UN experts - WMD material removed from I raq

“Admit it Sarge, Bush is a lying POS.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/21/AR2005052100474.html?referrer=emailarticle

BTW Sarge your name withstanding something tells me you are too old to join the Army or Reserves and you don't have draft age children.”

“This is about the Petagon's Office of Special Plans

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/iraq/1448.html”

“Admit it Sarge, Bush is a lying POS. - SH

If I see a lie, I'll admit it. Still waiting.

"BTW Sarge your name withstanding something tells me you are too old to join the Army or Reserves and you don't have draft age children." - SH

What does this statement have to do with our debate? Oh, that's right! It doesn't!

* ANOTHER PERSONAL ATTACK BY A LIBBIE INSTEAD OF DEBATING THE ISSUES *”

“Sol ain't no liberal. He's more of a clasic America First isolationist (a la Pat Buchanon).”

“Anybody who pisses on the Constitution and the U.S. like sol is a libbie.”

“What does this statement have to do with our debate? Oh, that's right! It doesn't!

It has everything to do with the debate when I'm dealing with a chickenhawk. Chickenhawks are people who want the talk the talk but when the bullets start to fly tuck tail and run. People like "Bring 'Em on George" who was and is nothing more than a coward who used his money and his families' influence to dodge the draft and then didn't even have moral decency to go to his air national guard meetings. Those kind of people. Right now you seem like one of those kind of people to me.”

“Sol - Not sure if you're new here, but I served in the military. I fought for my country. I trained other soldiers including Army Rangers how to survive. So, once again you prove your "vision" of reality is wrong.

Regardless, that is irrelevant. Your ad hominem approach to debate shows just how much you have in the way of a valid argument.”

“I fought for my country. I trained other soldiers including Army Rangers how to survive.

Well now that that fact is established I'm wondering exactly when you fought for your country. Obviously not Vietnam or you'd know how this war is turning into that war. Everyone with any sense at all now undestands the futility of that war which was based in large part on the lies of LBJ.
This is not to belittle the United States fighting man getting ground to pieces in that fiasco. All honor and glory goes to him. It's not the fault of soldiers when they are caught up in the machinations of megomaniacs and corporations.

My ad homenem attacks on you are the result of your refusal to even consider some of the ample evidence I have presented that this war was the results of two things (1) a careful plan laid out at least ten years ago by a group of individuals that do not have the interests of the Unites States at heart. Those individuals are/were the Jewish neo-cons in the Bush administration whose real loyalty is to Isreal. Their goal is not and never was WMDs or democracy in the Middle East. Their goal was/is Israeli hemogeny in the Middle East. The Israeli right wing intends to dominate its neighbors through the destabilization of those neighbors. (2) the desire of the United States to secure and control the oil supplies of the Southeast Asia. (3) to insure that the US dollar would remain the defacto standard by which that oil was traded.

A man, your president not mine, who seems to be very poorly educated and easily manuipulated instigated this war. He lied about the reasons for going to war. No WMDs have been found. No Nigerian yellow cake either. No Saddam ties to OBL or Al Qaeda found. Yet still you persist. To me you appear a fool and I don't suffer fools well.
And hence, I call 'em as I see 'em.”

“Sol - Then why do you keep reading my posts?

If I'm such a fool, aren't you more of a fool for wasting your time? LOL!

Regardless of your reasons for using fallicious arguments, they still are fallicious.
last edited: 7/07/05 8:35:05 AM”

“Don't you idiots get it yet? Everyone knew that Saddam had WMD's! We SOLD THEM TO HIM!

Hell we KNOW where they are: They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad. North, south, east and west somewhat... You know... Approximately. That includes Syria.”

““Not a big fan of the Jew. I wear a smagh if I dayhike in the Summer. It is practical, comfortable and is a total mind game on the Hebs.

Sweet, I love America.”
bacpac
10:19:06 PM
7/02/05

I should have said something earlier about how reprehensible I think that post is.”

“why do you guys bother reading/conversing with private 3rd class dolt?”

“““Not a big fan of the Jew. I wear a smagh if I dayhike in the Summer. It is practical, comfortable and is a total mind game on the Hebs.

