Talk about a military mess ...

“http://www.washtimes.com/specialreport/20050626-122138-1088r.htm

China is building its military forces faster than U.S. intelligence and military analysts expected, prompting fears that Beijing will attack Taiwan in the next two years, according to Pentagon officials.
U.S. defense and intelligence officials say all the signs point in one troubling direction: Beijing then will be forced to go to war with the United States, which has vowed to defend Taiwan against a Chinese attack.”

“Why start another thread now? You haven't spent enough time reading at all the info I posted for your education on the other thread. You wanted documentation, I was there to oblige.”

“SH - Did you not read the response I gave you. I said I will respond tonight. I am eating my lunch and am between daily events. I don't have time to read the exhaustive list of sources you provided.

I thought you had posted them in a civil manner so I was willing to give you the courtesy of reading that, once again, exhaustive list of sources, to oblige. Don't now turn into an ass hole.”

“china scares me. way more than iraq ever did (actually iraq never scared me) and just as much if not more than n. korea does. i read somewhere theyve got the capability to take out all our big ships if they got a wild hair up their ass. not working on, have.”

“yeah, and Bush has us bogged down in Iraq. Thanks, Bush! Way to go! What a good commander in chief he is, he really knows what he is doing. Such a grip on reality he has.”

“ENS - So it's better for our troops to be here in America than over near China in case something happens?

Do you know how much effort it is to transport troops over great distances?”

“i think ens's point is that we've got so many resources commited to iraq, that we're too depleted for a military confrontation with china.

besides, i dont think iraq is any closer to china is than the west coast is”

“we're in Iraq for the long haul.”

“We don't need any land forces to defend Taiwan.

The Chinese aren't going to send their shiny new fleet up against a carrier battle group, that they have no chance of doing much damage to, much less defeating, so that it can be destroyed.”

“Make the UN sort it out.”

“Give it 10, 20, but no more than 25 years. The Chinese will bide their time but they will have Taiwan. They're just waiting for our final capitulation. We probably won't even care when it happens and maybe we shouldn't. We'll be caught up in our own problems: our manufacturing capability, therefore our economy, ruined by cheap slave made imports and the greed of multinational corporations and international financiers, our currency destroyed by government induced inflation, our chidren and grandchildren fighting for the scraps, our military forces spent on useless wars where we made more ememies than allies, with a Congress full of thieves and liars, and a leader as craven as Caligula.

Think 4th and 5th century Roman Empire and you get the picture.

"Mission Accomplished"
last edited: 6/26/05 7:09:52 PM”

“This is the real thing guys. Welcome to the arms race for the next hundred years. We didn't pick this fight but we are paying for both sides. Every time you buy junk at Walmart made in China you fuel the fire. I'm just as guilty as the rest. We are sleeping with the enemy and paving the way for our own demise. Buying goods made here now not only saves jobs but is our very survival. The Chinese would not bat an eye losing 100,000,000 soldiers to gain a bigger chunck of the world. The sooner this fight comes unfortunately the better. There weapons just like their products are getting better and better while ours get older and more expensive. They have a long way to go as far as projection power overseas, but in Asia they will be able to march freely. It is time for leadership, I truly hope a man such as John McCain is elected as our next president. The big boys are coming out to play and amateur hour is over. The bickering we have been doing amoungst ourselves the last few years has to stop. It is time to focus on the enemy. The enemy is red China.”

“I love it when people who don't like Bush want McCain to be President. Same politics, different face. That man has all the libs and moderates fooled and he isn't even trying to fool them. Please do vote for McCain if he runs, I will.”

“Well, this is all about the race for resources, as China is the one country capable of challenging US hegemony and will do so as it continues to grow.

China will probably overtake the current per capita US income in just over 25 years, according to the latest analysis by the Earth Policy Institute (EPI).

