Do Drugs? You helped KILL this man.

“Your money keeps these killers in business.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/10/mexico.police.chief.ap/index.html”

“You're right! Legalize it and poof! No more drug gangs fighting and killing good men!”

“Beware of known drug smugglers!

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB113/”

“im conducting a poll

most annoying political baiting from otherwise really cool guys: stovestomper or geobeet? you decide”

“What are you doing to my nice little thread, C!B!???
You on drugs? Get your own thread! ;-)

Seriously, you guys that buy drugs should think about where your money is going or at least grow your own.
last edited: 6/10/05 5:39:10 PM”

“Do cigars count?

Chicks with cigars are SMOKIN.

”

“I think it is okay for people to advocate legalizing marijuana (even though it gets voted down each time). But until it gets legalized, when you buy illicit substances, you are supporting murder, bribery, corruption, torture, and ruined lives. So just say no, unless you like to support murder, and depravity by those who deal in it.”

“Have you ever asked how an industry larger than General Motors can fly below radar? How can such a huge idustry remain in the closet? Just like illegal immigration, if our government really wanted to keep drugs out they would. This is not a conspiracy theory just history.
Bateaux


Combined with revelations in a 1998 CIA Inspector General's report of Contra-era cocaine trafficking in which the CIA admits to "briefing" then Vice President Bush on how it lied to Congress about cocaine trafficking by its agents.

Throughout 1982, Democrats, fearing that President Reagan was pushing the United States into another Vietnam-style quagmire, tried to cut off aid to the Contras. It was precisely at this time, the height of CIA Director Bill Casey's frenetic efforts to ward off these Congressional efforts, that Barry Seal acquired use of not one but several brand new Beech Craft King Air 200s. Ownership of the planes had been deliberately obscured through a number of convoluted transactions involving Phoenix-based corporations suspected of being "fronts" for General John Singlaub's "Enterprise" activities. Based in Phoenix, Arizona, Retired Major General Singlaub organized in early 1982 an American chapter of the World Anti-Communist League (WACL), called the United States Council for World Freedom (USCWF), with a loan from Taiwan. Funding for Seal's planes would come from sources close to those efforts.

"Jack" Singlaub had a long history of involvement in covert operations, beginning with service in the World War II Office of Strategic Services (OSS). He had served as CIA Desk Officer for China in 1949 and Deputy Chief of Station in South Korea during the Korean War, and during the Vietnam War he commanded the Special Operations Group Military Assistance Command, Vietnam--Studies and Observation Group (MACVSOG), which participated in the CIA's Operation Phoenix assassination program.

Singlaub's efforts, and Seal's as well, had been necessitated by the shocking scandals of the 1970s combined with drastic reductions in "official" CIA capabilities in the Carter years. Until then, the CIA. had controlled a huge network of planes, pilots and companies for use in paramilitary situations. But with the end of the Vietnam War and the public revulsion at disclosures of out of control CIA covert operations, many of those assets (such as the infamous Air America) were dissolved or sold off.

Consequently, when the Reagan Administration sought to expand covert paramilitary operations in Central America and elsewhere, the Agency was forced to rebuild much of its capabilities illegally, relying frequently on outside assets, usually retained under contract, like Barry Seal. The Contra war put everything into high gear.

The CIA and the Army jointly agreed to set up a special aviation operation called "Seaspray," New York Times reporter Seymour Hersh revealed in 1987. [This was old news to local and state police in affected areas. Cops had already seen the cynical (and perhaps intentional) manipulation of this operation flooding America with a river of drugs. When law enforcement authorities debriefed convicted "drug smuggler" Seal in late 1985, one of the cops present brusquely began by stating, "We already know about Seaspray."]

Barry Seal began flying private planes into a then-obscure airport in the secluded mountains of western Arkansas known as Mena. He moved his base of operations from Louisiana to hook up with the CIA, which was anxious to use Seal's fleet of planes to ferry both legal and illegal supplies to Contra camps in Honduras and Costa Rica.

Also early in 1982 a new covert unit of the Armed Forces was set up by General Richard Stilwell. Known as the Intelligence Support Activity (ISA), it became a separate entity in the Army's secret world of special operations, with its own commander, a Col. Jerry King. The army's involvement in secret operations would first became known to the House and Senate intelligence committees in early 1982, when they discovered a project known as Yellow Fruit, which ferried undercover Army operatives to Honduras, where they trained Honduran troops for bloody hit-and-run operations into Nicaragua.

Through private front companies, like the ones that supplied Barry Seal with his fleet of smuggling aircraft, Operation Yellow Fruit ferried weapons like rapid-fire cannons to CIA operatives. It was these same operatives who later mined Nicaragua's harbors and raided oil depots, all in violation of Congressional legislation barring the Defense Department and the Agency from taking any action aimed at overthrowing the Sandinistas.

