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UN experts - WMD material removed from I raqView MessagesViewing posts 351 to 400 of 727 messages posted.
Jump to Page << prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next >> “Well, that's simply not what he said. You can spin all you want, it doesn't make it so.” 5:30:33 PM 7/01/05 “ that passage says that Saddam could strike the US mainland right now with WMD - Violin passage: Saddam Hussein is a threat to our nation. September the 11th changed the strategic thinking, at least, as far as I was concerned, for how to protect our country. My job is to protect the American people. It used to be that we could think that you could contain a person like Saddam Hussein, that oceans would protect us from his type of terror. September the 11th should say to the American people that we're now a battlefield, that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a terrorist organization could be deployed here at home. Violin - You are delusional. last edited: 7/01/05 5:32:28 PM” 5:32:05 PM 7/01/05 “Violin - You have COMPLETELY ignored the context of this argument. It was argued that Saddam could strike us with 45 minutes notice according to Bush's "lie" here in the U.S. The "45 minute" quote they got that from had NOTHING to do with striking the U.S. in 45 minutes. All your quote says is he could strike us with WMD. No kidding! He could. So could I! There's nothing magical about that! We all found that out on 9/11. The point is the battle has changed! The point he was making is terrorists DO NOT need missiles to strike us. Everybody knows that to be true. You're somehow trying to take that truth, which everybody agrees on, and disassociate it with the quote from above, and then REassociate that quote with something about Bush saying Saddam has the technology to hit us from Iraq. THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID. And you know it.” 5:37:41 PM 7/01/05 “Riiiiight. "Saddam Hussein is a threat to our nation" means "Saddam is a bad man who might threaten our allies or some vague US interests at some future date if given half a chance so we have to liberate the Iraqi people and spread democracy over this great planet. Amen."” 5:39:35 PM 7/01/05 “Read into it however you want. Hey Vileman. If on Sept 10th, 2001, I told you that a group of 19 guys from Saudi Arabia and a few random places were a threat to our nation, you'd say what? "Riiiiiight." But, you don't believe Saddam was a threat. A guy who attacked other countries with his armies. Riiiiight. last edited: 7/01/05 5:44:22 PM” 5:43:59 PM 7/01/05 “Not at all. Actually if you read the unofficial minutes of Saddam's meeting with Ambassador last edited: 7/01/05 5:57:20 PM” 5:54:23 PM 7/01/05 “Ahh, violin is the latest person to step up and argue with the rock.” 6:04:00 PM 7/01/05 “Ok. So if you agree that he was a threat to the U.S., then what's your problem? You agree with Bush. Glad to hear it. So what was all that about?” 6:18:40 PM 7/01/05 “Geo - In case you hadn't noticed, the other people are being "rocks" too. Of course, you have already picked sides, so you don't notice such things.” 6:19:37 PM 7/01/05 “Oh I notice alright. Everybody you argue with is stupid. I got it.” 6:52:11 PM 7/01/05 “Geobeet - All you have is name calling. No argument. And you call me stupid? You side with conspiracy theorists WHO POST LIES ON THEIR WEBSITES BY USING OUT OF CONTEXT QUOTES and big government unconstitutional hacks who think government should be able to tell citizens if they can have legal activities like smoking in their own place of business. Anybody who thinks that way is no genius.” 7:06:48 PM 7/01/05 “ding,ding,ding..the holiday weekend is here..enjoy it and come back Tuesday refreshed and ready for the next round” 7:18:29 PM 7/01/05 “Have y'all finish mopping up the floor with Sarge? I mean his electronic chin has pounded your diamond hard logic e-fists for days now. It's beginning to get pitiful. He's like some big dumb prize fighter that don't know when to fall. His e-face looks like ground up hamburger. Time for a real thread now.” 7:21:55 PM 7/01/05 “You're right of course. Time to let gashopper alone.” 7:36:08 PM 7/01/05 “Diamond Hard Logic? LOL NOBODY had produced ANY quote(s) in an entire week of this that showed Bush said Saddam was an imminent threat to U.S. soil because of his WMD capability, except of course for completely out of context and altered quotes(as the links I provided to the actual quotes reveal, and they have diamond hard logic? What a goof.” 7:47:53 PM 7/01/05 “We can agree on this. 1. Bush said he had WMD. 2. Bush said he was an imminent threat. 3. Bush said he was trying to become a greater threat to us. 4. Bush said he was trying to acquire additional WMD. 5. Bush said terrorists could attack us again. 6. Bush said Saddam helped terrorists. 7. Bush said Saddam's WMD program could get into their hands. 8. Bush said that Saddam could assemble WMDs in 45 minutes. But Bush never said he could attack us on U.S. soil on short notice in an effort to make citizens think that they could be WMD'ized in short notice if Saddam so choose, no more than if any other terrorist on the planet decided to do that. It just didn't happen guys, no matter how much you want to believe it and connect dots. last edited: 7/01/05 7:53:56 PM” 7:52:24 PM 7/01/05 “Rolling eyes now! Has Sarge been away on a Mars mission or maybe a time warp? Bush didn't mean it when he said all those things. Right!!!” 8:54:25 PM 7/01/05 “SH - Rolling eyes was right. Um, I AGREED he said those things. 