Don't expect any diplomatic solutions. We can't negotiate ourselves out of the fact that we've reached Peak Oil, yet we're still living my the mantra of growth ad infitinum. China, India and the US are all fighting for the same thing.”

“I agree with the cajun.
Wal*Mart is bad, mmmKay!”

“This is all about Sun Tzu. I'd like to agree with you Bison. I want to badly. I think there is more going on here than meets the eye. Sun Tzu.”

“Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regimen t, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

Forestall your opponent by seizing what he holds dear, and subtly contrive to time his arrival on the ground.”

“Bison, I see vast differences between McCain and Bush. I've supported McCain since before the 2000 campaign. I guess I am a moderate, I'm no longer the right winger I used to be and I don't feel comfortable on the far left either. John McCain gives me room to keep my status as a lifelong Republican. Whatever party rises to the occasion, we need leadership now. It starts with the congress, I think a great awakening is running through the country. We can use the weapon of our pocktbook and end the threat now without a shot. Even in the current course, I think the bullets are up to 10 years away. We need a congress and a president to lead us to victory in this economic war before the bullets start to fly in a shooting war.”

“We are so dilusioned that we think the current scuffle in Iraq is a war. Iraq was always a paper tiger. We are fighting street gangs not an army. We are too far removed from WWI and WWII to remember what war is like. In Iraq we lose 2 or 3 people a day. In war you can lose whole battalions and brigades in a day. The Chinese could lose 10 to 1 and they would still smile.”

“bateauxdriver, 3 words:

head, hit, nail”

“shouldnt that be hit, nail, head?”

“crash - why?

I agree with bateaux - Iraq is nothing ... I know ... I know ... tell that to the moms and dads whose kids ... blah blah ... I understand that. But it's not a war.

It's a sandbox. Hear that before?”

“So they can lose a lot of people? To attack Taiwan they have to get those people across the strait. They have no real ability to do that as long as we have ships positioned there, so who cares how many soldiers they have?”

“I'd bet China's ambitions are much greater than Taiwan.

"Don't look at the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee”

“Ok, where then? Even if they took SE Asia and Korea, where else do they go militarily? They're hemmed in by Russia and India, two countries that can also send as many men to slaughter as is necessary.”

““So they can lose a lot of people? To attack Taiwan they have to get those people across the strait. They have no real ability to do that as long as we have ships positioned there, so who cares how many soldiers they have?”
Bison
10:11:37 PM
6/26/05

Ever seen those ants on National Geographic that make bridges of themselves to cross water and gaps? Not saying the Chinese can do that, but seriously, look at the odds here. China with it's biggest resource, people vs. all of our technology and (I am pulling this number right outta my rectum) an army of what, 1 million or so? No idea what our actual capabilities are, but you give 200 million Chinamen spoons and our army is toast. I don;t care if we have one guy firing 1000 rounds a minute, China can spare 1001... Oh, nd God forbid if teleportation ever became a reality. China would take over the world in about 5 minutes.”

“Ok, where then?

Inner space and outer space.

The 2 best fighting positions are infiltration of your enemy, and at the top of a very big hill. I think they're going for both positions at once.

Numbers aren't as important here as strategy. Look at 9/11. 20 took out 3,000. That was child's play. There are no rules in war, and we've been at war with China for a long time. I'm just afraid not enough people know it.”

“I think the strait is a little large to be surmounted by a human bridge. :P”

“Bison they have plenty of time to build that bridge. Our greatest weapon has always been our industrial base. It afforded us the means and manufacturing to afford the latest and greatest weapons, food, medical aid, etc. in quantity to our soldiers. A great scene from Patton is where Rommel is discussing gasoline shortages in North Africa, he takes a bite of a captured cake mailed from hometown America. He points to the cake and says it is fresh. The other generals take a bite but miss Rommels point.

The Chinese are building their industrial base with our dollars.”

