“Dubya wants to go to the moon!!

Another first for the Royal Bush Family!!”

“Must want all the oil there, right?”

“I'm all for sendin' Bubya to the moon!”

“The moon presents a clear and present threat to the American People. "FREE THE MOON - MARS TOO!!!!"”

“Certainly as bateaux and sarge say - what is happening in Iraq is not a major war. In WWII even there many of countries outside the key battle areas with more bloodshed and damage than we've had in Iraq. But, there is real carnage and real suffering in Iraq and for those dirctly involved it is a big deal. Still there are potential conflicts that would quickly overshadow anything that's happened in Iraq in human cost.

China is patient and growing stronger. I can't agree with MarkO that it is a house of cards. The economic dynamisn is staggering. If the next 20 years sees growth in China that is similar to the past 20 years, it will be a very different world. Nonetheless there are important tensions and divisions in China - it is by no means a monolithic society.

While I think China is content to bide its time indefinitely with respect to Taiwan, it seems unlikely to tolerate any major development towards independence by Taiwan.

China is becoming a key competitor and rival. It's apetite for natural resources is causing price shocks already and may lead to major points of friction in the future. China is also taking advantage of a distracted and disliked US to enhance its sphere of influence in Asia.

I'm not an expert on East Asia, although I know a few. My guess is that as long as China continues its rapid economic growth, it is unlikely to start a major military conflict unless pushed hard (i.e. Taiwan declaring itself an independent autonomous nation), but when it runs into limits and competition for resources get heated - things could change dramatically.”

“The economic dynamism is staggering, there is no question about that.

But China is losing the battle with the environment and with their huge population something's gotta give.

They are going to have trouble feeding themselves and the water supply is going bad.

Even with the tremendous growth, environmental-related health care costs are out-stripping the growth rate.

Those who are getting rich are doing it at the expense of the health of those less fortunate.

They are stealing from the future on an immense scale.

That is the house of cards.”

“Nigal, I work toward creating that type of society everyday.

The only type of human societies that were sustainable were societies that lived bioregionally, which means local production for local consumption. Societies on the Pacific Plate successfully existed for thousands of years by this model, and I suggest we learn something from it.

That doesn't mean we all go back to wearing loin cloths, but it tells us a lot about resource utilization.

"If America could be, once again, a nation of self-reliant farmers, craftsmen, hunters, ranchers, and artists, then the rich would have little power to dominate others. Neither to serve nor to rule: That was the American dream."-Edward Abbey”

“MarkO - I agree the ecological destruction in China is staggering. I've heard reports from people who descibe people living amidst awesome pollution.

Nonetheless, China is vast and while the quality of living may suffer for a long time, I haven't seen evidence that it will cause economic or political collapse. Who knows the growing Chinese underclass may be stuck with the results of environmental degredation much more than the elites - and this may become an important source of rebellion and social discontent.

I think house of cards is too strong a word, but I'll have to quiz some people who know a lot more than I do about this.”

“That's cool Karma but reserve the right to wear a loin cloth whenever I want.”

“And the loin cloth shall set you free....”

“And we know how quickly a house of cards can collapse. The house of cards was swept in 4 games last year.”

“Yeah, maybe too strong.

I just feel as though those people will have way too much to deal with at home to make as much trouble as the we're-at-war-with-China crowd ar predicting.

I heard the "sand box" arguement 35-40 years ago........putzmeisters!!”

“�And the loin cloth shall set you free....�

I'm out there and I'm Looooovin' every minute of it Jerry!”

“Y'all are worried about Chinese influence in Asia or the Middle East. What about our own hemisphere? The Dubya administration thinks this is just great!


SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) -- China is waging an aggressive campaign of seduction in the Caribbean, wooing countries away from relationships with rival Taiwan, opening markets for its expanding economy, promising to send tourists, and shipping police to Haiti in the first communist deployment in the Western Hemisphere.