1-8” 11:41:19 PM 7/01/05 “But Bush never said he could attack us on U.S. soil on short notice in an effort to make citizens think that they could be WMD'ized in short notice if Saddam so choose, no more than if any other terrorist on the planet decided to do that To me the important point is he whether he stated it or not he IMPLIED IT in order to justify going to war quickly. He could have waited to let the inspectors back in couldn't he? But WMD were not the reason he wanted to go in in the first place. They were; ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI 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SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL ISRAELI SECURITY AND OIL HOW MANY TIMES I'M I GOING TO HAVE TO TELL YOU SARGE? last edited: 7/02/05 8:34:11 AM” 8:30:32 AM 7/02/05 “  ”12:03:51 PM 7/02/05 “I just read the article and skimmed the thread... I don't think Sarge read the article before he posted it. He just saw the headline and he was off to the races, *VBG* Hey Phaedrus --- long time no seaweed!” 3:36:15 PM 7/02/05 “SH - That's completely irrelevant. I don't care what you think his reason was. You keep arguing points with me that I'm not arguing. It's like you're arguing with yourself, but using my name. Tilt. What article? I wasn't responding to an article. I was responding to people on here.” 4:52:56 PM 7/02/05 “  ”5:17:28 PM 7/02/05 “Sarge - I assume Tilt was talking about the article you began the thread with (I argued that you had misrepresented the article).” 6:21:42 PM 7/02/05 Sokay Sarge “My message is not really for the ignorati. I'm working the "I used to believe the US government really worked they way they said it did but now I'm beginning to believe there's a shadow government of elites that pull all the strings" crowd. It's the fence walkers I want. last edited: 7/02/05 6:39:01 PM” 6:35:40 PM 7/02/05 “Well Sol, I'm listening - but every once in a while you make me nervous. I hope you aren't about to start quoting the Protocols of the Elder's of Zion.” 6:56:12 PM 7/02/05 “BTW: I do believe that there are some on the far right in Israel who are very close to some of the far-right evangelicals in this country (mostly because the evangelicals believe that when Armageddon comes, God will come down on the side of the very militant defenders of Israel). Years ago, I met some of these folks in the West Bank (because my, then, wifes God-father was one of them). Like every other interest group, the hard line pro-Zionists (Christians and Jews) try to influence American policy. This is a far cry from saying that they control US foreign policy. They aren't that different from all the other lobbyists and interest groups in this country. last edited: 7/02/05 7:01:31 PM” 7:00:53 PM 7/02/05 “Right SH, nice cover up. Too bad you said "Sarge" in the original message though.” 7:15:07 PM 7/02/05 pedxing “Be nerveous if you want. I am not going to sit here and tell you I'm not biased against the government of Israel. I have been since about mid-June 1967. That's when the Israeli military deliberately attacked and tried to sink the U.S.S. Liberty. This was a Navy ship in international waters flying a large American flag. The Israelis murdered 34 American sailors and wounded something like 170. When the captain ordered everyone over the side, Israeli torpedo boats strafed the life rafts to kill everyone. I grew up in a Navy town. I heard the stories. I read the books and interviews of the men on the ship. So if you're one of those people who are going to say it was all a terrible mistake save your breath. It won't wash with me. It never did. The Israeli government and the right wing in Israel have a long history of this type of behavior. They have stabbed us in the back so many times it's not funny. And they're our allies? It beggars belief. Now we are fighting a war in Iraq that was clearly promoted by individuals holding high positions in the Bush administration and who have, in the past, had conflicts of interest regarding Israel. In the early 70s while working for Sen. Scoop Jackson Richard Perle was caught red-handed by the FBI passing classified information to an agent of the Israeli government. Paul Wolfwowitz and Douglas Feith were investigated for the same thing. According to some in the FBI these investigations were squelched because of the embarrassment this would have caused "our friends." If these guys were Arabs they would have been under the jail. And yet here they are in top Pentagon and DOD positions helping set "American" policy in the Middle East. And when they are not working in the government they're employed by Zionist funded think tanks and write policy paper for Israeli prime ministers advocating taking out(or rather the US taking out) all of the countries we now find ourselves at odds with. Come on pedxing, if it quacks like a duck it is more than likely a duck. Finally I'm not sure if you're trying the Protocols gambit on me or not. If you were, again save your breath. It won't work. A lot of people, including myself, are sick and tired of sayanim and ADL types playing the anti-semite card every time we point out what is clearly being reported in the press outside of the United States and on the face of it appears to be true. Here's an example by an Israeli journalist writing for Counterpunch. http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery04102003.html last edited: 7/02/05 10:14:25 PM” 10:10:03 PM 7/02/05 “Israel and Oil? Speaking for myself and not the President... Not a big fan of the Jew. I wear a smagh if I dayhike in the Summer. It is practical, comfortable and is a total mind game on the Hebs. Sweet, I love America.” 10:19:06 PM 7/02/05 pedxing “You know I really don't have to go read the Protocols to get my ideas about the neo-cons and the Zionists. I don't have to go to Stormfront.org or any of the other racist websites either. It's everywhere on the net. The interesting thing is how many Jewish people feel the same way I do about all this. Here's an article Gilad Atzmon. He's a famous Jewish jazz musician living in the UK. Many Jewish people worldwide know that something is badly wrong with the foreign policy objectives of Israel. What is going on in the West Bank and Gaza against the Palestinian people is nothing less than ethnic cleansing. The Israelis aren't just shooting rockets at terrorists. They're systematically murdering Palestian civilians. If what is taking place in Palestine were happening anywhere else in the world the outcry would be worldwide. Why that is not happening is a measure of the control that Zionists do have over the mass media. http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/3rd.html The 3rd Category and the Palestinian Solidarity Movement Gilad Atzmon 30.6.05 "As far as self perception is concerned, those who call themselves Jews could be divided into three main categories: 1. those who follow Judaism. 