The Army went to outside businessmen and arms dealers to make off-the-books airplane purchases, with funds that had been "laundered" through secret Army finance offices at Fort Meade, Md. More than $325 million was appropriated for the Special Operations Division of the Army between 1981 and the autumn of 1983. Had any of these operations become public then it would have caused enormous political damage to the Reagan Administration's campaign in Central America, according to a 1987 New York Times report by Seymour Hersh.

"Enter CIA Agent Adler Berriman Seal" The flight plans for Seal's drug enterprise provided the perfect cover for the illicit resupply missions. Seal's planes would fly from Mena to Medellin Cartel airstrips in the mountains of Colombia and Venezuela, make refueling stops in Panama and Honduras, and then return to Mena, where, en route, the planes would drop parachute-equipped duffel bags loaded with cocaine over Seal-controlled farms in Louisiana.”

“There is also evidence that the CIA paid for stinger missles with opium money. Osama and his men humped the drugs over the mountains and to a port in Pakastan. There, they traded the drugs for missles which were used by the Mujahideen against the USSR. The drugs were taken to the West Coast of the USA and distributed to couriers who then further distributed the stuff all over North America.

Suport the CIA? You had a hand in KILLING that Mexican cop.
Suport the CIA? You also have a hand in poster boy Pat Tillmans death.”

“It's fun pretending like the men who are protecting you and your families freedoms and lives are a bunch of scum when you only know bits and pieces of reality, isn't it guys?”

“It is fun to have a government which lies and cheats its way through situations.
It'll be more fun when this war is over and the USA will be forced to deal with democracies much like our own.”

“goat - You're welcome to live under another government.

Take your pick:

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/world.html”

“Oh, thank Sarge. (salute font)
Why is it that speaking up for something which doesn't conform to the norm, often comes to an offer to move to another land? Living anywhere else, we'd still have to put up with your crap.”

“Why is it that you hate this government so much that all you can do is criticize it, yet you still live here? Get some balls and go enjoy your life. Life is too short. Find a country you'll be happy in and enjoy! There are plenty of countries we haven't invaded, yet.”

“Why do you think they call it dope?”

“Hate... that is a strong word.
Sorry that you mistook my freedom of speech as "hate".
Not only do I criticize, I vote.
I still live here for reasons that a person like you won't understand.
I've got balls, man.
'm not enjoying what I am doing now, but it something that must be done.
I've enjoyed many counties and enjoy coming home also. The thing I enjoy about most other countries is the people. Lots of long conversations have been had with people in other lands. Although we don't always agree with each others words, not one of them has ever told me to go back home. I have had invitations to stay.

Now for you... Why your love for this country so blinding? Squint!!

Squint!!!”

“In one post you said you enjoy this country, and that my love for this country is "blinding".

Why do liberals hate this country so, and then when called on it, say it's "freedom of speech"?

Got news for you goatsie, your "freedom of speech" wasn't free. Those people you're criticizing so strongly fight every day so you can say what you want.

Yes, it's your right. And it's my right to call you a #&%!$ing #&%!$.”

“Sorry Sarge (salute font)...

With all due respect (little), I couldn't find where it was I said "(I) enjoy this country".

Perhaps you oughta stick with the subject and quit making personal attacks.”

“Wow! A string of posts I agree with most of the posts I read here...

Tree, Stove, Prosecutor - I agree with all of you. While drugs are illegal, I support legalization of marijuana - but have a moral obligation to speak against illegal drug traffic. We need to do what we can to keep money out of the hands of the illegal drug industry.

Bateaux: It is important to remember how the US under people like North has played footsie with drug trafficers.

And Phaed - you have a good point, too.”

“OK - I'm ducking the Sarge-Goat eruption.

As Bateaux-Driver's link indicates, US intelligence services have been involved in some hugely unsavory things. This does not meant that equating support for the CIA with support for the drug industry. You can support the CIA, without supporting everything it does. There is a system of oversite, which does often work.

I can't speak for Sarge, and never liked the "love it or leave it" message - but I didn't see Sarge denying that CIA and other US intelligence agents had done scummy things. What sets off thoughtful conservatives is the blanket condemnation.

BTW: I admit to a blanket suspiciousness of the CIA (I do suspect some in the CIA helped cook the books on WMD), but having known people at very high levels of the US intelligence services, I am convinced that there are many thoughtful, principled, decent people there.”

“goatsie - Why do you have a problem with me making personal attacks, but when you attack this country it's ok because it's "freedom of speech"?

hypocrite”

“Sarge (salute font)...
I have a problem with anyone making personal attacks in this forum. Mainly because it is done to divert attention from the issue, and to degrade an individual.