And the United States, China's Cold War enemy, is benignly watching the Asian economic superpower move into its backyard.

For decades China and Taiwan used dollar diplomacy to win over small Caribbean nations where small projects building roads, bridges, wells and fisheries go a long way.

But Beijing's growing economic clout is tipping the scales in the region.

Caribbean trade with China reached $2 billion last year, a 42.5 percent increase from 2003, the Chinese news agency Xinhua reported.

The United States has applauded China's economic offensive, seeing it as a herald of political reform.

"China's intensified interest in the Western Hemisphere does not imply a lack of focus by the United States," Roger Noriega, the U.S. assistant secretary for Western Hemisphere affairs, said in a recent letter to the editor of New Jersey's Newark Star Ledger.

"The United States has long stood for expansion of global trade and consolidating democracy."

more...”

“The Chinese ruling party could be cementing it's own downfall. The growth in wealth has created a rapidly expanding middle class. These in turn are having children and teaching new values to the next generation. The reforms that have come in recent years has created a wealthy and powerful group of people who for the moment stick with the party line. Their new apartments, cars and flat screen TVs start getting threatened and you could see another revolution in China, a democratic one this time.

Thos students who protested in Tianamen square and their generation, are now becoming more influential in the new China. Their influence will only increase.”

“

Military Is Ill-Prepared For Other Conflicts

By Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, March 19, 2007; A01

Four years after the invasion of Iraq, the high and growing demand for U.S. troops there and in Afghanistan has left ground forces in the United States short of the training, personnel and equipment that would be vital to fight a major ground conflict elsewhere, senior U.S. military and government officials acknowledge.

More troubling, the officials say, is that it will take years for the Army and Marine Corps to recover from what some officials privately have called a "death spiral," in which the ever more rapid pace of war-zone rotations has consumed 40 percent of their total gear, wearied troops and left no time to train to fight anything other than the insurgencies now at hand.

The risk to the nation is serious and deepening, senior officers warn, because the U.S. military now lacks a large strategic reserve of ground troops ready to respond quickly and decisively to potential foreign crises, whether the internal collapse of Pakistan, a conflict with Iran or an outbreak of war on the Korean Peninsula. Air and naval power can only go so far in compensating for infantry, artillery and other land forces, they said. An immediate concern is that critical Army overseas equipment stocks for use in another conflict have been depleted by the recent troop increases in Iraq, they said.

"We have a strategy right now that is outstripping the means to execute it," Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, Army chief of staff, testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee on Thursday.

The Army's vice chief of staff, Gen. Richard A. Cody, described as "stark" the level of readiness of Army units in the United States, which would be called on if another war breaks out. "The readiness continues to decline of our next-to-deploy forces," Cody told the House Armed Services Committee's readiness panel last week. "And those forces, by the way, are . . . also your strategic reserve."

Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was asked last month by a House panel whether he was comfortable with the preparedness of Army units in the United States. He stated simply: "No . . . I am not comfortable."

"You take a lap around the globe -- you could start any place: Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Venezuela, Colombia, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, North Korea, back around to Pakistan, and I probably missed a few. There's no dearth of challenges out there for our armed forces," Pace warned in his testimony. He said the nation faces increased risk because of shortfalls in troops, equipment and training.

In earlier House testimony, Pace said the military, using the Navy, Air Force and reserves, could handle one of three major contingencies, involving North Korea or -- although he did not name them -- Iran or China. But, he said, "It will not be as precise as we would like, nor will it be on the timelines that we would prefer, because we would then, while engaged in one fight, have to reallocate resources and remobilize the Guard and reserves."

Pace said the unexpected demand for more troops in Iraq -- from the 10 brigades that commanders projected last year they would need by the end of 2006, to the 20 brigades scheduled to be there by June -- prompted him to recommend permanently adding 92,000 troops to the Army and Marine Corps, saying it would "make a large difference in our ability to be prepared for unforeseen contingencies."