2. those who regard themselves as human beings that happen to be of Jewish origin. 3. those who put their Jewishness over and above all of their other traits. Obviously, the first two categories specify an harmless group of people. We do tend to respect religious people, as they are generally expected to be living inspired by their beliefs and are expected to abide by some sort of a higher spiritual code. Needless to say, we have no problem with the second category as well. One cannot choose one’s origin. We agree that people must be respected and treated equally regardless of their origin or their racial and ethnic belonging. However the third category is largely problematic. Clearly, its definition may sound inflammatory to some. And yet, bizarrely enough, it is a general formulation of Chaim Weizmann’s view of the Jewish identity as expressed in his famous address at the First Jewish Congress: “There are no English, French, German or American Jews, but only Jews living in England, France, Germany or America.”[1] According to Weizmann, a prominent Zionist figure, Jewishness is a primary quality. You may be a Jew who dwells in England, a Jew who plays the violin or even a Jew against Zionism. But above all else you are a Jew. And this is exactly the idea conveyed by the 3rd category. It is all about viewing Jewishness as the key element in one’s being. Any other quality is secondary. This is exactly the message the early Zionists were interested in promulgating. For Weizmann, Jewishness is a unique quality that stops the Jew from assimilating within the nation he is a citizen of. He will always remain an alien. This very line of thinking was more than apparent in most early Zionist writings. Jabotinsky, the founder of right wing Zionism, takes it even further. He is more than firm that assimilation is impossible due to some biological conditioning. Here is what he had to say about the German Jew: "A Jew brought up among Germans may assume German customs, German words. He may be wholly imbued with that German fluid but the nucleus of his spiritual structure will always remain Jewish, because his blood, his body, his physical racial type are Jewish." (Vladimir Jabotinsky, 'A Letter on Autonomy', 1904). The reader may notice that these outrageous racist ideas predate Nazism. Jabotinsky wasn’t alone, even the Marxist Ber Borochov who refers the Jewish condition to some historical and material circumstances is suggesting a remedy that is particular to Jewish people, i.e. Jewish Nationalism in which Jews will practice some proletarian activity, namely production. As it seems, Borochov lets Jews be separated from the international proletarian revolution. Why does he do this? Just because Jews are uniquely Jewish or at least the Zionists tend to believe they are. However, one may rightly ask whether it was the Zionists who invented this 3rd category? In fact, it is not that way at all. Seemingly, Shakespeare had noticed this very pattern three hundred years earlier. Shylock, the famous money lender from Venice was a proper 3rd category Jew. He clearly admits that more than anything else he is a Jew who possesses many human features. ‘I am a Jew’ says Shylock, “Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions?” And yet Shylock insists that he shares many human features: “Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is.” Shylock claims to be essentially similar to the entire humanity: “If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?....”[2] Noticeably, according to Shylock the Jew is as vulnerable as an ordinary human being and yet he is primarily Jewish. This is indeed the essence of Zionism, The Zionist is first and foremost a Jew. He can’t be just an ordinary British citizen who happens to be of a Jewish descent. He is rather a Jew who dwells in Britain. He is a Jew who speaks English, he is a Jew who gets his health services from the NHS, he is a Jew who happens to drive on the left side of the road. He is the ultimate Other. Generally speaking, 3rd category Jews are the ultimate Others. Just because they are always somewhere at the margins of or apart from any given human condition or human landscape. Zionist agents As it seems, Shylock was a Zionist, he fitted perfectly into Weizmann’s model. He was a 3rd category Jew. However, Shylock didn’t make it to Palestine. He didn’t engage himself in confiscating Palestinian land. He wasn’t even an Israeli soldier. In fact the 3rd category Jew doesn’t have to move to Palestine. Apparently, dwelling in Zion is merely just one possible practice within the Zionist philosophy. In order to become a proper Zionist you don’t have to wander. Sometimes it is actually better if you stay exactly wherever you are. Let us read what Victor Ostrovsky, an ex-Mossad agent, is telling us about 3rd category Jews. "The next day Ran S. delivered a lecture on the sayanim, a unique and important part of the Mossad's operation. Sayanim - assistants - must be 100 percent Jewish. They live abroad, and though they are not Israeli citizens, many are reached through their relatives in Israel. An Israeli with a relative in England, for example, might be asked to write a letter telling the person bearing the letter that he represents an organization whose main goal is to help save Jewish people in the diaspora. Could the British relative help in any way?.....There are thousands of sayanim around the world. In London alone, there are about 2,000 who are active, and another 5,000 on the list. They fulfill many different roles. A car sayan, for example, running a rental agency, could help the Mossad rent a car without having to complete