The Power of Prayer

“i do not accept that jesus christ is the only way to god, if there is even a god to get to, or if getting to god is really even the point”

“sic semper diccus”

“I went to a parochial school. Our pastor invested a whole year of our catechism classes fairly studying other religions.”

“[hell] was picked up by Christians as a tool of leverage.

Of course, as is the concept of heaven. It always amazes me that as silly and childish as these concepts are, so many people actually believe in them.

These are simply man-made tools of social control that have all but destroyed xtianity's core message. Pretty effective at both, too.”

“Mutt - I must say I'm surprised in that you seem like you have to have answers.

CB - you won't find proof in any religion if your threshold is beyond a resonable doubt.”

“No, read my post above, dayhiker. I don't "have" to have answers. I like to have answers, I seek them, but I'm comfortable without them. I don't need a religio-myth crutch to fill in the gaps. I'm not scared of the unknown.”

“you won't find proof in any religion if your threshold is beyond a resonable doubt

and yet, many religionists act like they do, like these so-called "creation scientists"

that really bugs me. they say its all about faith, but some of them get frustrated and actually and sell out and say they have proof, which ironically undermines the point of having faith”

“I'm not scared of the unknown.”

i am, but im brave enough to search for answers on my own”

“Nigal - Approximately what date did Christians pick up the concept of "hell" being a place of damnation as use as a tool of leverage?”

“I think that was March 3, 0003? or was that March 4th?”

“crash - And you don't have to accept those things. But, if you're going to keep an open mind, you should at least take better care in your studies of "possible" truths. So far, your preconceptions about what Christians believe is very far from the mark(s). It's apparent you haven't been serious in studying what Christians do and do not believe. Consequently, you're only fooling and shorting yourself.”

“~jeapordy music playing~”

“The great thing is Mutt, I'm sure you would raise good kids who would go on to do good things in their lives. I feel that it's all about being a righteous person. G-d (wether we believe in Him or not) loves His righteous christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and yes, even atheists. It's a natural law and natural will to do good within us I believe in.”

“dayhiker - That is very close. I suspect Nigal won't provide an approximate date, because that date would have to be after the rise of Christianity. Therefore, if there are references to hell and fire and damnation in the Bible, his theory that it was only brought up later as leverage would be proven false.

Mark 9:43-48

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"

Luke 16:19-26

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."”

“ive been in the church for over 20 years, sarge. i know what they believe. but im also looking behind the curtains, the psychology of why they believe what they believe. just because i dont accept everything as Truth, and interpret things the way they (and you) do doesnt mean i havent given it careful consideration.”

“Well crash. If you've gone to church for 20 years, and you came out of that believing that Christians think that "from a christian pov, everyone deserves the chance[at Heaven]", then I'd suggest you may have been sleeping in church.”

“i think nigal may have meant judaism picked up the concept of hell from the babylonians. the flood myth pre-dated genesis.

sarge, you should read "a history of god" by karen armstrong. it will open your eyes”

““Well crash. If you've gone to church for 20 years, and you came out of that believing that Christians think that "from a christian pov, everyone deserves the chance[at Heaven]", then I'd suggest you may have been sleeping in church.”
Sarge

thats bullcrap, because i have been taught since early childhood that all will hear the word.

just out of curiousity, sarge, what denomination are you?”

“we have to keep in mind, theres a whole range of denominations. i was brought up mostly free methodist, with a little church of the nazarene and a little something else. if youre from a denomination with significantly different interpretations, that would explain our vast gulf in how we look at christians. if your experience of christians is x, and mine is y, that would explain a lot”

“I'm not referring to the "all will hear the word" aspect of your post, but the "from a christian pov, everyone deserves the chance".”

“there was someone on this board who surprised me by saying they were episcopalian, because my understanding is that episcopalian is rather progressive/rational. was it you, sarge?”

“I am not episcopalian. The denomination of the church I attend is irrelevant.”

“i meant the same thing when i said "all will hear the word" and "everyone deserves a chance"”

“crash - Denominations are irrelevant.

What is relevant is the Word of God.”

“i meant the same thing when i said "all will hear the word" and "everyone deserves a chance"

Which is exactly why I said you don't understand Christianity.

None of us are deserving, yet, we do hear the message.

That's the grace of God.”

“CB - I'll bet it was stratdewd. He's very conservative and was posting what his minister passed onto him when that denomination was voting on the homosexual bishop.”

“no its not irrelevant. the differing denominations within the religion of christianity are a microcosm of the differing religions within the concept of spirituality.

there are diff denominations because there are different interpretations.”

“maybe i dont understand how the christians youve been exposed to think, but i know how the christians ive been exposed to think. thats why i asked what denomination you are.”

“Stratdude is gay? :)”

“dh, youre right”

“None of us are deserving, yet, we do hear the message

only some of us hear the message. again, how can that be justified?”

“no its not irrelevant. the differing denominations within the religion of christianity are a microcosm of the differing religions within the concept of spirituality.

there are diff denominations because there are different interpretations c!b!