Indeed, the recent increase of more than 32,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan has pushed already severe readiness problems to what some officials and lawmakers consider a crisis point. Schoomaker said last week that sustaining the troop increase in Iraq beyond August would be "a challenge." The Marines' commandant, Gen. James T. Conway, expressed concern to defense reporters last week that it would bring the Marine Corps "right on the margin" of breaking the minimum time at home for Marines between combat tours. U.S. commanders in Iraq say they may need to keep troop levels elevated into early 2008.

The troop increase has also created an acute shortfall in the Army's equipment stored overseas -- known as "pre-positioned stock" -- which would be critical to outfit U.S. combat forces quickly should another conflict erupt, officials said.

The Army should have five full combat brigades' worth of such equipment: two stocks in Kuwait, one in South Korea, and two aboard ships in Guam and at the Diego Garcia base in the Indian Ocean. But the Army had to empty the afloat stocks to support the troop increase in Iraq, and the Kuwait stocks are being used as units to rotate in and out of the country. Only the South Korea stock is close to complete, according to military and government officials.

"Without the pre-positioned stocks, we would not have been able to meet the surge requirement," Schoomaker said. "It will take us two years to rebuild those stocks. That's part of my concern about our strategic depth."

"The status of our Army prepositioned stock . . . is bothersome," Cody said last week.

Democratic and Republican lawmakers who received classified briefings last week on the stocks and overall Army readiness voiced alarm. "I'm deeply concerned," said Rep. Ike Skelton (D-Mo.), chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, who last week asked the Congressional Budget Office and the Government Accountability Office to investigate the stocks "as a matter of vital importance to national defense."

Rep. Solomon P. Ortiz (D-Texas), chairman of the committee's readiness panel, said: "I have seen the classified-only readiness reports. And based on those reports, I believe that we as a nation are at risk of major failure, should our Army be called to deploy to an emerging threat."

Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii), who attended the briefing, said, "We are at a crisis point across the board." And Rep. Walter B. Jones (R-N.C.), said, "This nation has got to replenish and fix what is soon going to be broken."

Equipment is also lacking among Army units in the United States, the vast majority of which are rated "not ready" by the Army, based on measures of available gear, training and personnel, according to senior military officers and government officials. Active-duty Army combat brigades in the United States face shortages of heavy, medium and light tactical vehicles such as Humvees; radios; night-vision goggles; and some weapons, Cody said.

The shortages have deepened as scarce equipment and personnel are funneled to those units next in line to deploy overseas, creating ever bigger holes in the units that will leave later. "It's like a hurricane drawing everything into the center of the eye," said a senior Army officer, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.

"For the National Guard, those shortages are even more," Cody said. Army National Guard figures show that 88 percent of its units are "not ready." Yet National Guard combat brigades -- four of which have been notified already -- will be increasingly called upon next year to relieve the active-duty troops in Iraq, with the Army Guard and Reserve expected to grow from 20 percent of the force to 30 percent, officials said.

And unlike before the Iraq war, the Army does not currently have a brigade ready to deploy within hours to an overseas hot spot, officials say.

The increasingly rapid tempo of rotations into Iraq and Afghanistan is also constraining the length and focus of training as active-duty Army combat brigades and Marine combat battalions spend at least as much time in the war zone as at home. As a result, all the training is geared toward counterinsurgencies, while skills important for other major combat operations atrophy.

The Marine Corps is not training for amphibious, mountain or jungle warfare, nor conducting large-scale live-fire maneuvers, Conway said. "We've got a little bit of a blindside there," he said. The Marine Corps and Army both lack sufficient manpower to give troops a break from the combat zone long enough to complete their full spectrum of training, senior officials said.

"We're only able to train them . . . for counterinsurgency operations," Cody told the House panel last week. "They're not trained to full-spectrum operations."