the usual documentation. An apartment sayan would find accommodation without raising suspicions, a bank sayan could get you money if you needed it in the middle of the night, a doctor sayan would treat a bullet wound without reporting it to the police, and so on. The idea is to have a pool of people available when needed who can provide services but will keep quiet about them out of loyalty to the cause. They are paid only costs." [3] I assume that it must be clear that sayanim are basically 3rd category Jews. People who regard themselves primarily as Jews. The sayan is a man who would betray the nation in which he is a citizen just to satisfy a bizarre notion of a clannish brotherhood. Zionism, an International Network We are now starting to realise that Zionism shouldn’t be seen merely as a nationalist movement with a clear geographical aspiration. It isn’t exactly a colonial movement with an interest in Palestine. Zionism appears to be an international movement that is fuelled by the solidarity of 3rd category subjects. To be a Zionist means just to accept that more than anything else you are primarily a Jew. Ostrovsky continues: “You have at your disposal a non-risk recruitment system that actually gives you a pool of millions of Jewish people to tap from outside your own borders. It's much easier to operate with what is available on the spot, and sayanim offer incredible practical support everywhere….Now one might suggest that, for example, Great Britain could use a similar system and recruit among WASPS around the world. But they don't, because they can't. It takes an extraordinary degree of racial solidarity and racial motivation to develop and maintain such a "non-risk recruitment system" and see to it that it works properly. Remember, all of these activities are spying, with long prison sentences if caught. Americans of English, Irish and Italian ancestry may have some residual loyalties to the old "mother country." But this residue is nothing like the racial solidarity of the Jews. Such racial feelings are so strong and so pervasive among Jews that the Mossad knew in advance that their recruitment system was "non-risk." Britain, Ireland, Italy and the Vatican know better than to try to implement such a thing. [4] Ostrovsky is talking here about ‘racial solidarity’. But in fact, Jews are far from being a single race. As funny as it may sound, most Palestinians are more racially Jewish than the Ashkenazi Jews. So if it isn’t a racial solidarity, what is it that leads the sayan to run the risk of years of imprisonment? What did Jonathan Pollard have in his mind when he clearly betrayed his country? What do those 2,000 sayanim here in London have in their minds when they betray their Queen? I assume that we are left here with one possibility: the solidarity of the 3rd category Jews. It is namely a solidarity of the people who regard themselves primarily as Jews. I tend to regard Ostrovsky’s testimony as a very reliable report. As we know, at the time, the Israeli government was using every possible means to stop the publication of his books. In fact, this strange Israeli activity was more than an affirmation that Ostrovsky was indeed a Mossad agent and that the story that he is telling is rather genuine. In a radio interview Joseph Lapid, at the time an Israeli senior columnist, opened his heart and told the world what he thought of Ostrovsky: “Ostrovsky is the most treacherous Jew in modern Jewish history. And he has no right to live, except if he's prepared to return to Israel and stand trial.”[5] Valerie Pringle, the journalist on the other side of the line asked Lapid: “Do you feel it's a responsible statement to say what you've said?” Lapid: “Oh yes, I fully believe in that. And unfortunately the Mossad cannot do it because we cannot endanger our relations with Canada. But I hope there will be a decent Jew in Canada who does it for us.” Pringle: “You hope this. You could live with his blood on your hands?” Lapid: “Oh no. It's to...only it will not be his blood on my hands. It will be justice to a man who does the most horrible thing that any Jew can think of, and that is that he's selling out the Jewish state and the Jewish people for money to our enemies. There is absolutely nothing worse that a human being, if he can be called a human being, can do”. Lapid, later a member in Sharon’s cabinet, makes it more than clear: to be a Jew is a deep commitment that goes far beyond any legal or moral order. It is far more essential than any universal ethical perception. Clearly, for Lapid, Jewishness is not a spiritual stand, it is a political commitment. It is a world view that applies to the very last Jew on this planet. As he says: the Mossad can’t really kill Ostrovsky, thus, it is down to a ‘decent Canadian Jew’ to do the job. As is evident, a Zionist journalist is expressing here the most outrageous of views. He encourages a fellow Jew to commit a murder in the name of the Jewish brotherhood. In short, not only does Lapid affirm Ostrovsky’s report about the world of sayanim, he also confirms Weizmann’s view that from a Zionist point of view, there are no Canadian Jews but only Jews who live in Canada. I think that the above leaves us with enough room to conclude that at least in the Zionists’ eyes, Jewishness is basically an international network operation. Ostrovsky calls it ‘racial solidarity’, I call it 3rd category brotherhood and Weizmann calls it Zionism. But it all means the very same thing. It is all about commitment, a global agenda that pools more and more Jews into an obscure, dangerous fellowship. Apparently, Zionism is not about Israel. Israel is just a colony, a territorial asset violently maintained by a mission force composed of 3rd category Jews. In fact, there is no geographical centre to the Zionist endeavor. It is hard to determine where the centre of Zionist decision making is. Is it in Jerusalem? In the Knesset, in Sharon’s cabinet, in the Mossad, or maybe in the ADL offices in America? It might as well be somewhere in Wall