new idea: NEMO tents!

“Has Violin given glup the link to the super secret site yet?”

“wow, some rough stuff flying by, i though this was a conversation about gear. Anyway, sakko, show me some innovation instead of dismissing something you don't know anything about...

solo hiker: if you are serious about a review you should just call them up... dont just yap about it.”

“Glup...where do you get 3.25 lbs for a two man tent? All I could find on the site was 5.25 for the tent and .4 for the pump.
The Burrito is a ONE man tent and weighs in at 3.75 lbs plus the .4 for the pump.
Heh...you can get a bunch of one man tents for 3 lbs or less!!
And as for tarp users? Well, it is simple-they use trekking poles anyways so might as well use them to hold up your shelter.
Oh yeah, and if for some VERY remote reason my one pole breaks on my tent, I can use my trekking poles (which I always use) to support my tent.
I'd be way more freaked about popping those Nemo's on a branch in camp, or a sharp rock, or a campfire spark...or a bored 7 year old poking the tent.....
There is little reason to spend more $$ on gear than you have to - the best gear is gear not bought at retail (which I rarely do! That $95 tent was not orginally $95...hehheh!!)
Keep telling yourself how grand your tent is ;-) I'll believe it when I see multiple Nemo's on the trail....
Light Is Right, and it is the future ;-)”

“sarbar, look at hypno's page for the 3.25 lbs one...

Light is only right if it comes in a balanced package. Everything has its place.”

“This is a troll.
He/she is being just a bit too aggressive to people he's not supposed to know.
LOL”

“Ok, but the Hypno has no vestibule and no internal storage. And one door.
Lol....I have 2 doors, 2 vestibules, a window and ample space for less than the Hypno and pump combined ;-)
Stovie..it is soooo obvious, but I am hopped up on pain killers right now and just looovin' it ;-)”

“i know SS, that's why my comments were made in general about NEMO.
crappy gear hustler trolls are only a half step above flaming fuego trolls in my book :)”

“I know sarbar & sacco, me too. It's just so atractive to mess with them. It's like the dark force that sucks ya in.
LOL
last edited: 5/11/05 4:16:11 PM”

“Man, pain killers are such a sweet thing after work ;-) They make the afternoon float by..lol! Hey trolls, where are you? Sar is feeling good!”

“Why do they call it a Burrito? It doesn't look tasty. Maybe if they melted some cheese on top or something! :)”

“take it for what it is, but this forum is filled with people who are fussing over 1-2 lb on a piece of gear because 'light is right' or whatever, what about loosing those 2 or more extra pounds you carry under your skin... maybe you do need a 10 lb sleeping bag to help you loose those othe ones...

you know who you are...”

“I know who I am ... and I also know what a burrito is. That thing is no burrito!”

“true, its more like an ice cream cone...”

“Lol...I lost 30 lbs of flab, and 20 lbs of pack weight...hmmm...that makes a 50 lb savings...woo-hoo! Man-O-Man, I love hiking in an upright postion these days instead of all stooooooped over like all the heavy packers :-D”

“glub, EVERY 1 or 2 pounds counts, no matter what piece of gear it is. Can you give me a good reason why I should use the Nemo @ 5 pounds, when my current tarptent (which is a real tent, not a tarp http://www.tarptent.com) only weighs 1.75 pounds?”

“there are many good reasons to choose some tents over others. The Nemo 5lbs tent is a pretty big and solid structure, it has a lot of features tarptents dont have. In the end its up to each person to decide what fits their needs best. I myself am not going for the Nemo 5lbs tent. I'll takethe 3 lbs tent. 120+" x 36" of floor space fits me (a cozy companion) and a ton of my gear.

Reasons why I go with the nemo over the tarptent: it goes up quicker and easier, has much better and easier to control ventilation, breathable materials, etc. And I would trust it much more in a rain storm.

Does the 1.75lbs include the trekking poles? I am not saying its not light, but you have to count every ounce of gear that is needed for the tent to be useful.
last edited: 5/12/05 4:22:17 PM”

“glub is so funny.”

