The Power of Prayer

“hey moonglo, what happened to ya? you seem to have really changed over the last couple days.”

“there is no tangible good and evil. they are only concepts. every one of us is a self-interested creature. if someone is short-sighted in their self-interest, going about humping everything in sight and snorting lines of cocaine with no regard for anything or anyone, then we say they are selfish and therefore choosing sin and evil. but if a person goes about saving puppies and volunteering at homeless shelters, and is responsible and raises their kids well, they are still doing it all for self-interested reasons: to feel good about themselves, or to alleviate guilt they would feel if they didnt "measure up". the difference is, they are far-sighted in their self-interestedness, and we call them good. we are all the same at our core. to say that we deserve hell for being as we were made is ludicrous”

“So by this "Iz all good" is it safe to say that, say, the guys who stole all your backpacking gear were not doing evil or bad to you? They were just doing what is natural?”

“what about coke snorting puppy humpers that save homeless kids in their free time?”

“i dont mean KNOW in that sense, but only in the sense that i KNOW my mother exists, this house exists, this computer exists, etc.

KNOW what i mean?”

“is it safe to say that, say, the guys who stole all your backpacking gear were not doing evil or bad to you? They were just doing what is natural?

they were just doing what comes natural to redneck backwoods peckerheads. and, as a self-interested creature, it is only natural for me to want to want to beat the sht out of them with a baseball bat and a rusty nail
last edited: 8/24/06 11:06:02 AM”

“sacco, it's magic

c!b!, you are only speaking to the apparent 'good' in people. you are not speaking to the bad in people which is in everybody, which god abhors

to say we are as we are made is ludicrous. god gave us free will (within certain parameters, or capabilities), so we choose to be good (obey god), or to be bad (disobey god)

10 'good' acts don't cancel out 1 'bad' act. sin against god is (in worldly thinking) akin to murder. even in our world we don't typically let murderers go free after doing community service, which seems to be what you are suggesting. if we could only 'right' the 'wrongs' by doing more 'right' than 'wrong' then we should be considered 'good' by god and be allowed to be with him in heaven. it's a strange bit of logic which isn't often found in the real world

you sound like the neighbors who say 'johnny the mass murderer was such a good boy. he was always quiet, and he made sure to wave when he was out getting the paper.'”

“you never know, you know?”

“the worst thing god could have done was to create us so that we automatically obeyed him and loved him

he loved us too much to do that

think about it”

“Personally, I don’t buy the whole moral relativity thing. It sounds like too much of a cop out. I personally believe we are born with an equal capacity to do good as we are to do evil. I also believe we are born with knowing what is good and what is evil. How else can we explain how so many different cultures that were isolated and separate from the others seem to have very similar moral codes that are only separated by time in most cases? I believe there is a natural universal law instilled in each of us.”

“you are only speaking to the apparent 'good' in people

like i said, there is no such thing as "good" its only a concept

10 'good' acts don't cancel out 1 'bad' act.

im not saying that. im sorry if you thought i was.


you sound like the neighbors who say 'johnny the mass murderer was such a good boy. he was always quiet, and he made sure to wave when he was out getting the paper.'”

people "go bad" for many, many reasons. not because they are evil. but i am in no way suggesting that people not be held accountable. people are punished in the hopes that they learn that they cannot get away with anti-social behavior, or else we lock em up and throw away the key or execute them if they are too far gone. your idea of punishment seems more like revenge to me.
last edited: 8/24/06 11:16:43 AM”

“I was surprised by that last bit of the SP episode. Kind of shocked me. IMHO you really couldn't argue with the kids statement regarding his religion. Kind of makes one feel like an ass for criticizing someone elses beliefs, no?”

“...cause ya know what? I've learned something here today...”

“How else can we explain how so many different cultures that were isolated and separate from the others seem to have very similar moral codes that are only separated by time in most cases?

im not an anthropologist. i cant answer that question. why do animals of any species act in a uniform manner, no matter where and when they are? why do fish school together in the atlantic in similar fashion to fish in the pacific? genetics and instincts. man is a primate, who, by a combination of innumerable factors, has come to have a much more complex social hierarchy than any other species on the planet. only 3 percent of our genes separate us from chimps, yet we're much more advanced. read "the third chimpanzee" by jared diamond. it is very enlightening.”