Street? Who knows? But then, it is of course more than possible that there is no decision making process at all. The beauty of a network operative system is that not a single operator within the network is fully familiar with the network but is only aware of his personal role within it. This is probably the biggest strength of the Zionist movement. Looking at Zionism as a global network operation would determine a major shift in our perspective of current world affairs: The Palestinians, for instance, aren’t just the victims of the Israeli occupation, they are rather the victims of 3rd category Jews who decided to transform Palestine into a Jewish national bunker. The Iraqis, are better seen as the victims of the those 3rd category Jews who decided to transform the American army into a Jewish mission force. The Muslim world should be seen as a subject to some neo-conservative 3rd category tendency to make Nathan Sharansky’s Democratic ideology into the new American Bible for the 3rd world. It is pretty depressing indeed. The Jewish humanist The Palestinian activist Reem Abdehadi, when asked for her opinion about Jewish anti Zionist campaigners, said sarcastically: “they are very nice, all fifteen of them…” We must admit that not many Jews are there to fight against Zionism. However, amongst those few who engage themselves in this battle we find some people who insist upon doing so under the Jewish banner, e.g. Jews Against Zionism, Jews for Justice for Palestinians, etc. While writing this paper I have started to ask myself what category those Jewish leftist groups belong to. Clearly, they do not fit into the 1st category. Jewish left is a ‘religious’ atheist tendency. They really don’t like to involve God in politics or in anything else. In most cases they are hostile to Judaism and even to those Orthodox Jews who happen to stand up to Zionism. But it isn’t only Judaism that they dislike. They aren’t fond of Islam or Christianity either. Those amongst them who endorse the idea of a one state solution do insist that the future Palestine must be ‘a secular’ and a democratic state’. Not that I am in any position to suggest what the future Palestine is going to be, I would just try to propose that it must be down to the citizens of this future state to decide what type of kingdom they prefer to live in. Anyhow, those Jewish leftists fail as well to fit into the 2nd category. They do not regard themselves as ordinary humanists who happen to be of Jewish descent. If they were, they would simply join the Palestinian Solidarity movement like other Jews who prefer to act mainly as humanists. But then, rather than joining the Solidarity Campaign, they form some exclusive political cells that allow them to operate under the Jewish banner. Consequently, we must admit that they all belong to the 3rd category. In fact they prefer to regard themselves as ‘Jews who hold some leftist views’. Clearly, amongst those groups you will find some wonderful people who genuinely believe that Zionism is wrong, that Zionism is racist and nationalist. But in fact these people are themselves operating as 3rd category Jews. They all act politically under a Jewish banner. In practical terms, they all follow Weizmann’s school. Rather than being Humanists who happen to be Jewish (2nd category), they are Jews who happen to be Humanists. But then, since acting politically under a Jewish banner is in fact the very definition of Zionism, it is reasonable to deduce that all Jewish left activity is in practice not more than a form of left Zionism. One may ask whether it is really possible to be a left Zionist? Is there left and right in a network group that is set primarily on a racial category and clannish brotherhood? The answer is no. There is no left and right within Zionism but rather different right wing political apparatuses. Some Zionist political calls are adopting the shape of left discourse. I had noticed for instance that Jewish Marxists insist upon calling each other comrade. In fact they are mainly engaged in Marxist verbal rituals. But apparently, this isn’t enough. Ideology is more than a mere language game. In reality, those Jewish left clubs are operating as the body shield of the 3rd category identity. This may explain the fact that as far as the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign is concerned, those groups are primarily engaged in guarding some 3rd category Jewish interests that have very little to do with the Palestinians and their daily misery. If to be more precise, those Jewish left groups are engaged mainly in searching for ‘anti-Semites, Holocaust deniers and Jew haters. Somehow, they always find them amongst the most active and devoted 2nd category Jews. As it seems (to me at least), for these Jewish sporadic cells, Palestinian solidarity is just another instrument to draw attention to the myth of Jewish humanism. I will try to be very clear and transparent here. There is no Jewish secular humanism. No doubt many humanists happen to be Jewish and yet there is not a single Jewish secular humanist theorem or text.[6] This is mainly because Jewish secularity is not a philosophical position. It is rather a complete abandonment of God. Jewish secularity is a form of ethnicity based merely on some exclusive tendencies and a vague collective memory of some ritual heritage. So, is there a Jewish Conspiracy to run the world? Not really. First it must be clear that 1st and 2nd category Jews have nothing to do with all the above. For 1st category Jews, being Jewish means practicing Judaism. To follow a spiritual call and to obey God’s law. As we know, Zionism is still far from being popular amongst ultra orthodox Rabbis. However, I must admit that some would rightly argue that following the teaching of the Talmudic law many religious Jews do regard themselves as a chosen category. For me, this simply means that they fall into the 3rd category rather than the 1st one. This probably applies to the orthodox sects that allied with Zionism throughout the course of time. The