“And buying oil companies with our dollars too. Nevertheless, even with an army as large as theirs they can't compete militarily with us right now. But they don't intend to. (They don't have all the technology in place just yet.) AND as long as the Communist Party is in control of the masses in China, the party leaders will wait until we no longer care what happens to the Taiwanese. The people in the US will no longer care when we are spending all our capital trying to keep own heads above water. That time is not as far away as you think.

The only way China would move towards Taiwan in the next five years is if internal strife
is bad enough to warrant an external distraction. There is much turmoil in China. Their economy is growing and large but wholesale unemployment and poverty exist in the countryside. If things get bad the Chinese government will start rattling sabers about Taiwan to take the sheeples minds off their problems. Same thing that happens here and there. Governments have been doing it for thousands of years.”

“Troops on the ground would not be required to stop a China invasion of Taiwan.

Planes and missiles would do it.

China would likely attempt some sort of preemptive EMP attack against US forces first and then it would get mighty interesting.
last edited: 6/27/05 7:31:27 AM”

“When I finished reading the D-Day and Citizen Soldiers books by Ambrose my first thought was, "Oh $hit, we don't have that kind of industry anymore!"”

“"A great scene from Patton is where Rommel is discussing gasoline shortages in North Africa, he takes a bite of a captured cake mailed from hometown America. He points to the cake and says it is fresh. The other generals take a bite but miss Rommels point."

Hey bateaux, that was Battle Of The Bulge, 1965.
The character was Col. Martin Hessler/Robert Shaw.”

“China is an environmental disaster in the making.

They've lost 1/5 of their arable land to desertification, mostly from destructive land use.

China will have problems feeding their people, if they are not already there.

China is a house of cards headed for collapse.

Poor Taiwan has been kicked around for years, like Korea.

It was a colony of Japan for some time and until 1945.

In 1949 the Fascist Chinese/Koumintang of Chang Kai Shek moved in on Taiwan and brutally suppressed the natives, who will tell you that they are not Chinese.

They speak a different language.

It wasn't until the last couple of decades that Taiwan has had anything even remotely resembling democracy.
last edited: 6/27/05 7:41:41 AM”

“China is an environmental disaster in the making.

They've lost 1/5 of their arable land to desertification, mostly from destructive land use.

China will have problems feeding their people, if they are not already there.

China is a house of cards headed for collapse.

For all of the reasons you cite above, China would start rallying the masses to invade Taiwan. So the closer that "house of cards" as you call it, edges towards collapse, the sooner the sabers will start rattling.”

“whether or not we go to war with China is still a question, but one thing will be for sure. For years to come, our Army and Marines will be led, trained and staffed by men who have had combat experience. So if it comes to war I think we will be better off BECAUSE we played in the sandbox of Iraq. Too bad or Navy and Air Force will never be challenged by any forces of significance before another big war comes.

All of you people who are saying our Navy can handle it have forgotten Pearl Harbor. All of our premier warships of the time, the battlewagons, were sunk. Only our unproven carriers were left intact and we were lucky they weren't hit too.

Its quite possible that we could lose an entire fleet. Sure we could put another one in its place, but by then China would be on the ground in Taiwan and we would have a land war.

But if China took out an entire fleet I don't think we would have to worry about Taiwan any more. If, and its a big if, we could stop ourselves from retaliating with strategic nuclear weapons, we would be on the ground in China and Taiwan be damned.”

“I wonder what an all out boycot of all Chinese products to the USA would do?”

“"So if it comes to war I think we will be better off BECAUSE we played in the sandbox of Iraq."

That's what the war mongers were saying 35-40 years ago about Vietnam.

"Sure, the war may be wrong(maybe my ass!) but at least we will have men with combat experience when it come to fighting the Russians."

I will defend my country, but I won't go to China to do it.
The last sentence is in "figure of speech font".

Just to play devil's advocate:
Why would the U.S. fight to keep the Chinese from taking over Taiwan?
Is it a point of "honor"?
Is it because our leaders said or implied that they would?
How could our leaders justify the slaughter of human beings and the spending of resources over a relatively unimportant(to the U.S.) place?”