Sweet, I love America.”
bacpac
10:19:06 PM
7/02/05

I should have said something earlier about how reprehensible I think that post is.”
pedxing
7:08:25 AM
7/07/05

It's just one of many from that pathetic twist of flesh.
last edited: 7/07/05 9:10:46 AM”

“Sol: I have to raise my voice against disparaging someone's service to this country. Sarge put himself in harms way. My hunch is that he is telling the truth, and - even if it wasn't - he would deserve the presumption that he was. I have no reason to believe his stance on the war would be any different if he was up for duty in Iraq (something tells me it would not be any different).

Leave it to the Swift Vote Veterans for destroying Truth and the Bush backers who fell in with them to disparage a man's military service.”

“Sol - Did you serve? If you did, I'd be glad to talk military speak with you since you obviously don't believe me. What unit(s) were you in?”

“After the man said he fought for his country I clearly gave him the benefit of the doubt. What I gather from his position on this war is that he probably didn't fight in Viet Nam. Sarge can clarify the issue if he wants.

Sarge,
I was in the USAF from early 1970 to early 1974. Never went to Nam but knew plenty of men who were in Thailand. The USAF mainly worked out of there and the Phillipines. One of my best friends was in Viet Nam courtesy the US Marine Corps. Another Army friend died when the Huey he was flying in was shot down. He was the one of the guys manning the M60 when they went into a hot LZ. The unit I was in was the 363rd Aeroport Squadron based out of Shaw AFB, SC. It was our job to manage and load war materials onto C-130s and C-141s. A fancy name for having to sit on the flight line all day in the heat and load planes with forklifts and suffer the BS of lifers. Not really dangerous or glorious, just something a man has to do when the government is holding you by the short hairs. I never wanted to join the military but I do respect the people that join today. My beef has never been with the military. I hated the liberals who dodged the draft. They were the spoiled children of the rich men who were making fortunes off the war.

The reason I sit and laugh at you (and pedxing for that matter) is that this war is no different from that war in many ways. It doesn't matter if Bush said or implied the Iraqis could bomb us in 45 minutes. We haven't found any weapons. We are squandering our childrens' future fighting it ($300 billion so far). The US has a world reputation lower than China's or North Korea's. It will take years to repair it IF we can. The neo-con are dead wrong about the security of Israel. Israel as a nation will perish because of neo-con miscalculations. It's already well on its way to destroy anything left of its soul because of its apartheid nature. We won't secure the oil supplies. In fact we are alienating the very oil suppliers we could have easily bought the oil from at a fair price. We haven't secured the petrodollar's place in oil market. We have hastened its demise. And we certainly haven't even begun to win the war on terror. We have created more jihadists in the war than we will ever kill in Iraq or Afghanistan. So go ahead and split hairs if you wish. Most of the citizens of the educated industrialized western world and Middle East has already come about to my way of thinking on Bush and the Iraqi War.
last edited: 7/07/05 10:35:50 AM”

“The last time this thread was interesting, this was on top of the charts:

”

“and the very reason I started the "reign of fools" thread. go now ... read some roman history and its modern parallel, and above all else, enjoy the bread and circus!”

“We have created more jihadists in the war than we will ever kill in Iraq or Afghanistan.

You overestimate the ability of the jihadists to discern world events. Most of those guys are fighting for either money or lack of anything better to do with their time. For most, it's not about getting Bush, unlike many liberals in the U.S. They're preached to that the U.S. wants to give liberties to their people, and they're against it. I've noticed that's hard to swallow for many on this board, but it's true. Their old ways and ultra-conservative values and their Koran do not give them an outlet to become Westernized. It's (liberty) is evil to them. That's what's created jihadists. The opportunity is there now because we're there, yes, but those people aren't newly created jihadists, it's just the battle is on their turf now. Hey, we planned it that way. Imagine that. A sandbox. They (terrorists) have been attacking various civilized countries for many decades now, and it will continue. Don't for one second think that if we wouldn't have gone to Iraq they would have stopped terrorist activity. They've been working up to this for a long time. It's been their mission for decades.”

“This is rich. ROFLMAO! It's statements like the following that put you in a class all by yourself. I've caught flack over the years in TT but you are special man.

Anybody who pisses on the Constitution and the U.S. like sol is a libbie.

They're preached to that the U.S. wants to give liberties to their people, and they're against it. I've noticed that's hard to swallow for many on this board, but it's true. Their old ways and ultra-conservative values and their Koran do not give them an outlet to become Westernized. It's (liberty) is evil to them. That's what's created jihadists

Moi? Trashing the Constitution? Putting my libbie jack boots on the back of old Tom Jeff eh? And this is from a man who loves and voted for the man who gave us the PATRIOT ACT?