But you're not debating a denomination. You are debating me.”

“only some of us hear the message. again, how can that be justified? - c!b!

1. God does not have to justify what is. God answers to noone.

2. God knew everyone before they were born. He already knew their hearts. He knows who will come to Him and who will not.

3. God didn't promise salvation for everyone, and NOBODY deserves it. This is a point you seem to keep overlooking. Stop looking for a free lunch.”

“i have real problems with the whole idea that we all deserve eternal damnation, to be tortured for eternity, because we didnt do the right thing 100 percent of the time thru a lifetime of 60 70 80 or 100 years, and that god had to send his son to save us, because an unsaved person cannot enter heaven. gods making the rules. he created the universe. he can do whatever he wants. to let ppl suffer for eternity because we didnt pick the right saviour seems to me, well, capricious.”

“But you're not debating a denomination. You are debating me

and your denomination is part of who you are”

“crash - You want people to be rewarded when no reward is earned. He would be an imperfect God if He didn't have standards. Plus, He did provide a solution to your conflict. Jesus Christ is the solution. He is the way out which God provided.”

“and your denomination is part of who you are - c!b!

Again, you are debating me, not my denomination. What I had for breakfast this morning is irrelevant for this discussion, yet it's part of who I am. You are setting yourself up for ad hominem debate. That's where it originates from, debating the person's "resume" and not their message. Debate me.”

“1. God does not have to justify what is. God answers to noone

why the hell not? if he is all good, he wont take that high and mighty attitude with me. i expect answers from my deity. but im really not asking god to justify it as i am you.

3. God didn't promise salvation for everyone, and NOBODY deserves it. This is a point you seem to keep overlooking. Stop looking for a free lunch

well, if nobody deserves it, then why WHY did he put his Son literally thru hell?”

“Crash, it's the old 1-2 punch. Myth of hell + myth of origanal sin = more people joining your club which = more POWER.”

“the only reason i ask your denomination is because you keep telling me i dont know jacksht about christian beliefs. if you havent been exposed to the same christians i have, then you would think that. theres a spectrum of christian beliefs and interpretations, not just THE christian interpretation. if i dont know where youre coming from, of course i dont understand what you believe. youre right i dont know what you believe because many denominations believe different things. make you a deal. you quit telling me i dont understand christians, and ill quit asking you what denomination you are”

“Nigal - You are taking the argument that there cannot be a hell, because if there is one, it's because people want to scare you away from it.

So, if there truly were a hell, based on your argument, nobody should accept that it exists.”

“"why the hell not? if he is all good, he wont take that high and mighty attitude with me. i expect answers from my deity. but im really not asking god to justify it as i am you"

That's the great thing, you can get pissed at G-d and you can DEMAND He explain something you see as unjust. Look at Moses. When G-d was going to wipe out the whole Jewish nation for making the golden calf Moses told him if He did He was no G-d he wanted follow and He could just wipe his name from His book of life. G-d agreed and He relented. A supreme godhead you can debate with. Now that's love man! :)”

“God answers to noone

more likely, the answers could not be understood by our puny human minds”

“Nigal - You are taking the argument that there cannot be a hell, because if there is one, it's because people want to scare you away from it.

So, if there truly were a hell, based on your argument, nobody should accept that it exists.

LOL - WTF?”

“c!b! - Re: the denomination thing.

I believe it was YOU who wants to argue from a "blank slate".

I argue from the point of view of what's written in the Bible.

You are attempting to frame my arguments as coming from a particular denomination, but they aren't.

By your own philosophy, you should look at what is written in the Bible and not at what man has done to bastardize the Word of God.”

“you should look at what is written in the Bible and not at what man has done to bastardize the Word of God.

That's quite funny!”

“Mutt - Sorry if that was too hard for you. I'll baby it up for you...

Nigal is arguing that hell only exists because people want to scare people into Heaven. In other words, it doesn't exist, but it's a scare tactic.

That's not an argument for it not to exist.

In fact, He said it was drummed up by Christians.

Well, it's written in the Bible! How could Christians have drummed it up when their religion is based on what is in the Bible? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? The concept of a fiery hell of damnation was in the Bible BEFORE Christianity. So his argument makes no sense.

To make his point, he'd have to show that the concept of hell came AFTER Jesus's and His disciples teachings. He can't do that.”

“if god is good, then he understands my frustration and my thirst for Knowledge and would not be at all perturbed by my skepticism of a collection of books written centuries ago by barely post-pagan wandering nomads

it doesnt matter if i understand christianity, because theres no guarantee that it is Truth. many, many holy scriptures have been written by many cultures trying to find Ultimate Reality. it is really a waste of time trying to deconstruct one Belief system when there are so many Ways to the One”

“Why does this even have to be a debate? Why can't folks just discuss things?”

“God understands your frustration, but because of free will, He's not going to make you love Him. Love is not forced. It cannot exist by force.

You have to take the responsibility yourself.”