The Power of Prayer

“btw, crash, if you believe that somebody who presents information is being antagonistic, that says more about you and your unwillingness to consider other points of view than it does about me.”

“birch - mine like the dinnertime routine too. I usually do supper, but not always. If I say, "OK, who wants to do the blessing?" They chime in with "meeeeee!" What inevitable happens is that the one not doing them will chime in at some point. If my daughter is doing them and my son chimes in then she totally freaks, drama queen that she is. No, Reece, I'm doing it!!!! ABout the 4th time it happens she'll yelling at him. It's a fine balance to letting them go and getting a chuckle and not going too far and missing the point.

Little House would be a good one for us to do.”

“"why are you quoting me from 3 months ago?"

because i just now saw it.

"btw, crash, if you believe that somebody who presents information is being antagonistic, that says more about you and your unwillingness to consider other points of view than it does about me."

well, the other discussions ive had on this thread felt amiable, but, in general, very few discussions with you feel amiable. its always a contest with you. you insist on the othe person having their sources cited, using correct debate form, the whole nine yards. before you popped in, we were sharing viewpoints, but then you come in and it seems like its not enough for you to share your point of view, you have to convince everyone to believe the same things you believe. maybe your earlier blow-ups shade the remarks you make now, but, in general, youre just not very friendly. neither am i all the time, neither is anyone else, but youre the worst.
last edited: 7/19/05 7:10:25 AM”

“besides, i dont think christ ever said "well he started it! i begged and i pleaded, but judas, you pushed me over the edge, and and and YOURE FAT! AND STUPID!"”

“crash - I asked pedxing the "source" because I wanted to see what "Christians" believed they could change God's mind. He didn't seem to take offense to that, why would you?

I could waste my time on here explaining how you are the one being antagonistic with your ad hominem and strawman arguments, ... you pretty much do nothing but ... But I still respond to your posts and questions, even though they are presented with the intent to troll. You know as well as I do that you have no intention of being open minded. If there is any tension in our discussions, it comes from that fact. I don't debate with the intent of not making a point. You apparently do and feel comfortable in that. That's fine. If what I do really bothers you that much, all you have to do is put me on ignore. The simple fact that you don't, and have a problem with my posts, shows you are more interested in creating conflict than resolving it.

If you are truly interested in not having conflict on here, put me on ignore. Otherwise, you are the problem, not the solution. Every time you complain about me, which is pretty much daily, you are showing everybody that you have no interest in true debate, but would rather create conflict. The fact that you do this causes you to lose all credibility when deciding who is "the worst" at not "being friendly".

PS - re: your 2nd quote. Are you comparing me to Jesus?
last edited: 7/19/05 7:37:26 AM”

“Crash is going to hell...



























LOL!”

“I do the prayers, my daughter recites them back to me

Ugh, I feel sorry for kids who are indoctrinated by their parents. Particularly in something as ridiculous as the xtian myth. They might never have the chance to exercise their God-given "free will" (an important xtian concept) to its utmost. If Christianity is as great and true as the deluded think it is, then their children will naturally gravitate toward it on their own. Or maybe that's precisely what you don't have faith in.”

“Hey, just because your parents (aunt/uncle) sucked Mutt doesn't mean all others do.”

“Wicked Uncle Earnie??”

“My parents sucked because they didn't force Christianity on me? I consider that one of the greatest gifts they ever gave me! The older I get, the more ridiculous and fictional xtianity appears. I thank God I didn't get sucked into it, or judaism or islam for that matter.

The Devil's greatest trick has been to convince people that xtianity is the one true religion.”

“Damn, guess I'm going to hell with Crash Bang... Haha!”

“Mutt - You referenced the "God-given "free will"" as if God would want us to not teach our children about God.

There is no logic in that. God specifically tells us to spread the Word and to worship as a family.”

“Sarge, xtians have told me that the whole reason there is sin and evil is that God wants free-willed people to choose to love and worship Her. Indoctrinating your kids from birth is hardly an exercise in free will. What value would God place in a bunch of robots who've been programmed from birth to believe/love/worship Her? According to the devout, She wants people who've chosen, not brainwashed robots.

This is where the man-made religion of xtianity interferes with its fundamental God message, IMNSHO.”