second category Jews have no intention of taking part in any global Jewish networking. They regard themselves as an ordinary and liberated human beings with no special privilege. Amongst the 2nd category Jews we find the most enlightening emancipated humanists. Those very great intellects that contributed to 20th century liberal and humanist thinking. As we all know, hardly any of them came from Israel or a Zionist faction. When it comes to the 3rd category, we are faced with a slight problem. I tend to believe that the 3rd category Jews are mutually acting together. But then whether they are fully aware of it or not is a big question. Throughout the years they have formed a network that operates as a global Zionist body shield. They simply act in harmony, they protect each other. Even when they fight against one another, they depict an image of pluralism. I think that this is the essence of Zionism’s miraculous success. A week ago I read a brilliant insight by Rowan Berkeley on Peacepalestine website. Rowan, a Londoner whom I know vaguely, had been flirting in the past with the idea of becoming a Jew. In the following comment he is aiming to explain the common Jewish take on Zionism. In fact, without realising it, he describes the 3rd category tactic: “First they ask, Do you believe that (Jewish) Nationalism is a Good Thing, or a Bad Thing? If you say it is a Good Thing, they will direct you to the Jewish Right, which will tell you that Jews have as much of a right to be nationalistic as anybody else does. If you say it is a Bad Thing, they will direct you to the Jewish Left, which will tell you that you are not allowed to protest against Zionism on any basis other than Marxist or Anarchist Proletarian Internationalism - thus disqualifying almost all the actually existing anti-Zionist movements in the Arab world. They can get away with this ideological shell game because each individual discursive arena is controlled by one or another Jewish faction.”[7] Yes, I do believe that Rowan’s insight hits the nail right on the head. He is absolutely correct. But then, unlike Rowan I do believe that Jews Against Zionism are genuine. They simply fight Zionism without realising that they themselves are Zionists. Without realising that they are the most orthodox followers of Weizmann’s school. If they are really interested in bringing Zionism down, their tactics are obviously wrong. I wrote to some of them about the subject before, I have seen some discussion about my views in many different Jewish left circles and yet, I have never come across any argumentative response from any of those sporadic exclusive groups. Rather than being confronted with my thoughts, they are solely engaged in labeling. I have already been: ‘a self hating Jew’, ‘a Christian fundamentalist’, ‘a Holocaust denier’, ‘an apologist for Holocaust deniers’, ‘a neo-nazi’, ‘a Stalinist’, ‘a Zionist agent’, ‘an anti-Semite’ and many more. Two weeks ago, a small group of Jewish leftists picketed against me in front of a Marxist bookshop. I tried to write to them arguing that if Palestine is on top of one’s agenda, a protest in front of the Israeli embassy or any other 3rd category Jewish institute would be far more effective. They dismissed my call. I am fully aware of the fact that crucifying me and burning my books is no doubt a proper 3rd category practice, but unfortunately it isn’t going to help the Palestinian at the checkpoint. It isn’t going to help the millions of refugees who have been living for almost six decades without elementary rights. Israel is an inhuman political setup and we therefore must fight it as human beings rather than as sporadic ethnic or religious groups. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] (Chaim Weizman, First Zionist Congress 1897). [2] (Shylock, The Merchant of Venice by William Shakespeare). [3] By Way of Deception", Victor Ostrovsky , St. Martin's, 1990 pg 86-7 [4] Ibid pg 87 [5] http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0195/9501017.htm [6] If anything, Zionism in its early days was aiming towards the establishment of such a philosophy, a form of Jewish secular ethics. Obviously such an attempt was doomed to failure. Just because Zionism is unethical by definition, being that it engages in the continual ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian people." [7] http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/ last edited: 7/03/05 10:32:19 AM” 10:29:42 AM 7/03/05 4:12:44 PM 7/03/05 “Silent J - If you'll note above, I agreed that that was said (multiple times). There is no secret Saddam was aiding terrorists, and he had WMD. Putting 2 and 2 together, he could have easily have given them to terrorists. That's done even here in the U.S. from time to time. It's not "rocket science". All of what Cheney said was absolutely true.” 5:31:13 PM 7/03/05 “Sure it was all true except the WMD part. Oh and the al qaeda part. Oh, and the one crate part, since he had no nukes or bio weapons. But yeah, that Cheney is so honest, it hurts.” 7:43:34 PM 7/03/05 “Sarge: Which terrorists was Saddam aiding?” 10:43:14 AM 7/04/05 “First off, let me say that even factcheck.org admits there was nobody from the Bush administration that said that Saddam was working with al qaeda terrorists to cause the events of 9/11. So you cannot say Bush lied about that, because he never said it, as I have maintained. The only thing in debate (for us) is if terrorists were training in Iraq. The answer is "yes". Some of the terrorist groups that worked with Saddam before we arrested him were the Palestine Liberation Front, the Abu Nidal Organization, the anti-Tehran Mujahedin-e Khalq, and the Kurdish Workers Party. There are also unnamed ideological groups which Saddam had recently worked with. There were also terrorist organizations which trained in Iraq, but were neither working with Saddam, nor stopped by Saddam.” 