Now, in my last post, I asked you to tell me (and the rest of the readers) where it was that you found where I said the following words, "(I) enjoy this country". You have chosen not to answer that question, and haven't apologized for sugesting that I did say it.
Instead, you attack again.”

“(salute font) I have a problem with anyone making personal attacks in this forum. Mainly because it is done to divert attention from the issue, and to degrade an individual.

(salute font)

Please tell me where I said you said the following words: "(I) enjoy this country". The only word I quoted from you was "blinding". Other than that, you said you enjoy returning to this country. By default, you enjoy this country if you enjoy returning to it.

Oh, and you never answered my question about freedom of speech.

hypocrite (salute font)”

“Saying that I enjoy returning to this country does not by default mean that I enjoy this country.

Twisting words or leaving words out seems to be a tactic you employ often. In this case, you left "returning" out of a phraze, then attacked me for saying something I didnt' say.
I supose we could move on to the freedom of speech issue after agreeing to the resolution of this issue. (Salute phont)”

“If I were you I would worry more about what you say than what people say about you.

People see you for what you are.”

“bacpac... one certainly can not see me for what I am by reading anything on this thread.

If we return to the subject of the first post, stovey is trying to make a connection to the buyers of drugs to the death of a Mexican cop.
I continued by stating that there is also a CIA connection to Afgan opium during the Afgan war against the USSR. With a CIA connection to drugs, supporting the CIA is an indirect link to the death of a Mexican cop.
I'll elaborate by saying that if the CIA had been following the law, the Mujahideen wouldn't have beaten the Russians so quickly, and the Taliban would not have been able to give Osama a place to train his armies. 911 wouldn't have happened. If 911 hadn't have happened, poster boy Pat Tilman and many thousands of others would still be around.

Another example, as pedxing stated, is our governments dealings in the Iran Contra affair.
How can we fight a war on drugs if the very government which makes drugs illegal continues to deliver the products to our doors. Wouldn't it be much easier and less expensive to legalize and tax some of that stuff? How many lives would be saved if there was little or no underground market for a product.

Don't get me wrong, I'm America all the way. I just don't agree with some of the paths that have been taken. That happens in a democracy.
I said before, I do enjoy returning to this country. That is not the same as saying, I enjoy this country. Don't twist or remove my words.
For all that it is worth, I do enjoy this country!”

“I've had enough for tonight. Where's my party supplies. I'm a gonna go drink some tequilla and smoke some mala hierba. May even wash some tacos down with a few cervezas.
Aclamaciones!!”

“If that is your thing, enjoy it. If you want to debate complicated political issues stop getting high.”

“so i guess when the democrats were in power, no one ever complained about the government, hmmmmm? if they did, they should have been asked to leave....”

“crash - There is a difference between complaining about specific government actions and complaining as if America is evil. You have to look at the complaints in total and in context to understand why conservatives often believe liberals hate America and criticize them for the way they complain.

I think you knew that already.”

“still, as free americans, we shouldnt be shouting down dissent. not being able to voice your opinion of the government is a characteristic of of a totalitarian state. instead of calling goat an america-hater, prove to us why you think hes wrong about the cia.”

“crash - What would be wrong would be the government shouting down dissent.

A citizen shouting down another's dissention is something you should praise. Offering different points of view is something you want, right? My view is his dissention of America is characteristic of a terrorist.

That is unless you think I'm the government, then your point about being characteristic of a totalitarian state would have more validity.”

“well, im shouting down your shouting down, so there.

just be fair. you get mad when someone "tells you what you think". so dont go telling people they hate america. its a cheap debating tactic. ad hum a hymn or whatnever (yes i know its ad hominem please dont correct me). youre calling your opponent an america-hater so as to villify him. hold yourself to the same standard you hold others. the topic was drugs. get back to that.”

“crash - I'm correcting you once again.

I act mad when people tell me what I think and they are wrong. I'm right in my assessment of him.

Telling people he hates america is not a debating tactic, and it's not ad hominem either. Ad hominem is when you say their argument is not valid because of their credentials. What I was saying his argument was wrong, and that he is an america hater. I never said his argument was wrong because he is an america hater.

I do hold others to the same standard.

So are you going to address the fact that you were wrong about telling me that my words were akin to a totalitarian state? An apology would be nice. Either that or admit you think I'm the government so I can start taxing you.
last edited: 6/13/05 7:40:10 AM”

“I think we could further refine the "totalitarian" characteristics of Sarges arguements by sugesting that they may be fascist.”

“The problem with running to another country is that you have still left the problem for others to deal with. I choose to stay here and fight the bourgeoise where it is most prevelant.”

“goat - I will be sending a tax bill to your home soon.”