“Genetics and instincts don’t have that much to do with social morals and morays. There is a social commonality that has been in us from birth.”

“like that ask.com commercial says, without tools, we'd be "animals in pants"”

“Genetics and instincts don’t have that much to do with social morals and mores

sure they do. another good read that might explain this is "dark nature". we learn social mores early on because by doing the things that are approved of by society as a whole, we are praised and therefore conditioned to be "moral". those who fail to learn are punished by society, or go on to become wide receivers in the nfl. our self-interest is used to make us "good". that is why we praise a child when she does "good" and punish when she does "bad", not because she knows the diff between good and bad, but because she knows what behaviors will get her rewarded or punished”

“those of you, like s-rge and nigal, who believe in a spirit world believe in a tangible good and evil and knowledge of such. you call a person like me a "relativist" like its a bad word, like you toss about "libbie" and "commie" like theyre bad words. i believe in cause and effect. EVERYTHING happens for a reason. to me, saying that someone or something or some act is EVIL is just oversimplification. thats why i dont buy quantum mechanics, or at least the notion that particles behave randomly. i believe we havent found the reasoning behind the seeming randomness. but i could be wrong about that. the sht blows my mind because everything about it is counterintuitive

i hope wandy doesnt think i painted quantum physics with too broad a brush. id hate for his head to explode again
last edited: 8/24/06 11:47:00 AM”

“Reception in your area sucks? Try the prayer antenna: http://www.xraylab.org/GodEar/prayer.htm”

“re: revenge

what you are calling revenge sounds to me like answered prayer”

“i think most moral codes, if not all, make evolutionary sense.

And the Bonobo shares over 98% Genetic identity with us, I believe. They, along with all chimps, should be homo troglodyte, not pan”

“Incest is bad - you'll destroy your linneage.”

“doing your neighbors wife, stealing from him, killing him is bad - you might need him in a survival situation.”

“bmag i have no idea WTF you are saying”

“No person is an island*







Please forgive what may be an UberPC alteration to that quote.”

“That might make two of us. But i can never be sure.”

“moral codes are about whats doing best to insure the survival of you and your offspring. About whats best to ensure the continuation of your genes.


I don't care if you're a Bible Thumper or an Atheist. You should read Dawkins "The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker. I mean, unless you're an ID bible thumper.”

“i was refereing to this post BTW


And the Bonobo shares over 98% Genetic identity with us, I believe. They, along with all chimps, should be homo troglodyte, not pan”
bearmagnet
1:18:06 PM

not your anti-incest propoganda. i expect such narrowmindedness when it comes to that topic”

“update: i just wiki'd bonobos

awesome!



Social behavior
Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society, being used as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution and post-conflict reconciliation, and as favors traded by the females in exchange for food. Bonobos are the only non-human apes to have been observed engaging in all of the following sexual activities: face-to-face genital sex (most frequently female-female, then male-female and male-male), tongue kissing, and oral sex.”

“moral codes are about whats doing best to insure the survival of you and your offspring. About whats best to ensure the continuation of your genes.

why?”

“Oh. I mean no species that genetically similar would be in separate Genus categories. Chimps are Genus pan and we are homo. Its the ultimate bias. Plus their species name: "troglodyte". "Cave dwellers"? WTF. Chimps don't hang in caves. It's a purposeful manuver to distance us from something that is so similar it skeered certain Scientists.

And yes, they are horny basturds. Humans with no Commandments or Victorians. ;)

why?”
moonglo
1:39:37 PM
8/24/06

You are your genes, maybe vice-versa. Your genes survive, you survive.”

“Your genes survive, you survive.

you mean like your soul lives on?”