11:57:39 AM 7/04/05 “Sarge, As with the other line you've drawn, I haven't seen any place where Bush people crossed the line of accusing Saddam of being behind 9/11 - but they came close to saying it and they definitely implied it. As factcheck.org puts it: "It's a matter of record that Bush and Cheney repeatedly accused Saddam Hussein of aiding al Qaeda terrorists and providing them a base, but stopped short of accusing him of aiding the September 11 attacks specifically." They add: 'Before the US invaded Iraq, President Bush said he had intelligence evidence that "Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda." Vice President Cheney said Iraq was the heart of "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."' For me, here and elsewhere, a member of the Bush team connects Iraq to 9/11 in a way that leads the Public to see Saddam and Iraq as involved in carrying it out - without actually saying they were. There is a reason so many Americans have believed Iraqi's were involved in the 9/11 attacks.” 12:44:09 PM 7/04/05 “There may be, but that's their own ignorance, plus I blame the media. AS the media was putting more focus on reporting the al quaeda ties that the administration was, I criticized them for it. We're going to go round and round if we both agree that Bush and co. didn't say it, yet the public decided to believe that they did. On one hand you admit it wasn't said, and on another you blame Bush for what some people perceived. I believe the only reason SO many perceived it that way is because the media made a bigger deal out of things and focused on things that the administration wasn't. I was FURIOUS as I watched it happen before my eyes. I sat and watched press conferences (not the edited version) as the unfolded and I watched how Ari and others were trying SO VERY VERY VERY HARD to talk about one thing, but the media would be FEROCIOUS (I use that word intentionally) about trying to talk about what they wanted to and focus and put attention on things (like possible Saddam/al qaeda ties to 9/11). I saw this coming from the beginning. I am telling you, and obviousoly you'd rather believe it to be Bush's fault ... but this "scare" was NOT perpetuated by Bush. Again, Bush and co. DID NOT say there was a tie to 9/11, and you admit that. So why are you so focused on trying to blame Bush for your misunderstanding? Take responsibility for youself. There were people like me saying one thing, and people like you WHO CHOSE WHO YOU WOULD LISTEN TO, from the beginning. You chose the wrong people. You were misled by the media. Take responsibility for your own misunderstanding. Again, it's pointless to go around and around on this. You admit he didn't say it, and you admit you believed something that wasn't said. Stop putting the blame elsewhere. I am not going to take responsibility for YOUR misunderstanding, neither should anybody else, other than YOU. While people like you were clinging to your liberal news sources which have a history of lying, deceiving, and only telling THEIR side of the story, people like me were ignoring them and watching things as they unfolded FOR REAL. I learned my lesson during the first Gulf War. I was a liberal until I learned how the media skews the actual events JUST LIKE THIS. I saw this media spin unravel AS IT HAPPENED because I knew what to look for. Take this as a lesson learned pedxing. Realize what I realized long ago, the liberals and the liberal media are one in the same. They spin things for (1) what sells, and (2) what gets their agenda across. Those that decide to listen to them are deceived, as you, admittedly, were. I'm done with this. I believe it's obvious there was a misunderstanding. If you would have listened to what Bush and co. said, in context, in it's entirety, as it was being said, without the media spin, you would not have been misled, as the evidence in hindsight proves, they did not say the things you and liberals have accused them of saying, as you now, reluctantly, admit. Turn from the Dark Side pedxing. Join the conservatives. Join the side of truth and honesty. Stop siding with those that spin the news. Start siding with those that stand for freedom. last edited: 7/04/05 1:15:26 PM” 1:10:44 PM 7/04/05 “  ”1:18:00 PM 7/04/05 “Can somebody explain the difference between the liberal media spin factory and the conservative semantic word game? I'm under the impression the liberals being far more entertaining is the only difference. Last Throes - 23 MB WMV” 4:59:45 PM 7/04/05 “The difference is that the liberal media spin is just that, whereas the "conservative semantic word game" was created via the liberal media spin. Did you not read the explanation above? What you perceive as a "word game" is just people talking. After the liberal spin hits it is when it becomes a "word game". You heard what you wanted to hear, even though it wasn't said. This isn't rocket science.” 8:25:56 PM 7/04/05 NEWS FLASH “This just in. "BUSH: REASON FOR IRAQ INVASION, NOT WMDs, BUT WWRs, Women Without Rights! Bush on ITV1 ("Tonight" program) in Britain on July 4 prior to G8 in Scotland. His reason for Iraq invasion has gone from WMDs (weapons of mass destruction) to WWRs (women without rights). Bush has a very serious problem with understanding reality. The 25th Amendment comes to mind as a very serious option. TONIGHT: Mr President, if I can move on to the question of Iraq, when we last spoke before the Iraq war, I asked you about Saddam Hussein and you said this, and I quote: "He harbours and develops weapons of mass destruction, make no mistake about it." Well, today, no WMD, the war has cost 1,700 American lives, many more Iraqi civilians killed, hundreds of billions of dollars in cost to your country. Can you understand why some people in your country are now beginning to wonder whether it was really worth it? PRESIDENT BUSH: Absolutely. I mean, when you turn on your TV set every day and see this incredible violence and the havoc that is wreaked as a result of these killers, I'm sure why people are getting discouraged. And that's why I spoke to the nation last night and reminded people that this is a - Iraq is a part of this global war on terror. And