“funny is not so bad...”

“Man, and a good troll too..lol!

Here's a good question..what happens when a tent stake poked thru the inflated air chamber?

Oh now that would be hilarious to watch!”

“glub is a funny word, not glup the troll.

glub, just the sound of it makes me smile, like thinking of little fish.”

“Glub, glub, glub said the little fishy as the large Nemo chased it.........”

“"Reasons why I go with the nemo over the tarptent: it goes up quicker and easier..."

Wrong, it takes me 3 minutes to set up my tarptent, and that includes the time to pull it out of my pack, stake it out and get inside. The "15-second" set-up time for the Burrito doesn't include all the other steps that are required to set up a tent. And you need to carry an extra pump to get that 15-second time, too.

..."has much better and easier to control ventilation..."

Wrong. The tarptent has nothing but mesh on both ends and all along the bottom of both sides, WAY more than the Nemo. And all of the mesh is still usable during a rain storm. Your tent requires you to close the side door if its raining because it doesn't have a rain fly. Not to mention that just getting into it when its raining would let in a bunch of rain because of the angled door.

"And I would trust it much more in a rain storm."

The tarptent has been tested in harsh conditions by many, many, many people in real-world use including AT thru-hikers. Can't get any more trust in the tarptent than that.

"Does the 1.75lbs include the trekking poles?"

Nope, you got me there. I forgot about the trekking pole. If I do use a trekking pole in place of the front pole, my tent is another 2 ounces lighter since I can leave that pole at home. Hmmm, that would make my tent now only 1.6 lbs! That would be less than half the weight of yours.

"I am not saying its not light, but you have to count every ounce of gear that is needed for the tent to be useful."

Kind of like that EXTRA pump you need? I like how you didn't care about 1 or 2 pounds before, but now you are worried about "every ounce" now.

You can't sit up in the Burrito, I can sit up. The tarptent is way cheaper. The tarptent has a very large vestibule, too. My Squall can hold 2 people plus gear on the inside and in the vestibule, yours only fits one person with no gear inside.

You need to research the competition before claiming your tent is better.”

“I think this argument has gone off on the wrong track. You are comparing a TarpTent to something intended for a different set of conditions. Although you say the the TarpTent has proven itself in all kinds of conditions, in all sorts of locales, and by all kinds of people, in my opinion I think this is stretch of the truth. The TarpTent is great little tent, if you consider a tarp with open mesh ends a tent. But I don't think Henry Shires himself would consider using one of his designs in a place where the weather gets seriously nasty. An all day beating rain is one thing but an all day beating rain with the wind driving that same rain horizontally is taking conditions to another level. Now throw in some low temperatures and you have the potential for trouble. Finally put yourself in a very remote location with no chance of anyone bailing you out if all your gear gets soaked and you have the makings of a disaster.

Your tent is your last line of defense. When your clothes are wet, when your sleeping bag is soaked, when there is no chance of building a fire and drying out, your tent should be the place of retreat. At least you can get out the wind and try to conserve body heat. You can't really do that with a TarpTent.

If we really want to compare the NEMO tents to something in the same vein it should be with the Bibler, MSR, Mountain Hardwear, etc mountaineering tents. I think the Burrito tent should be compared with something like the old Moss Hooped Outland or some of the bivies by OR or Bibler.

I've never seen the TarpTent or the Nemo equipment up close. I'm hoping to see both of them this summer either in the field or at one of our local outfitters. It will be interesting to see where tent design is going.
last edited: 5/13/05 8:57:36 AM”

“LOL
..and you guys are getting all serious over a troll post.”

“Trouble is I can't figure out who is trolling who!”

“solitary hiker - all 3-season tents are comparable to each other and should be able to stand up to the conditions you describe. I'm comparing the tarptents, 3-season tents, with the Burrito and other Nemo 3-season tents. I'm not making comparisons to winter/mountaineering tents which are in a class by themselves. You inferred that the Nemo tents were mountaineering tents, and only one of them is. The Burrito and several others are not.