“I have no idea about the soul”

“that is a good case for abortion is murder, if we are our genes

i agree our genetic code lives on (in an altered form), but to say that we live on seems to be stretching it IMO

regardless, i still wonder 'why?' ... why must we live on? is that belief so strong (that we must live on) in you that you would define yourself (your actions) by it by allowing it to dictate your moral code? isn't that taking a pretty big leap of faith?”

“bearmagnet and sacco get it. i believe the main point of "the selfish gene" is that instead of the function of the gene is to be our blueprint, it is actually the other way around. we are the vehicle for our genes to continue on.

and yes, it does make sense from an evolutionary standpoint to say that in certain situations, the species that takes care of its own will survive natural selection. man, stripped of all his technology and know-how and society, is defenseless in the wild. so we have society, a society which is growing increasingly interdependent, and at an accelerating rate”

“that is a good case for abortion is murder, if we are our genes

i hadnt thought of it that way, but that is another strike against the pro-choice crowd. good catch, moonie”

“Not that you wanted it, but Lurker's take on religion...

I have one core belief - that there is something more to life than the daily grind. We are united in some way and called to something greater.

I went on a quest to find it.

I spent most of my college years visiting mosques and synagogues and churches and reading lots of books about faith and religion. Of course, I never missed a Sunday mass, either. I came to the realization that every religion and moral code ultimately rests upon a leap of faith.

Every belief system has a logical hole that a truck can drive through.

You either decide to believe something or you don't. It's a pragmatic decision that works until it doesn't.

And for me it didn't make sense to start following Hinduism or Buddhism or anything else when all of my family was/is Catholic and most of my surrounding community was/is Christian.

Religion is almost genetic for me. My parents, grandparents, great-grandparents followed this tradition. I would have to have a compelling reason to be and do something else. Since I do not believe that such a compelling reason exists - at least currently -, I am Catholic.

That is what I am.

So, once that decision was made, it was easy to place Jesus and heaven and all that into my belief system.

I believe that Jesus is my savior.

But my belief is pragmatic. I have no problem believing that the really nice Hindu family down the street is doing everything that they should do.

And if another religion has a good idea, I try to incorporate it into my Catholicism. Evangelism is a two way street.

I do have some personality tics about religion.

I think that the abandonment of religion is a problem because there is so much political and organizational power in a faith tradition. With the money and manpower that these organizations have, leaving a particular group also means denying the possibility that you might have some means later on of steering that bureacracy onto a useful path.

I also think that if you truly come to the belief that your church/tradition/religion is on the wrong track, as a member of that tradition, you have a responsibility to change it. If you don't do it, who else will? Leaving CAN be the easy way out.

Note I used the word CAN because in this crazy world there are always exceptions.

No truth is absolute. :)”

“that is a good case for abortion is murder, if we are our genes

No, it's not.It might be the other way around. Every sperm has a copy. Every cell has a copy. Your genes may recombinate differently for each child but it is still your whole package of self.

i agree our genetic code lives on (in an altered form), but to say that we live on seems to be stretching it IMO

It's a point of view.

regardless, i still wonder 'why?' ... why must we live on? is that belief so strong (that we must live on) in you that you would define yourself (your actions) by it by allowing it to dictate your moral code? isn't that taking a pretty big leap of faith?”

There is no leap of faith. there is no "thinking" in our sense of the word.

"Why"?

Why don't you put a bullet in your head when you wake in the morning?”

“re: case for abortion

what i meant was if you live on in your genes, and you abort that at any phase of it's "life" you are commiting murder then

what do you mean there is no thinking? how did you come to believe that your genes should live on? didn't you come to that conclusion with thought?

re: why?

i don't put a bullet in my head in the morning for a number of reasons, including i like my life, i respect my family, and god forbids it, among others. none of those reasons are because i think i should live forever

so, again, i ask you why? why must we live on? it is the basis for your reasoning for choosing certain moral decisions, so you must have a belief as to why we must live on. what purpose does that serve? just for the sake of doing it? that doesn't sound like a scientific explanation to me”

“"we learn social mores early on because by doing the things that are approved of by society as a whole, we are praised and therefore conditioned to be "moral"."