“Nigal, a lot of U.S. businesses would lose.

What about all those nice sleeping bags from China?”

“Inner space and Sun Tzu:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050627-010217-7779r.htm

6-27-05
Beijing devoted to weakening 'enemy' U.S., defector says
last edited: 6/27/05 8:39:01 AM”

“Outer space and Sun Tzu:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/chinamod.htm

9-1999
Major Stokes ventures into facets of PLA modernization that are often ignored. Backed by extensive documentation, he argues that the revolutionary modernization of the PRC's telecommunications infrastructure, a robust space-, air-, and ground-based sensor network, and prioritization of electronic attack systems could enable the PLA to gain information dominance in future armed conflicts around its periphery. Information dominance would be further boosted by China's traditional emphasis on information denial and deception.


In discussing the most likely scenario for PLA military action, Major Stokes postulates that information dominance--supported by a new generation of increasingly accurate and lethal theater missiles--could give the PLA a decisive edge in a future conflict in the Taiwan Strait. Highly accurate conventional theater missiles would play an especially critical role in rapid establishment of air superiority by suppressing airbases and neutralizing air defenses. Furthermore, the author argues that the PLA is striving to develop the capacity to complicate U.S. intervention in a Taiwan crisis.


In his appendices, the author provides an initial glimpse into PLA military space and directed energy weapons development. With extensive foreign technical assistance, China is investing in largely dual-use space-based systems that could provide the PLA with a valued-added boost to its overall military capabilities. In addition, China's development of "new concept" directed energy weapons--including high powered microwave and high powered lasers--may become a reality in the not-too-distant future.”

“I feel for the Taiwanese, who are not Chinese by the way.

The Chinese arguement for taking "back" Taiwan is weak since it is a different culture, etc., but how could the U.S. justify the costs of "defending" Taiwan?”

““Nigal, a lot of U.S. businesses would lose.

What about all those nice sleeping bags from China?”

We could survive though and much better than the Chinese would. I would much rather take a financial hit than face the alternative of being vaporized by Chinese missiles.”

“Financially, it might even help overall - considering U.S. companies would be able to sell more / i.e.-> make more.”

“Hey, I'm all for reopening U.S. factories and swelling the ranks of labor unions.

I don't think China would chuck a missle at Ohio.....D.C. maybe.

But seriously, this country has way more missles.
Mutually
Assured
Destruction”

“Hey bateaux, that was Battle Of The Bulge, 1965.
The character was Col. Martin Hessler/Robert Shaw.”

So I messed up on my old war movies and Nazi characters. The point is that the US had the might to mail fresh cake to frontline soldiers. Our industrial base gives us the ability to deliver the goods not smart weapons. The smart weapons are a product of that industrial base as well. As our industrial base dwendles so will our military might.”

““Hey, I'm all for reopening U.S. factories and swelling the ranks of labor unions.”

Unoins? Shlt dude, just give the factories to the Chinese now.

I don't think China would chuck a missle at Ohio.....D.C. maybe.”

When you live 30 miles from the largest AF base in the nation, you can be pretty sure you’ll be one of the first ones hit.”

“Sleeping bags will once again be made in the US or you won't be able to afford them!

When the PPB for oil hits $70, thing really start to get interesting. When it hits $80 PB, you have real chaos on your hands.

It takes oil to produce and ship all of this crap we ship all over the planet. Might I recommend local production and local consumption as an alternative?”

“Imagine Karma, a local economey again. Why every town might go back to having a local butcher, baker and candlestick maker. There was a time when people made a lot of their own stuff too. When oil hits $80 a barrel and we're all sitting at home as the SUV has been parked behind the house we'll have plenty of time.”

“oil companies don't want to uncap the existing oil wells. They had rather drill and find new ones”