If you want to compare same sized tents, then look at the Nemo Sako - which is twice the price and four times heavier than my tarptent Squall. Still an easy winner there.

The tarptent beats out the bivies that you wanted to compare to, too. All have similar weights, but the tarptents are always much bigger and allow you to sit up - you don't want to lie on your back all day in the same position if you are riding out an all-day storm. You can't move much or sit up in most bivies.

If you are worried about all that ventilation that the tarptent has, you have the option of closing the side vents using an extra stake on each side (stake loop provided for that purpose), and by adjusting the front stakes. You can also close down the front and rear by adjusting the angle of the front and rear poles.

As for being proven, the tarptents have been used by many, many thru-hikers on the AT, and by thru-hikers on the PCT and CDT. That would mean it has been used in all types of conditions in all sorts of locales - from desert to mountain. Info from tarptent.com, and from journals I have read on trailjournals.com.

StoveStomper - yes, he's a product placement troll, I'm just making sure that when someone searches the Internet for "Nemo tents" and they come upon this thread that they get the whole picture. Its been said since the 2nd post - there are better solutions.
last edited: 5/13/05 9:38:38 AM”

“Well whether or not the TarpTent Squall is a true three season tent is a matter open for debate. I say it's not. IMO nothing with open ends is a three season shelter. And the extended "beak" on the end of the Squall doesn't count as a door or vestibule. It's at best, an awning that attempts keeping some of a blowing rain out. Now this is my opinion only. Like I said, I've never seen one up close. But I don't have to see a real tent with doors and/vestibules to know that it's going to keep the weather out.

You say that the TarpTents have been tested in a bunch of locations including the PCT, AT, and CDT. Have you ever heard or seen of one being used in say St. Elias National Park,AK in October? Maybe in Scotland in the summer? Or say, up where I hike in the Balsams of NC in mid-November? You say the Squall is a three season tent so it should be able to handle anything that comes at it from roughly March 20th to December 21st.
Don't BS yourself, it won't handle everything. And if it would handle everything then why aren't the adventure racers jumping all themselves to use this equipment that weights so little?

Now having said all this I would love to own a Squall. I think it has a great place in a lot of the camping I do. I try planning trips around good weather. It's natural to want to hike, cook, fish, etc. with the sun shining and the winds calm. But I also know there is a place for heavier, and specialized technical gear. That's where I think you guys are off track with your criticism.
last edited: 5/13/05 10:56:48 AM”

“The side vents are identical in form to many commercial tents, like the Eureka Zeus Exo line - long strip of mesh with a flap of nylon attached above it, which you can hold open or closed with a stake however you need it to be.

The front is no different than any commercial tent with an open vestibule, staked close to the ground. Again I offer the Exo as an example. The 3 years I used my Exo before I got my tarptent, I never once needed to close the inner door due to driving rain. If I felt a little mist getting past the vestibule, closing the screen door was all that was needed. Functionally that is the same as the tarptent. Just close the screen door if you start getting a mist from blowing rain.

The rear is the same. And like I mentioned before, you can "batten down the hatches" by adjusting the angles of the poles. The pictures you see on the tarptent web site have the poles in their normal (upright) positions.”

“You still haven't answered my questions?
St Elias and the others?
March 20th to December 21st?
Who are the adventure racers using TarpTents?

Face it tnt, the TarpTents are great 1-1/2 season "tents". No more, no less. I'm not knocking them but I wouldn't count on one to save my tail in a bad situation. That's what a couple of extra pounds and a couple of hundred extra bucks will do for you in a pinch.”

“Locations - I already said in previous posts that the information is available from tarptent.com (on various pages, like the testimonials) and from personal journals on trailjournals.com.

Dates - its a 3-season tent like all the other 3-season tents out there. I proved that with my last post (remember, same construction as other tents). So, yes its fine from March through December. Like any 3-season tent.

So an adventure racer must use a tent to allow it to be 3-season, or even be labeled as a real tent? I guess that disqualifies my Eureka since I've never read about that tent being used by one.”