I still do not call this instinct or genes. But that's me.”

““those of you, like s-rge and nigal, who believe in a spirit world believe in a tangible good and evil and knowledge of such. you call a person like me a "relativist" like its a bad word, like you toss about "libbie" and "commie" like theyre bad words.”

I never called you a relativist. But thanks for lumping me in and tar and feathering me anyhow.

“i believe in cause and effect. EVERYTHING happens for a reason. to me, saying that someone or something or some act is EVIL is just oversimplification.”

It doesn’t have to be one or the other ya know. Everything that happens to us happens for a reason and many times it’s because of our own actions. What you may see as an oversimplification is a perfect system of justice to me. Throughout the history of man we have been told these things are good and these things are evil; but it’s your choice. There absolutes in the universe IMHO. You may not understand it and you may not buy it and that’s fine.”

“No. Your attempting to place individual worth on genes. You produce a gazillion copies of yourself. Aborting one copy is nothing.

Now, to get beyond "emotional appeal", abortion is evolutionary unsound. Unless, the fetus is "defective". But then, in the same evolutionary sense, allowing a fetus/child to develop/live that will never reproduce again, is evolutionary unsound.

There are two sides to the coin.

And the answer to "Why?" is "Because". You don't shoot yourself because you don't think about it. You fall into water and you hold your breath without thinking about it.

Programmed to survive. Period. let me ask you something: Why do you think there needs to be a reason? Do you have any scientific evidence to suggest we must survive for some greater reason/purpose?”

“ still do not call this instinct or genes

why not? when was the last time a baby did anything for you? no, its all about them WAHHHHHHHHH I WANNA BOTTLE WAAHHHHHHHH CHANGE MY DIAPER WAAAAAHHHHHHHHH PICK ME UP WAAAAAAAHHHHHH BURP ME. why are they like that? cuz they havent learned that there are rewards for being altruistic, and punishments for being anti-social. once they do, then they start behaving accordingly. there is no GOOD or EVIL, only what we define as such.”

“Hike your own hike....”

“ never called you a relativist.

well, if im arguing for a line of thought that you define as relativism, then, in this discussion anyways, im the relativist. thats ok. im not bristling at the term.

But thanks for lumping me in and tar and feathering me anyhow

my intent was not to lump and tar and feather anyone, nige. i was attempting to differentiate the perspectives, to get to the root of why those with a spiritual pov believe differently than those with a material pov. and since you dont like lumping and tarring, i assume youll refrain from lumping libbies and commies and pc-ers on the political threads in the future, hmmmmmmmm?”

“If something is genetics and instinct it's something we are born with right? It's not a matter of learning anything.”

“in other words, unless i believe in the spirit world, youll never convince me that there are ABSOLUTES.

and unless you stop believing in the spirit world, ill never convince you that there arent ABSOLUTES”

“It's not a matter of learning anything.”

sure it is. another good read that might explain this is "dark nature". we learn social mores early on because by doing the things that are approved of by society as a whole, we are praised and therefore conditioned to be "moral". those who fail to learn are punished by society, or go on to become wide receivers in the nfl. our self-interest is used to make us "good". that is why we praise a child when she does "good" and punish when she does "bad", not because she knows the diff between good and bad, but because she knows what behaviors will get her rewarded or punished
last edited: 8/24/06 3:12:22 PM”

“"and since you dont like lumping and tarring, i assume youll refrain from lumping libbies and commies and pc-ers on the political threads in the future, hmmmmmmmm?”

Jumpin' Jesus Crash. Do you want me to submit a visual diagram with every post or something? Let me get this straight, you name me by name and lump me in with Sarge and accuse me of calling you something I never called you in a dirty way. Are we straight so far? And you equate this with my posting on political threads? Please cut and paste my posts where I say something like Crash and so and so are commies, libbies or Un-PC where I held you to someone else's words or actions.

I already told you I wouldn't kid around with ya so you don't bltch and moan.

How big of a whiney pussie are you anyhow?”

“we are born purely self-interested. through conditioning, we become "good" or "bad"”