“"Are you comparing me to Jesus?"

as a proclaimed christian, one should try to emulate christ.

and no, im not always interested in debate. i come here for pure entertainment. sometimes i prefer to debate, sometimes i prefer to joke around, sometimes i feel the need to call people on their bad attitudes and bullshoot, sometimes i come for information, sometimes to share info, sometimes to vent, whatever. you and i both have been guilty of going too far, like many many ppl on this board. but i do admit that i sometimes find it hard to give you the benefit of the doubt due to the way you come back 10 times harder when somebody gives you a hard time. i think some self-examination is in order for you, sarge. but i will also make the attempt to lay off and not be such a net nanny. have a good day”

“So were Native peoples that taught their children what they believed to be true about river and tree gods guilty of the same brainwashing?”

“dayhiker, that's a decent point - there's a difference between indoctrination and exposing your child to religion. A truly faithful xtian, to be spiritually honest, should expose their children to the beliefs of other religions - and let them decide if xtianity is the One True Religion.”

“now back to the discussion (altho im sure there will be a follow-up last word to my previous post)

i think mutt nailed it on the head.

If Christianity is as great and true as the deluded think it is, then their children will naturally gravitate toward it on their own.

i would also add, if xtianity was as great and true as it is purported to be, why for hundreds of years was it confined to one corner of the globe, and why, after 2 millenia, are billions of people not converted? if god was to send a messiah to save mankind, why were billions of people left out? thats not exactly fair to someone in indonesia or malta or an eskimo in alaska. we didnt come into contact with the native americans until 15 centuries after the birth of christ. are they screwed cuz they didnt get to hear the message? of course not. but xtians believe unless you proclaim fealty to their guy, youre damned. absurd”

“Mutt, you are confusing "free will" with lifestyle.

People have free will, and no amount of "brainwashing" will change that. It's built in. It's non-negotiable.

God's message specifically says to spread the Word. How can that be interfering with "it's fundamental God message"? That is the message.

Matthew 28:19-20

Mark 16:15-16

I think these passages are pretty clear.”

“crash,

God never claimed that billions of people would be converted.

In fact, He said the exact opposite.

Luke 13:24

Matt 19:16-30 (esp. 24)
last edited: 7/19/05 11:26:14 AM”

“So we can say that Mutt will be teaching his kids creationism side by side with evolution? To not do so would be removing free will to believe what they want, yes? And is it also safe to say that Mutt will also teach his kids about christianity in a completely neutral way so his kids can make up thier own minds without any unfair enfluence from his personal views?

Bullshlt and you know it...”

“"God never claimed that billions of people would be converted."

i guess that sucks for them, huh?”

“Sucks for the point you were trying to make too.”

“seriously, how can that be justified?”

“Hey, if you’re going to make a utopian omelet ya gotta break a few billion eggs Crash.”

“Who are you talking to and what is "that"?”

“i just dont buy it. i remain unconvinced.”

“I think that indoctrination versus education is the parents responsibility to make sure it happens in a healthy way. I asked a former minister at my church if we could have classes on different faiths. He said it would be "confusing." I pretty much wrote him off at that point. Our former youth director would take the youth to different places. He hit all the biggies Baptist and Episcopalian. Just kidding there. He took them to a Hindu temple and other places I can't think of now.”

“Crash - So you think everyone deserves to be with God?”

“"Who are you talking to"

you

what is "that"?”

billions will not be saved from hell”

“- So you think everyone deserves to be with God?

from a christian pov, everyone deserves the chance. not everyone will get the chance”

“People have free will, and no amount of "brainwashing" will change that. It's built in. It's non-negotiable.

Okay, perhaps you're right. But never exercising free will is only slightly removed from not having it. Indoctrination from birth is obviously putting an incredibly strong barrier before free will.”

“Mutt - you sure do seem to like to talk religion for some who doesn't believe in it. CB is in the same boat. I get a sense from your(CB's) posts that you're looking for something. You don't quite know what, but a search is there. I also think that your hike was part of a search. Not trying to get in your face here. Most of us are on a search of some kind.”

“as a matter of fact, not only do they deserve the chance, they should get the chance for everyones sake. truly being a christian is about emulating christ.”

“crash - From a Christian pov - Everone deserves hell.”

“dayhiker, i talk about religion because spirituality is very important to me, and much of organized religion fails to live up to what i need in my spiritual quest”

“Truly being a Christian crash is about trusting in Christ and what He did for you on the Christ. Emulating Him is an example of fruit. A bi-product, so to speak. It's not what it's about.”

“"From a Christian pov - Everone deserves hell"

i know thats what christians believe, but i dont buy that, either”

“Thanks for the reply. When I typed that I was afraid I was crossing a line of some sort. Wasn't it Gandhi that said he could be Christian because he never saw one live up to their own rules?”