“Locations - I already said in previous posts that the information is available from tarptent.com (on various pages, like the testimonials) and from personal journals on trailjournals.com.

And like I said. I haven't seen or heard of anyone doing remote "way off the radar" trekking using these so-called tents. Half the places you mention are probably accessable to cell phone calls. The AT has trail shelters every ten miles or so for most of it. We're talking about two different things here and the problem is you don't know what I'm getting at. But what-the-hell, enjoy the Squall. I know I will if I get one. BUT, I'll use mine on bluebird weekends and keep myself reasonably comfortable during spring and summer afternoon thundershowers. You take yours to Alaska in November and get back to me after you learn to type with stubs.
last edited: 5/13/05 1:11:53 PM”

“Obviously Alaska in November requires an expedition-class (i.e. winter) tent, and we have both covered very clearly in previous posts that tarptents are 3-season tents. You keep proving my points with your own posts, please keep doing so.”

“bumping for solitary, since he claimed in another thread that I never answered him...answer is above Mr. solitary.

And to add, many people on this thread use tarptents as a "capable 3-season tent". See this thread for examples: http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/25916,-1,1.php

Amazing that you claim to want a tarptent, yet work so hard to deny that it is usable.”

“So after three days of waiting on you to answer I gave up. And you call this a response?

Obviously Alaska in November requires an expedition-class (i.e. winter) tent, and we have both covered very clearly in previous posts that tarptents are 3-season tents. You keep proving my points with your own posts, please keep doing so.

Why an expedition quality tent in November?Hell I'm not talking about mountain climbing in Alaska. Lets just take a 10 day hike in the park at the lowest elevations in any month between March 20th and December 21st. Go in August with your TarpTent! I'll be waiting to read your trip report on that one. I can see the headlines now.

"Maryland Clown Dies of Hypothermia After Wimpy "Tent" Shreds in Two Day Gale."”

“You asked on a Friday, I answered on Monday. Not unreasonable. This isn't a chat room.

Amazing that you claim to want a tarptent, yet work so hard to deny that it is usable.”

“Boys will be boys, I guess.”

“"Why an expedition quality tent in November?"

Take a look at snowfall amounts and temps around Alaska, starting in November: http://www.alaska.com/about/weather/story/4481284p-4775752c.html

Gee, d'ya think I should use a winter tent, in winter?”

“November is in the winter? On what planet? Certainly you mean somewhere else besides here on good ole Earth? The last time I checked winter begins in the Northern Hemisphere on or about December 21st. And you did say the TarpTent was a three season tent didn't you?

Hmmm ... maybe you meant to say the Squall was a Florida, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi, Brownsville TX three season tent? That must be what you meant?

I on the other hand said I wanted a TarpTent when I was on a bluebird hike. I think I want mine for those times when the sky is blue and the wind is calm and the little birds are out singing. In other words when I know my $250 won't be shredded in a good blow. For about one and a half seasons. After that, give me a real tent. :)”

“Winter conditions are the key, not the date on the calendar. The dates are created by humans. The conditions in the areas you are camping dictate what equipment you need. You can have a 70 degree day in January. Are you going to sue Mother Nature because our calendar says its "winter"?

I used my tarptent this past January - because there were no winter conditions where I was camping (mountains of MD). If they were calling for snow I would have taken something else. Amazing - I used a tarptent in winter, in the mountains, and I didn't die of hypothermia. Put me on Ripley's Believe it or Not.

If you want to lug around a 5 pound tent because you are afraid of a little wind and rain, that's your loss. I'll stick with my tarptent unless there are winter conditions outside.”

“Not to add to the Fuego here, just to state a fact...I have been snowed on in the lower elevations in Alaska on the first day of JUNE. It is an accomplishment to reach Wonder Lake in Denali with a BULL DOZER by Mid MAY.

Weather returns to winter conditions in September, (3 Months of summer, NO Fall, 9 months of Winter).”