the reason why foreign fighters are flocking into Iraq is because they want to drive us out of the region. See, these folks represent an ideology that is based upon hate and kind of a narrow vision of mankind - women don't have rights. And I believe this is an ideological movement. And I know that they want to use suicide bombers and assassinations and attacks on the World Trade Centre, and the attacks in Madrid, to try to shake our will and to achieve an objective, which is to topple governments." http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/ Out of touch with reality isn't the half of it. Either Dubya's snorting coke or showing early signs of senile dementia. He needs a medical and psychological evaluation right now. last edited: 7/04/05 10:06:30 PM” 10:04:32 PM 7/04/05 WTF!!! ROFLMAO!! “"Turn from the Dark Side pedxing. Join the conservatives. Join the side of truth and honesty. Stop siding with those that spin the news. Start siding with those that stand for freedom." I think Sarge is under the influence of some serious psychotropic drugs. Maybe he's taking the same stuff Bush is hopped up on. Hey Sarge what are you gonna say when this Yellow Cake / Plame / Karl Rove incident starts getting really close to Bush? You going to drink the Kool Aid on that one too? It's going to be fun watching you squirm. "Oh what a tangled web we weave......." last edited: 7/04/05 10:19:28 PM” 10:16:37 PM 7/04/05 “Your right, it's not rocket science. If the president is ranting and raving about what a threat Hussein is and how we need to take him out immediately for the safety of the U.S. and the world then he has implied that he is an immediate threat. Other wise the statement makes no sense. Nobody would have supported the war if the president had said, "If sanctions are ever lifted then Saddam will pose an immediate threat." So, he spun his words into such an ambiguous statement so as to imply one thing and to save his ass later by claiming 'Hey, I didn't actually say he was an immediate threat.' The problem here is that grown ups don't just speak simple words with singular meanings. We communicate through words, body language, and tone to create a vivid and sharp image in the mind of the recipient. Maybe the problem is that we need to actually elect somebody who can act like a grown up the next time we're at the polls.” 11:40:01 PM 7/04/05 “Silent J - Anybody who wants to attack the U.S. is an immediate threat. I think you're purposefully ignoring painfully obvious things about war at this point. If I, Sarge, wanted to cause death and destruction to the U.S., I could do it very simply. With a little thought, so could you. He was just as much an imminenent threat as ANYBODY wanting to attack the U.S. What he didn't have is the ability to shoot us with missiles at that time. Stop making this more complicated than it is to fit your agenda. SH - Not much out of you other than personal attacks. I see you find it easier to attack me than the debate itself. You are changing the subject once again. This isn't about yellow cake, or Rove, or your me, this is about Bush, Saddam, WMD, missiles and terrorists. But you'd rather talk about other things because you can't prove your own case. Oh, what a typical web we weave ...” 4:59:42 AM 7/05/05 Sarge “You seem to love quoting Dubya so I thought I'd obige you with that gem. If you look at the date on the quote it was July 3rd or 4th so it's fresh. Fact is, put Bush in front of a press where he hasn't reviewed the questions in advance and the dumbass doesn't know what to say. He's fishing for an answer that someone, anyone might fall for. You obviously believe the WMD and nuclear threat quotes. Fine, all I want to know is when Karl Rove is indicted for passing infomation that got at least one CIA operative killed are you going to find excuses for the Bush crowd and post some more pictures of the flag and a bald eagle? And as far as that idiotic statement about "turning from the dark side" I'll let that stand on itself.” 6:55:23 AM 7/05/05 Sarge quoting you now “Silent J - Anybody who wants to attack the U.S. is an immediate threat. Surely you don't believe what you just said?” 6:59:33 AM 7/05/05 “SH - I couldn't care less about Karl Rove. What makes you think I do and why are you changing the subject. Oh yeah ... the it's easier than debating the issue thing ... re: immediate threats - Surely you're not so naive. Maybe you're right SH. Maybe the borders are rock solid. Let's open 'em up. Maybe you're right and killing people is weawy weawy hard. typical dodger” 7:10:08 AM 7/05/05 “Sarge - Bush and his Buddies did keep tieing Saddam to 9/11. They just never quite said there was a causal relationship. Watching those press conferences and reading the texts of those speeches, it seemed clear to me that they were playing the media. And it was the conservative talk show hosts that I heard taking the lead in screaming about WMD's and Saddam Al-Qeda. One of the worst things to me - perpetrated by Bush, his conservative pundits and parroted by the main stream media is this talk as if terrorism was a force, was and end and not a means. Just calling the war in Iraq, "the war on terror" is vastly misleading.” 10:01:40 AM 7/05/05 “All of that is irrelevant on this issue at hand. I do not think they tied him to 9/11 in the manner we've been speaking. Did he say 9/11 was caused by bad guys and did he say Saddam was a bad guy? Yes. But in the context that we cannot let terrorism happen again in this country. Which I think we all agreed on. Unless you want to forget 9/11? re: conservative talk shows - I don't watch them and so I have no comment other than they are "talk shows". They are not the news and they are not official statements by the administration. It has been said by Bush and his people that the war on terror is vast. That it is not just in Iraq. If you haven't understood that message by Bush, then you haven't been paying attention to what he's been saying.” 10:06:59 AM 7/05/05
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