Liberty is evil to them? No I think you have that bass-ackwards. I think they love the idea of not having the yoke of US imperialism around their necks. That's the kind of liberty that is attractive to the jihadists. I think that they also like the idea of choosing their own type of government, culture, religion, economic system and everything that goes with it rather than have the US dictate everthing to them.”

“"They're preached to that the U.S. wants to give liberties to their people, and they're against"

altho its only part of the picture, i would agree with that. the hard-core muslim terrorists hate the permissiveness of our mostly secular culture. kind of like your super religious granny or uncle or whoever complaining how everythings gone to hell since women started wearing skirts above their knees, or whatever”

“but sol is right also in that they want us to butt the fvck out.”

“sol - You seem to not understand jack. I'm totally serious, you sound like somebody who has no clue what they're talking about. Do you?

This attitude of the jihadists started waaaay before the war, therefore your "they don't want U.S. Imperialism" theory is out the window. This is a theme you'll see in their culture due to mostly the younger generation adapting our culture, nothing to do with anything we did to them. You truly sound ignorant on the situation.

You are actually saying that the jihadists want a liberty that we can't offer them!

LOL

Dude, you are one misguided fellow.

It's apparent you don't know what liberty and freedom is.

Have you ever seen the stoning of a woman who was thought to be unfaithful? I have.

That's the kind of "freedom" they want.

It's pure evil.

But of course, we're all just an illusion so it doesn't matter, right?

If that's the case then why do you give a #&%!$ what happens?

unless you're a hypocrite

typical”

“imagine sarge in dark, swarthy skin and a turban, and as a fundamentalist muslim instead of a fundamentalist christian, amp that up times 100, while shouting "if you dont strap a bomb to yourself and blow up israeli and american civilians, YOU HATE ARABIA!"

disclaimer: the above image was in jest, and i know you can take it cuz we're buddies, right, sarge? sarge?
last edited: 7/07/05 10:21:54 PM”

“At least you said "amp it up 100 times".

It's a pretty accurate image c!b!

Sounds like you get it more than sol hiker.”

“or put it this way: they think sarge is a godless liberal”

“LOL!”

“it made for better comic effect”

“You are actually saying that the jihadists want a liberty that we can't offer them!

Amen to that. From now on I'm going to let your statements do all the talking for me.”

“I agree with Crash - culture clash is important and US foreign policy is a huge factor, too. If it was only Western freedoms/permissiveness, then the Jihadis would be all over European places where prostitution and drug use are allowed to be out in the open.

"They hate us because they hate our freedoms" is willful blindness if we stop there. US power has been projected into the Islamic world for a long time, Western power for far longer. One major reason for the hostage taking in Iran, for example, was the US backed over-throw of a democratically elected government in Iran in the 1950s and the installation of the Shah. US support for Israel is huge, as were US bases in Saudi Arabia. I think its wrong to conclude that everything that makes the Islamists and Jihadis mad is a mistake. It's as willfully ignorant to think the WTC/Pentagon attacks happened while we were just minding our own business because these guys didn't like our lifestyles as it is to think the Pearl Harbor attack came just because Japan wanted to sucker punch a potential rival (as best I can tell, the things the US did to antagonize Japan were mostly right on target - I would have supported them).

There are consequences to US interventions abroad. Why were the Sandanistas so repressive and anti-American? One factor was Salvador Allende, who wasn't. The Ortegas didn't want the same thing happening to them.”

“I gotta back Sol on the long term consequences of the Iraq war. Just look at the fact Al-Qeda grew out of the Afhan war and that was small potatoes compared to what's happening in Iraq.”

“pedxing - You and your views are blind.

How you like me now?

Anyways, back to not name calling and ad hominem attacks ...

I didn't say that we've completely stayed out of their "territory". It's our capitalism that they see. It's entered their society and they hate it. They are to blame. Somebody there is buying our products. Nobody if forced to purchase American companies/products.”

“Nobody is offering solutions to defeating al Qaeda.

All you say is it's our fault.

Typical liberal response.

I GUARANTEE if we did what they did, you'd blame us.

As they attack us, what should we do? Nothing?”

