UN experts - WMD material removed from I raq

“I'll say it for you ...

"Huh?"”

“*not a GW fan*

But still, untill you people quit listen to the mass media (a tool far beyond what you know) and do your own, unbiased research, you really have no opinion in my mind. It is more diferent here in theater than you people know. Challenge me if you will, but I will probably not entertain you.

Most of the people of the middle east are not terrorist. Most of them like the fact that they are getting more say-so in the running of their countries.

The media only likes to report the things that you react to as news. It makes money.

You are the American people. Quit worrying about yourselves. You people have a lot. Even if you are poor. How many of you worry about your next meal?

Think like strong minded individuals that Americans are. Do not look at the situation at hand from just your cozy little Nikes or whatever shoes you are wearing.

Look at things from all of man-kinds shoes (provided that they can afford them). I think that you find that (in America) we are a truly blessed people. even the poor in our country have a place to get food and shelter.

You may be a bush hater, you may disagree with the war. BUT remember, you are not the people living under that dictator or in that country.

It is a difficult situation. Nothing is ever all right when it becomes war. The big picture is:

The people of our nation and of the host nations are at danger because of the leaders that did not follow the rules set fourth by a multi-national team. Terrorism is easy, and deadly. That is what we are here to try to stop. We see more than you. We get to know the mass population. We know that all that they want is a secure future that they can grow in and raise their children.

Does that sound unfair?

Please, get more info than just what you see in the news. Those people are just trying to get ratings, and peace does not sell.

Only the bad things are news.”

“Sarge knows a bit though... Are you in theater?”

“Not at this moment.

: )

Can't make those dang smilies.
last edited: 6/03/05 2:42:55 PM”

“hey BW, FYI lot's of posters on this board are vets and have done a bit of traveling, probably more than you would guess.”

“No Sarge, I kind of like it when you post stories from sources you've gone to great lengths to paint as unreliable. I'm saying that's a good thing ya did man. Why ya getting all pissy about it?”

“Geo - Can you please list for me the sources that you would accept from me without criticism?

Thanks.”

“I beleive ya sacco... Not all responses are bad in these threads, but MANY are just based on what people hear on FOX news or whatever. I am here, and I feel that people need to be informed of the intentions of the people here on the ground, working with the host nations, putting theirselves on the line.

No disrespect was directed towards anyone, more or less, just opening the thinking feild for people who may be just getting their news from just one source.

I know our mission here in the Horn of Africa. It is a good one. How many times have you seen it reported in the evening news?”

“Sarge, you really don't have to enlighten me about Saddam Hussein. I know what a brutal dictator he was and what he did. He would have to have been taken out eventually. My contention all along was to question Bush's methodology. I believe he used deliberate scare tactics to convey more urgency than was necessary, considering the level of the threat. This was done at the expense of building a more solid coalition that maybe could have taken some of the ugly burdens that we took on with the unilateral muscle flexing he exercised. I thought that was an error in judgment at the time and I still think so. The danger just wasn't that imminent. Bush supporters lay the blame for that soley on faulty intelligence, so as to exonerate him fromt he status of being a liar. Hey, we can't have two SOB lying sacks of sh_t in the White House in a row, can we? This is America! I mean, after the cigar and blow job incident, I don't know if our egos could take such a blow!!!
last edited: 6/03/05 3:00:22 PM”

“It would be a hard job to fill the Pres's shoes.

I know I don't want the job.

I am not a fan of his, but it is hard to say what is right in all directions, and to be the man to make those choices is voted on (although we all know the problems that have occured with that) by the people.

He was re-elected without a doubt.

The people have spoken, and when the next time around, make sure that everyone does their parts, and vote.”

“I vote, Blind Willie. This isn't even remotely the main reason why I think so little of him.”

“I understand that, Just being objective.

It's in my nature.”

“You sound like a pretty level headed guy, Willie. Kudos on the job you're doing, also!”

““Geo - Can you please list for me the sources that you would accept from me without criticism?

