oz, what's yours?
Ultralighter 2: 14lbs6oz...how'd you get so light?
UL1: I'm so great at it, that's why.
UL2: (looks over UL1's pack) Hey, wait, you've only got a quart of water here! I carry two! That means I got you beat by (quickly does the math) 12 ounces!
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
UL1: No you don't.
UL2: Yes I do.
ad ridiculosum...”

“That's why I said "your base weight for any given season". Base weight for summer is different than cold weather, which is different than true winter (snow) camping.”

“HH hammock 28 oz
down quilt 20 oz
under quilt 24 oz
pack 34 oz

86 oz - 5.4 lbs, solo, good to 30 degrees

almost everything else is dependant on the hike....

still working on the pair lists...
tent 3 person 4 lbs
2 insulated air mats 20 oz ?
two mated down bags ( near future ) 30 oz ?
packs 2 lbs 2 oz.

about 13 pounds base split 2 ways... not too bad”