“sarge - the question that has to be raised is that are we any safer from invading Iraq or more at risk. Could AQ and it's splinter groups have been rolled back more effectivily without creating a focal point and recruiting poster for terrorists in Iraq.
It's looking more and more like a bad decision.
You could have rolled back AQ just as effectively and with far less cost in lives and tax payers cash by being more selective in your targets.

And Saege - they don't "hate us because we're free." You gotto be pretty dumb to buy that line.”

“Y2 - #&%!$ you ass hole.

Have you listened to Osama's preachings?

Answer me that before we continue.”

“The "they hate us because we're free." line comes from somewhere, Y2.

Take a wild guess where it came from.

Did some nutty conservative just pull it out of his ass?

No. Take a guess where it came from Y2.”

“"Anyways, back to not name calling and ad hominem attacks"

12 minutes and 9 seconds later

“Y2 - #&%!$ you ass hole.
last edited: 7/08/05 10:22:29 AM”

“the religious right here disdains much of the freedom or "permissiveness" here. why wouldnt the much further right of other lands? the religious right is nothing if not known for sticking their noses into other ppls biz”

“c!b! - #&%!$ you too. Why do the liberals always resort to it? Even pedxing is getting into it. As you know, I do it in retaliation after much pleading for it to end. If you'll notice, Y2 brought the ad hominem's back, not me.

typical

c!b! - Be specific w/ the religious right sticking their noses in other peoples business. If you're talking about the not wanting MURDER, then yes. But then again, we strive for civility. This is civilization, right crash? Maybe not.
last edited: 7/08/05 10:32:34 AM”

“Maybe we should just let people murder others. Then the left will be happy and we can all get along.

Yeah, they're sane! Not.”

“"Be specific w/ the religious right sticking their noses in other peoples business."

music, sexuality, clothes, language, etc”

“Again, be specific. Those are just words.”

“sarge, im not going to slake your need to argue. youre not going to draw me in”

“You made a claim, but can't back it up. I expected exactly that. That's why I asked the question.

typical”

“I didn't say it's all our fault. Some of the things that piss off the Jihadis are entirely right, others (like our material and cultural exports) are entirely legitimate. Other's like shelling the Shouf mountains in Lebanon - were bone headed - you can't have on the ground peace keepers and shell one party to the conflict and not expect attacks. The end result, was the Marine Barracks bombings and a hasty retreat by Reagan (which gave the message that we throw our weight around willy nilly until someone gives us a good swift kick).


PersonAs for Al-Qeda. I think Richard Clarke's outlined strategy from Against All Enemies (a very good read) makes sense to me.

I also think if we had focused all our energies on Afghanistan, we could have caught Bin Laden and we could have created a shining beacon of what a free Islamic country could be. As it is, we have not devoted sufficient resources or development aid and the situation there is in danger of turning to crap. More US soldiers have died there already this year, than in all of last year (or in any year).”

“11,000 troops afganistan - 150,000 troops Iraq.

Sarge - you're hillarious.”

“LOL!

There you go again pedxing.

You say you didn't say it's all our fault, but then you go right on and list more reasons why it's our fault.

You simply can't assign blame to the TERRORISTS. The people who TERRORIZE.

All you can do is blame us.

If what you say is true, why can't you write a post criticizing the terrorists? I bet even if you did you'd find a way to say they're "victims". You are unbelieveable.

You pretend as if you're open minded on here, but the fact is you NEVER came out and admitted you were wrong for SUGGESTING that Bush lied, and you NEVER have denounced the TERRORISTS, but instead are CRITICAL OF THE U.S. entirely.”

“Y2 - If you're suggesting that the number of troops in Afghanistan compared to Iraq shows our focus, you are the one that's hillarious.

At first I thought pedxing was suggesting that, until I reread his post. He's not so STUPID to say such a thing.

You apparently are completely clueless when it comes to military operations Y2.
last edited: 7/08/05 10:48:33 AM”

“You made a claim, but can't back it up. I expected exactly that. That's why I asked the question.

typical”

oh shut it, sarge. you LIKE to argue. just because someone bows out of a discussion because theyre not in the mood to argue does not mean they cannot back up what they say. youre so ingrained into chasing down every last little digression and debating until the cows come home that you cant understand why other ppl dont want to as much as you do.

now, if you want me to cut and paste some freakin news story, i dont have any for you at the moment. im not violin. my examples are more from personal experience and being in the church and knowing what they think and hearing the things they say.”

“So in other words crash, you want to argue and call other people on this board intrusive, but you won't argue when asked to back it up.

typical”