Thanks.”
Sarge

Hey Sarge, you were the guy who dissed the mainstream news sources, not me. Why are you asking me what I'd accept?”

“level headed guy?

when he's not in T.V. mode i guess”

“Thanks treebeard!

It's all about trying to talk to everyone and not above them.

We (not as Americans, but as the human race) are all one people, on one planet. We need to take care of our own on a worldwide basis.

Thanks for the support man.
~BW
last edited: 6/03/05 3:24:37 PM”

“You got it, dude!”

“Exactly what do you mean Sacco?”

“you know...”

“The fact is that when Saddam was making and using WMD's the US was playing footsie with him. Rumsfeld and others were helping him out and giving him intel on Iran. So the fact that the he used WMDs is scarcely convincing evidence for the war.

It's quite possible Saddam was hoping for a chance to stockpile WMD's again, it's also possible that he had decided that the costs of using them ever again were too high, its also possible that he was waiting for sanctions to go away. The best evidence is that Ritter and the UN inspectors were right, he didn't have an ongoing WMD effort and he didn't have any meaningful amount of useable WMDs. I'm no mind reader so I do not know his intent.

However, Saddam was in a box and clearly less of a threat than when we were helping him with Iran and sending people like Rumsfeld over to make nice with him.

Someone says Saddam got caught trying to bluff a Texan in a game of "hold 'em" and that seems a lot more plausible a justification for what happened than the idea that he posed an imminent threat.”

“He's gotcha there Blind Willie!

Hoisted on yer own petard, as it were.

But what the hey? Way to handle yerself, Dude. Way to strut right out there in front and show us how it's done.”

“The argument that there were WMD in Iraq ignores a lot of reality Ped. All that stuff Colin Powell was given to present to the UN was the supposed evidence, and not one bit of that has materialized to date. Now, after the fact, every ounce of whatever that could make up a weapon if it was only combined with 1,236 other ingredients is cited as evidence of WMD.

The argument supposes we forgot the run-up to the war.”

“wow dude. We go from an intelligent conversation to pure child talk. For you age sir, and your last response, you are quite childish.

I look better with the purple hair anyways...



Oh and hey, sacco:
http://www.thebackpacker.com/pictures/users/blind_willie_mctell/ulm7j7yw/h6ygyv.gif

And

http://www.thebackpacker.com/pictures/users/blind_willie_mctell/ulm7j7yw/4eeau6.jpg

And

http://www.thebackpacker.com/pictures/users/blind_willie_mctell/ulm7j7yw/2weqqbod.jpg

You are a silly man. Eat some of sarabelles magic doodoos and get really bad heart burn.

LMAO. Yer a terd dude.

what a weak comeback.

Yours always,
BLIND F*ING WILLIE”

“Geobeet can join sacco..... On the post above.


BTW... Nice Job on Memorial day, I read it.

Thanks
~BW”

“When I join a debate like this, I prefer to use only facts, and only what I know personally. It is on a professional basis. When someone has to use some dumbe #&%!$ like that, they are imediately lost.

I was nice, but now you are owned.


I have to go on patrol in the morning or I would stay and laugh at you guys some more.

It really was fun! Have a good night gents,

~BW”

“Hey, just because you can't have more than three beers in the cantina is no reason to be like that. Ain't our fault.

And thanks back to you. I was fortunate when I served and had three years of not getting shot at.”

“You started it....”

“Blind Willie, just exactly why are we where your at. What are you doing over there.”

“gee i was only funnin.

you're mean.”

“http://www.cjtfhoa.centcom.mil/

It's all good sacco.

It was fun!
last edited: 6/03/05 4:14:22 PM”

“Yer flagged BW. Ya clicked the wrongest button. Here ya go:

http://www.cjtfhoa.centcom.mil/”

“thanks.... I fixed it though...

LMFAO”

“S'okay man, ... I know the effects of rice wine smuggled back to the hooch.

Be safe.”