“mutt - Is the child who is indoctrinated into Christianity not exercising "free will"?

What would be free will mutt?

In your examples, I would think no human interaction would be the only true "free will" from the way you are defining it. I disagree.”

“crash - You don't believe that everyone deserves hell?

From where do you derive that belief?”

“crash - In case you respond, so you don't think I'm ignoring you, I'm stepping away from the computer for awhile.”

“You don't believe that everyone deserves hell?

From where do you derive that belief?”

i dont have to justify that belief. im not of a christian mindset. im starting from a blank slate mindset, a tabula rasa, so to speak. agnostic, i believe the word would be. so, it is up to the christian to prove it to me beyond reasonable doubt. in other words, innocent (of deserving hell) until proven guilty (of deserving hell)”

“if we deserve hell, then we must be evil, and if we are evil, then we must not have been created by god if god is all good. i happened to run across an old creationism myth (no i cant ref it at the moment i dont have the book with me) that claims that (im paraphrasing here) the world was created in the fallout from The Fall. now THAT would make sense: we're evil cuz we're children of the devil and god saves us with his messiah.”

“btw, it was not from one of the lost books, it was an interpretation of genesis. but it never took, for obvious reasons”

“it is up to the christian to prove it to me beyond reasonable doubt. in other words, innocent (of deserving hell) until proven guilty (of deserving hell)

Nobody is responsible for your beliefs but you.

God wants us to come to Him out of our own faith and love for Him.

If you put the responsibility on others, nobody will step up to the plate. It's your responsibility.

It's a Christian's responsiblity to get the message to you.

It's yours to accept it.”

“So we can say that Mutt will be teaching his kids creationism side by side with evolution? To not do so would be removing free will to believe what they want, yes? And is it also safe to say that Mutt will also teach his kids about christianity in a completely neutral way so his kids can make up thier own minds without any unfair enfluence from his personal views?

Bullshlt and you know it...

Sure, Nigal, I'll be introducing the concept of creationism to my children. I'll also point out how the scumbag religious right is trying to use it to tear down the separation of church and state. I actually believe in creation, I just don't pretend it's science.

And don't confuse brainwashing with influencing. I'll honestly introduce my children to Christianity along with other religions, and let them see what makes more sense to them. What I won't do is say "this is the way it is, son, and it's the only truth".”

“i dont have to justify that belief. im not of a christian mindset. im starting from a blank slate mindset, a tabula rasa, so to speak. agnostic, i believe the word would be.

You are coming from a good place then Crash. Hell as we are taught does not exist. It was picked up from Babylonian mythology. The word ‘hell’ prior to Christianity meant, ‘the grave’, ‘pit’, ‘hole’. Only after Israel’s exposure to the Babylonians did it suddenly mean a burning place of eternal damn nation and punishment. It was picked up by Christians as a tool of leverage.

This may appeal to your interest in eastern religions like Buddhism but in Judaism (particularly Kabbalah) it is taught that when we die our soul returns to it’s source (of which it is a tiny piece of) and the soul is separated from the ego which is a very painful process and is seen as a kind of ‘punishment’ but it does not last longer than one year. Then the soul either hangs around for a final redemption or it transmigrates to another body down here. But under no circumstances does it go to either heaven or a hell. And believe it or not you won’t be judged for not believing this or that or in the Messiah or not believing in the Messiah. It’s how you changed the world for the better and how you loved and showed kindness.”

“Mutt - you sure do seem to like to talk religion for some who doesn't believe in it. CB is in the same boat. I get a sense from your(CB's) posts that you're looking for something.

I talk about religion because it pisses me off. I do have my own spiritual beliefs with which I am very comfortable. Unlike religionists, I don't need to have an explanation for all the unknown. I'm okay with not knowing. So sure, I'm seeking answers to the cosmic verities, but who isn't?”

“"Emulating Him is an example of fruit. A bi-product, so to speak. It's not what it's about"

thats the problem with christianity. the typical mainstream christian puts salvation ahead of doing good. to me, thats a selfish doctrine. enticing people to do good by focusing on saving their spiritual hide.”

“mutt - Is the child who is indoctrinated into Christianity not exercising "free will"?

What would be free will mutt?

Free will would be "Son, I'm going to teach you about Christianity because it's something I deeply believe in, but I also want to expose you to other religions, because I want you to be honest with yourself in what you feel is correct and have the freedom to pursue that."

That's all it takes. So small of a distinction, but it makes a world of difference for free will.”