Under current Army and Marine Corps plans, it will take two to three years after the Iraq war ends and about $17 billion a year to restore their equipment levels. It will take five years and at least $75 billion for the Army to increase its active-duty ranks to 547,000 soldiers, up from the current 509,000, and for the Marine Corps to increase its numbers to 202,000, up from 180,000.

"Boots on the ground matter," the senior Army officer said. "If they are tied down, your ability to terminate a conflict on your terms, earlier, may not be there."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/18/AR2007031801534.html”

“Thanks for destroying the military it took Clinton & William Cohen years to rebuild.”

“Now, I'll not argue that the military is a mess right now, but Clinton DID NOT build it up. He cut military spending by loads. Reagan built the military up. Are you joking?”

““Thanks for destroying the military it took Clinton & William Cohen years to rebuild.”

That's funny!!! LOL!!!

Are you ignorant or trolling?”

“I think he's just making a joke. Good one!”

“Repeating the same lie doesn't make it true.

The Clinton administration actually spent more money on defense than had the outgoing administration of the first President Bush. The smaller outlays during the first Bush administration were developed and approved by Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin Powell, who were then serving as secretary of defense and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff respectively.

Clinton's last secretary of defense, William Cohen, turned over to Rumsfeld a defense budget that was higher in real terms than what James Schlesinger had bequeathed to Rumsfeld when he took over the Pentagon for the first time in 1975 at the height of the Cold War.
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=5962”

“Vile baby...LOL....yeah I guess CFR can write what they want...but lets go with EXPERIENCE of the people who were there.

I had classmates flying the NO Fly zone without full armament. There were stories about limited flight hours for our front line pilots. Then there is the Brookings Inst study

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2002/0101terrorism_ohanlon.aspx

The Clinton administration misused military power during its first year in office in Somalia and then in Haiti; the results were needless American deaths in the first instance and a poorly planned, aborted mission in the second. Morale was low, and recruitment and retention posed problems. Cuts in defense spending to help balance the federal budget went too far in some cases—until the Republican Congress stepped in and insisted on adding money for the Pentagon. And the Clinton administration and the uniformed military struggled with how to sustain numerous small missions overseas without overusing certain parts of the armed forces.

And we SEE OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS VIle baby it was the REPUBLICAN CONGRESS that saved the military....NOT the Clintonistas..(LOL) Vile baby gets spanked again.
See Vile one thing you don't understand in your BUND meetings is that the Congress (thats the guys in the big WHITE building down the mall from the White House. That MAKE THE BUDGET. They also spend etc and approve. Unlike your preferred government (I am guessing Herr Schicklegruber) the President just has a veto power.

Sadly it is apparent that your civics education was pretty much wasted.”

“When I got out of the mountain infantry in '91, A Company and Headquarters Company had ONE of these SUSV's between them.



When I went back to Ethan Allen Firing Range for a visit in '99 there were twenty SUSV's parked there, enough to move all of A Company.

The formerly primitive Biathalon Range had become a modern facility with automatic targets and a paved track for summer ski-skates workouts.

The Mountain Warfare School had more buildings than before.

Someone had poured money into the place and it wasn't Ronnie Reagan.

I can't say anything about the rest of the armed forces, but Ethan Allen had certainly not been neglected or "torn down".”

“The Clinton administration actually spent more money on defense than had the outgoing administration of the first President Bush.

Of course, more women sued him than sued Bush. He had too.

"More money" from the 80s to the 90s doesn't mean improved military. Improved military from a budgetary standpoint comes from spending more money in real dollars in more useful ways.

Not to mention how much he completely devastated our MI. I was predicting in mid 2000s, before the election, that we would be soon attacked due to his disregard of our intelligence agencies (as I argued that Gore wouldn't have the balls to respond appropriately). Sho'nuff, 11 months after my prediction, it happened. Thanks a lot Klinton.”

“






Hey V-man ... just as a little reminder ... Clinton ran on a platform of reduced military spending.”