“<--- needs the scope bottle favorite....

*is all out*”

“Geo - Hey Sarge, you were the guy who dissed the mainstream news sources, not me. Why are you asking me what I'd accept?

It's a fair question. If you believe that if I give sources that you would normally accept, that that's unacceptable, and if you believe that if I give sources that I would normally accept, that that's unacceptable, then that tells me that you will accept no source from me.

So, do you mind if I just tell you what I think without backing it up with any source?

My question is simple. What sort of back-up of my stances can I give you on this forum that you would not criticize. If none, then you're obviously just a troll and have no intention of serious debate. I'm just trying to establish objectively what we all knew, but when you evade the simple questions, Geo, it makes my job more difficult to incriminate you.

So, do me a favor and answer my simple and direct questions so that I can expose you for the fraud that you are. Thank you.”

“How is this for a fact based response to Sarge's thread starter

Obvious fact on the UN anouncement regarding missing materials: The UN had identified ther materials and was monitoring them to be sure it wasn't used.

Fact #2: Materials being monitored by the UN were materials Iraq was allowed to have according to all relevant treaties.

Fact #3: While Sanctions and inspections were in place, these materials were being monitored to ensure that they were not used in the manufacture of WMD.

Conclusions: None of these materials were illegal and none of them were being used by Iraq to make WMD and none could be without detection while UN monitoring and inspections were in place.

Therefore: These materials have no real bearing whatsoever on any alleged imminent danger posed by Iraq.

Blind Willie: Do you have any objections to these claimed facts or the logic?”

“So, do me a favor and answer my simple and direct questions so that I can expose you for the fraud that you are. Thank you.”
Sarge

Man, if I could buy you for what you're worth and sell you for what you think you're worth, I would never have to work another day in my life. Sorry dude, but you don't know all you think you know, and you don't know very much about me at all.

Your arguments are not based on fact. You fancy yourself a debater, but using debating tricks does not make you right. You use that ploy in just about every argument with everybody you argue with: answer me, answer me. The problem for you is that you do it so often that everybody recognizes the pattern. And you're going to expose me as a fraud? Dream on!”

“Sarge - I know it's like talking to a brick wall - but think to youself this. Why doesn't the story say, "Teams find WMDs in Iraq."
It would be a huge huge story, and the smoking gun the administration is looking for? It would be all over the news.

What the story says is that DUAL USE items, which could "in the future" be used to make some form of WMDs, have gone missing either pre- or post-invasion. Now this happening in 109 incidences is what makes it concerning.
last edited: 6/03/05 10:51:59 PM”

“Sarge - It is clear you misunderstand the story. I'm not sure if you read it on your own or saw a link some pundit posted, claiming it said what you said it said.

These were all things the UN had under surveliance. None of them could have been used for WMD without setting off alarms. Yeah, Saddam prolly had fantasies he could salvage some of it and use it if sanctions were ever off and the world stopped watching.

You can re-hash all the arguments you want about WMD based on your reasoning or otrher evidence. The article gives no new info, except that the stuff the UN identified long ago has turned up missing after the invasion. The story is 100% consistent with the idea that there were no WMD and that Bush lied (it's also consistent with the idea Bush was right, and that he was mislead - in other words it proves nothing).”

“pssst: _{sarge is trolling - pass it on.}”

“Chili and I have discussed this on TT, but the thing I can never quite get out of my mind is SuperTroll posting right before the war that if we could see, what he gets to see, there would be little doubt about what was over there. Of course, that now begs the question, where did it go?

BW - there is a thread called "The Real Reason We're in Iraq" or something similar. I wrote the first post. I think it's in line with what you're saying.”

“Let me just say this and leave this alone.

You guys that think that Saddam did not have WMD and think he was not pursuing WMD are wrong.

Saddam had them, and was pursuing them.

Eventually, all of you will know that for fact.

It might not be this year, or in 3 years, but you will know that for fact some day.

There are many people who do know it for fact.