“Winter conditions are the key, not the date on the calendar. The dates are created by humans. The conditions in the areas you are camping dictate what equipment you need. You can have a 70 degree day in January. Are you going to sue Mother Nature because our calendar says its "winter"?

Does anyone else here see the irony of this statement?

ST
That's exactly why the Squall or any other TarTent is not a three season tent. Hey this TNT character made the claim I didn't. Other tent manufacturers and advocates give tents a season designation for a reason. That reason is they know that the people who use their products will use them all over the world in all kinds of conditions. TarpTent owners give their "tents" a three season designation to make themselves feel better about their investment.
last edited: 5/25/05 4:44:28 PM”

“What part of winter conditions do you not understand? Tent makers (all brands, not just tarptent) designate their tents as 3-season to indicate the weather conditions they will take, not the date on the calendar.

Going by your assertion, then I should not be able to use any 3-season tent in January while hiking through Florida? Its winter time. Calendar says so. So I must use a winter tent. Yeah, right.

You see, your argument is flawed. You have backed yourself into a corner and now want to argue that just because the calendar says its Fall, in November, in Alaska, that I can't use my tarptent - but its somehow OK to use other brands of 3-season tents. You are wrong. You will encounter winter conditions in November (and according to SuperTroll in September when its still SUMMER) and therefore you must use a winter-class tent.

3-season = non-winter conditions
3-season not = winter time”

“Flawed logic you say? A corner? I love corners.

Well going by my flawed logic I'm saying I wouldn't use a Henry Shire's TarpTent at any time of the year unless;
1) Weather conditions were good (sunny to partly cloudy) with low to moderate (less than 20 mph steady) wind, and little or no chance of a soaking rain.
2) I had an accurate weather forecast of aforementioned weather for the whole duration of my trip. This second condition would dictate a maximum trip length in the 3 to 4 day range because of where I live.
3) I had an umbrella to open inside my TarpTent which was the solution Nigal used once when it was blowing rain into his!

I'm also asserting that I would use most tents which the manufacturer had designated as "three season" on dates ranging from March 20th to Dec 21st, in the Northern Hemisphere, in weather conditions that a backpacker could be caught in. Obviously I'm not going to Greenland or the Arctic or into conditions ouside the statistical norm, but I would take a three season tent to Alaska. One thing I can say for sure is that I can secure a tent carrying a manufacturer's three season designation against foul weather a lot faster and better than you could with your TarpTent. And when I say three season I mean a tent with a fabric (not mesh) entrance door and side walls. It could have some mesh vent panels in either the top or side but as a percentage not more than my MH Muir Trail.

I've been over to the TarpTent site many times to look at various models that Mr. Shires is selling. To this day I have never found a seasonal rating on any of his "tents". All of the other tent manufacturers will give their tents designations. Why won't Henry? Could it be Henry doesn't want to get himself caught up in a courtroom battle or wrongful dead lawsuit caused by the legal definitions of "three season" and "three season tent?" And as far as definitions go your definition of the words "not-winter" is very subjective. You may be right as far as the way manufacturers define the words, but IMO, my definition would stand up in a court of law.

Also it seems to me that your method to reduce or stop a blowing rain from coming in through the front of a TarpTent's reduces the tent's stability. Lowering the beak down by changing the angle of the front pole or hooped pole would mean you have to shorten the guylines on the front of the tent and stake them at sharper angles. From the pictures of the all the Shire tents this would seem to be a bad idea as long, low angle guylines are what keeps the tent taunt and strong. Even at the TarpTent site they make no mention of your method. Let me quote Henry -

Q: How should I pitch my Tarptent in a storm?
A: Tarptents should be pitched foot-first into the wind and rain. Tarptents have excellent rear protection and can be operated even without the front beak if the rain is coming from the rear or directly overhead. In side-driven rain, restake the front corner(s) as needed to lower the sidewall(s) and prevent side spray. There are also side pullouts halfway along each long side to help with side wind and rain. Put just enough tension on the sidewall to prevent it from caving in but avoid pulling the ridgeline down. In front-driven rain, deploy the front beak and move a foot or so back from the netting door. If possible, take advantage of natural windbreaks to limit front-driven rain.