“I love it. The military has always poor mouthed themselves. (someone saying we can't fight a two front war anymore has been said every year for as long as I can remember). What's great now is that we have the Washington Post out there pushing for more military spending.”

“4 1/2 % of the earths population...........forget it.”

“Pakistan needs some more money, Hawks”

“Sorry but I would rather spend on Defense then the Give AWAY Free Money programs that occupy the significant majority of the Budget.”

“What's great now is that we have the Washington Post out there pushing for more military spending.”
hyway
9:45:12 AM
11/13/07

Got a link for that Editorial?”

“Oy vey

Nice quote abuse, XL. You forgot the first sentence of the paragraph you cherry picked:

"There were some setbacks."

Anyone bother to read the full article? Let me quote the final paragraph. In its entirety:

Of course, the main credit for the quality of America's military must go to its own personnel. But the victory in Afghanistan, coming on the heels of the successful action against Serbia in 1999, shows that the Clinton administration maintained a strong and focused military able to carry out a post-cold war mission.”

“Consumerocracies can only buy things. Lobbyists are the real professional consumers and can buy anything or everything. You are 4 sale and all that your feel is yours is 4 sale-I think it's time to chase my tail.”

“I always(mostly) enjoy your comments, Cliff.

Chasing tail sounds like a fun idea!”

“I unclicked his little plussign to see what all the fuss was about, and his paranoia is still the center of his life. Real enjoyable. ... more like real unbearable. Some people thrive on hate and negativity, so much so that it amazes me how "positive" posts (by me and others) are construed as negative on here because we don't conform to the hatred. You guys are sad.”

“Introspection, it's a good thing.”

“You need better glass cleaner so you can clean yourself off of your mirrors.”

“Sorry but I would rather spend on Defense then the Give AWAY Free Money programs that occupy the significant majority of the Budget.”
XL400236
8:13:34 AM
11/13/07

Exactly! Let's spend every penny on Iraq. Forget about anything that is going on in our OWN country. I am tired of taking care of our own citizens anyway. If they cannot hack it, #&%!$ em!”

“"hatred"???

I missed that some where and I don't have anyone on ignore.

Share your ignorance, Sarge.”

“That's right WK, and fixing bridges in the U.S. can wait, there are lots of bridges to burn yet in the Middle East.”

“No one said you did have anybody on ignore, MarkO, (ignorant statement #1), and the fact that you "missed that" shows (ignorant statement #2). Glad you admit it.”

“(Ignorance statement #3) Sausage from Marge being ignored”

“LOL Sarge these are from people who probably giggled over Kevin Cosgrove's final cell phone call.”

“You got internet privileges back in your padded cell?

FUEGO FUKKUP is back, y'all.”

“LOL..no Marky mark....been out working (its what you do to earn money for the house).”

“Not to worry, kids...we're spending our way to victory!

Hidden costs almost double war cost

The total economic impact of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is estimated to reach $1.6 trillion by 2009, a congressional committee said in a report released Tuesday. The figure -- which includes the cost of borrowing to pay for the war, higher oil prices, and the cost of caring for wounded veterans -- is nearly double the $804 billion in direct war costs already requested.”

“Yea well if Kleenton would have destroyed the military, it would have cost a fraction of this.”

“What's the cost of inaction? Anybody got that figure on them?

http://www.jibjab.com/view/12137”

“And the "intangibles".... ???

How many Iraq Veterans are going to wind up on the street?  ”

“Bush vetoes domestic spending bill on health, education and jobs

President George W. Bush vetoed a major spending measure on Tuesday that would have funded education, health care and job training programs, saying it contained too many special projects, even as he signed a $459 billion bill to increase the Pentagon's non-war funding.

The veto, of a measure providing $150.7 billion in discretionary spending for the Departments of Education, Labor, and Health and Human Services, was announced as Bush was en route to southern Indiana to deliver an economics speech at which, his spokeswoman said, he would criticize Congress for its "wasteful spending."”