I cannot convince you based on what is presented to you on the evening news or from statements released from our government, so I will not try.

I will advice you of one thing. I know many of you do not take me seriously, so you probably won't take any advice from me, and that's fine, but you were warned. Do not hold too closely your beliefs that you were misled about Saddam's capabilities.

Geo - The plain fact is no matter what references I use, you will criticize me for using them, and if I don't use any (like just now) you will criticize that as well. You mention debating techniques. As you know, the one you are using is ad hominem. Very basic "technique" indeed. I realize many people think I don't know what I'm talking about, but like you said, "you don't know me", which really means "you don't know what I know". It will come back to haunt you some day. I'm cocky for a reason. Head my advice from above, Geo, but of course, you won't.

I seem to remember BearMagnet attacking me with the same verocity and surety that you are making the same types of claims about me that you are. Anybody see him around lately? Now that the event is 100% over that we were debating he won't seem to go back to the "Few Good Men" thread. I wonder why.”

“See, this is sorta like the thing with SuperTroll. He says it's there, but can't say anything specific. You know why he couldn't say anything? Security clearance, that's why. ST sits in a room with big monitors all over the walls and looks at this stuff all day from satelittes. The politicians can bash each other back and forth all day long about who's lying, but I've hiked with ST, looked him in the eye, sat around a campfire with him,.....and he felt strongly that something was there. Why would HE lie? He's not trying to get elected or re-elected.
last edited: 6/04/05 8:12:14 AM”

“Faith-based intel, Sarge?”

“SAarge, I do hope you are wrong. If Saddam really had viable WMD that were a major threat to the US, Bush would be worse thatn than a liar, he would be dangerously incompetent much to the peril of us all. The lack of planning and the lack of troops on the ground to secure places where the WMD might have been would be tantamount to negligence on colassal scale. The arms would be loose and the lack of any clear return address would eliminate the deterrence factor, while the invasion would have heightened the revenge motivation.

The sheer anarchy let loose and the absence of troops to deter looting at government facilities and other points of concealment was stunning. Bush and Rummy went with a troop strength that many would have deemed inadequate. Maybe the people with higher numbers actually believed there were WMD's that would need to be contained and secured?”

“Also, if there were WMD's and the President had such lead pipe solid information on what there was - it is amazing that we could now be so clueless as to where they are.”

“pedx- It's just not that simple.

First, you are assuming that Bush somehow accidentally let the WMD "get away" and now we're in worse danger somehow. You're also assuming we don't know where stuff went. What you hear on the news should be considered like reading the National Enquirer most of the time. It just isn't that simple.

As far as troop strength, I don't think you understand all the variables. For a simple example, our mission was never to, in effect, take over Iraq in as little time as possible. The troops that were/are there is plenty sufficient. There were/are many restrictions placed on our troops which prohibit quick decisive victory. That just is not reported at all on the news in the U.S. Again, it's not that simple. There are reasons why this is being dragged out, reasons Americans just don't want to hear, but reflect the reality of what needs to be done. We (Americans) want to oversimplify solutions, but when you get right into the heat of the problem, you see there are many more things to consider than what the back seat driver's want to even imagine.

What is "clueless", pedxing, to use your word, is the average American thinking they know what is going on because they read newspapers and watch the news. (I think you've heard that theme before on here from others) I'm not blaming the average Americans (I blame the press), but when they get too vocal about their "informed beliefs", I will say something (sometimes), as you well know.”

“pedx (and others) - Let me give you something to think about re: Iraq.
If you really understand this point, other things might fall into place a little bit.

Some media have brought up the point that some insurgents are, in effect, training in Iraq. They're learning how to fight us.

Here's something you don't hear anywhere else: We're learning too. We're learning a lot. We just might not want to leave Iraq at this point.

Think of it as a ... oh, I don't know ... a sandbox for American soldiers and MI.

... off to the gym ...
last edited: 6/04/05 12:00:38 PM”

“There is blood in the sandbox.”