Finally, I didn't say you couldn't use your TartTent in Alaska. You can do anything you want. All I said was I wouldn't use one there at any time.”

“From Henry's web site: "...that shed everything from flying bugs to summer snow...shed wind and rain with aplomb...". Wow, right there on the About page.

I love how you twist words. Here's your assertion about using a tarptent in Alaska, and my immediate reply:

"You take yours to Alaska in November and get back to me after you learn to type with stubs." - SH 5/13/05

"Obviously Alaska in November requires an expedition-class (i.e. winter) tent, and we have both covered very clearly in previous posts that tarptents are 3-season tents." - me 5/16/05

I never said I would use my tarptent in Alaska in November - I immediately pointed out that there are winter conditions in Alaska in November and I would need a winter tent. You go ahead and use your "brand-name" 3-season tent in Alaska in November (to quote you: "...I would take a three season tent to Alaska.") and get back to me with the stubs on your fingers.

I fear for your safety.
last edited: 5/27/05 8:27:43 AM”

“From Henry's web site: "...that shed everything from flying bugs to summer snow...shed wind and rain with aplomb...". Wow, right there on the About page.

Sounds like ole Henry is trying to give his tent a four season designation when he says "summer snow" according to your definition.

Now go find the quote with the words "three season" or "three season tent" on Henry's site.

Man I have wasted way too much time on discussing these flimsy summer bluebird tarps you love so much. This thread was supposed to be about NEMO tents, etc. If you want to talk about REAL tents by various manufacturers then let's do it. Otherwise move along.

Finally my MH Muir Trail has a 3/4 season rating so it wouldn't have a problem in Alaska at lower elevations in November. Therefore don't worry your little head about me cause I'm sure not worried about you and the rest of the knuckleheads.”

“The Muir Trail is 3-season, too. Did you check out the weather stats on the page I posted recently? It snows heavily all over Alaska starting in November. Not too bright.”

“The Muir Trail is a 3/4 season convertable. I can zip out an overhead fabric panel to reveal a mesh section. Even with this panel removed the Muir Trail (at three season designation) has the goods to secure the tent against foul weather including snow. They are:
1) Four poles erected in a cross fashion for strength during snow loading and severe wind shear.
2) A fly with vestible that can be buttoned down against the wind and rain. My stuff ain't going to get wet period because the fly goes to ground level.
3) Double sown seams.
4) Hot taped seams.
5) Ventilation zippers for condensate control.
6) It's made from materials with enough weight (heavy is GOOD!) to not shred the first time the wind blows a nor'easter for two days.

Henry on the other hand talks about moving away from the mesh front door to stay out of the way of water blowing inside the tent. Maybe he'll put some pix on his site showing the umbrella technique for staying dry as you sit up all night trying to mop the floor of his "tent". Or maybe he'll start giving away dry bags or waterproof bivies to use inside his TarpTent. He could hawk them as ultralight BPing insurance policies!!!

Yeah ......two years ago when we were discussing the TarpTents I made the statement that I wouldn't buy one unless it had a bathtub floor sew into it. Lo and behold Henry puts one in. Now I'm saying that Henry ought to study the BetaMids and MegaMids to learn about total enclosure against the weather. I guess when he takes my advise on the idea of how to keep the inside of a tent dry then he can start talking about a season rating. But until he does that ...... they'll always be nothing more than dry weather shade awnings.
last edited: 5/27/05 12:16:27 PM”

“Excuse me, but haven't you been screaming about the manufacturer's listed ratings? Like "3-season". And how no 3-season tent could possibly stand up to winter conditions. Which would include "snow loading and severe wind shear." (quoting you)

Yet your tent - rated as 3-season - can handle "snow loading and severe wind shear". By rating it 3-season, it isn't designed to handle that and you will die from hypothermia after your fingers fall off from frostbite.

That's your own logic from previous posts.


You flip-flop worse than a flag in the wind.”