Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, and God

“alright, so the dont and the didnt cancel each other out. youre left with the New Testament doesn't say that you have to be a Christian to get to Heaven - crash

Um, no. The 2 don't cancel each other out. It's not math, it's English.

what about the earth. do you believe its 5 billion or 5 thousand years old?

Closer to 5 billion.

what about man (poof) from dust or man from ape-like creatures?

A combination of both. Actually I'd say "dust and man from man-like creatures."

I'd say that in the same way scientists say "man comes from primordial goo", "man comes from simple elements", and "man comes from man/ape like creatures".”

“sarge, youve had the same insight that ive had about our origins, i.e. genesis and science dont disagree. genesis says man was created from the dust, and, well, so does science, in a roundabout way.

that is what youre saying, right? am i also correct in assuming that you believe god takes an active part in our evolution? that, in other words, evolution is a tool of god. i believe that is very possible”

“Um, no. The 2 don't cancel each other out. It's not math, it's English

actually, negatives when spoken/written do cancel each other out. for example, if you said "i dont want to not go", it is also true that you want to go. if you say "i dont believe i didnt say", then you do believe you did say. what you were trying to get across and what you actually wrote must not match up.”

“one more

if "genesis and science dont disagree"

then "genesis and science agree"

agree?”

“i would just like apologize to everyone in advance for starting a semtantics debate with sarge. see you in 500 posts”

“someone on this thread or the other holy fuego thread brought up this topic. whether or not it is a religion depends on definition. if a religion is:

A. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

then, no, buddhism is not a religion

B. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

then, yes, buddhism is a religion

either way, its a belief system, and its what you believe thats important, not what you label what you believe (but i still wanna know what denomination church you attend, sarge, because im not as interested in debate as i am in sharing pov's)

definitions courtesy of dictionary.com
last edited: 7/20/05 11:02:09 PM”

“sarge, youve had the same insight that ive had about our origins, i.e. genesis and science dont disagree. genesis says man was created from the dust, and, well, so does science, in a roundabout way. that is what youre saying, right? - c!b!

Yes.

then "genesis and science agree" agree?

Yes.

but i still wanna know what denomination church you attend, sarge, because im not as interested in debate as i am in sharing pov's

Which is exactly why telling you my denomination would be counter-productive. My denomination is not my POV. I sometimes disagree with my denomination (ie - age of the earth, etc.). Therefore, telling you my denomination would give you no more information than before other than gossip.

Also, I agree with your Buddhism conclusion. The reason I chose the "belief system" option is because it was originally created to specifically counter religion. There was nothing religious about it (no more so than yoga or banging on drums) until it changed over hundreds of years. It's technically currently in an unpure form made to resemble a religion, much like many non-religious "ways of doing things" today. To some people "shopping" or "drinking beer" are religions with that definition.
last edited: 7/21/05 5:32:16 AM”

“"And once you take that leap my friend . . .you are no different than any Jew, any Muslim, and Buddist or any Scientologist. YOu believe in the unknowable . . .and are simply hoping that your brand of mythology is the right one"

Christians beleive we are different because of an empty grave.”

“c!b! - Upon reading my last response to you, let me clarify something about the "denomination" thing ...

I had my "religion" before attending church. I didn't come to be a Christian through a church or through preaching. I believed the Bible without a denomination telling me what it says. I only picked the denomination that I'm in after I found one that met certain criteria. One of those being they were not hypocritical in their faith. Another being they understand that their sin can cause them to wrongly interpret the Bible, so they don't claim to have PERFECT understanding of God's Word, but they try very had. Third, they most closely matched MY understanding of the Bible.

That being said, if you really want to understand my POV, the BEST way to do that is to read the Bible in context.

I'm trying to help you understand by being honest with you. My denomination will not tell you my POV. I hope you can understand that.

dayhiker - Well said.”

“sarge, i couldve sworn i saw you defending creationism in an earlier thread. apparently its natural selection (things happening randomly and quite by accident with no conscious control) youre opposed to and not evolution per se

im leaning quite heavily that way. i also believe that if there was not Something or Someone out there, the concept of right and wrong would be meaningless, and i just cannot accept that”

“crash - You're correct in your assessment of my evolution beliefs.”

“sarge, id be interested in hearing more of your beliefs. too often, you just wait for someone to say something you disagree with, then argue with them, instead of offering what you do believe. this often leads to misunderstanings and my surprise at your latest revelation, which i still had to tease out. i wish i didnt have to go to work right now. see you in 9 hours”

“See you. Feel free to email too. I'd rather discuss detailed personal convictions via email.”

“And once you take that leap my friend . . .you are no different than any Jew, any Muslim, and Buddist or any Scientologist. YOu believe in the unknowable . . .and are simply hoping that your brand of mythology is the right one"

Christians beleive we are different because of an empty grave.”
dayhiker
6:47:56 AM

i believe in the greek gods b/c there really was a trojan war and a great flood.

meteorologists (i.e., science) still gets the weather forecast wrong on a daily basis.

what more proof could you want that zeus controls the weather?

it's too bad that most of you won't be joining me in the happy hunting grounds.”

“sacco - Has anybody claimed to witness Zeus controlling the weather?

No?

Oh, then stop using bogus analogies.”

“And I believe there was an Achilles because I saw Brad Pitt play him in the movies. Actually, I didn't bother seeing the movie, but I read the book and it was better.

Thanks to TT, I had no idea until aobut 18 months ago that there was so much disdain for Christians in the US by people in the US. I guess it's the part of the country I live in that kept me ignorant of that fact. In this time I've noticed that the force with which the derision and mockery comes is proportional to how convinced that there is nothing out there. Dust in the Wind, if you will. These folks are taking just as big a leap of faith by saying nothing is out there, yet mock others who take a different leap of faith.”

“These folks are taking just as big a leap of faith by saying nothing is out there - dayhiker

If you really press the top physisists, most DO admit there must be a creator. Even Hawkings has gone back and forth on this. I suppose the First Law of Thermodynamics gets them ...”

“There is an astrophysist that's also an Anglican Bishop that writes on the relationship between science and religion. I can't recall his name. I tried reading some of it and decided I'd had enough of the out there stuff in grad school, kissed my kids, and decided that was evidence enough for me.”

“sarge, of course people in other times claimed to witness zeus controlling weather.
not very many eyewitness reports as of late - but that's par for all religions, eh?

and please do not insult my religion sarge by calling it a bogus analogy. it is just as valid as yours.

DH, i agree with you as far as the leap of faith. with me it's not disdain for all christians, but as i said earlier:

my bottom line is truthful and direct.
no matter what else you may like to say or how you'd like to word it -the fact is, that you feel that anyone who doesn't conform to your (christian) beliefs will burn in hell.

us non-devout christains may pick on christians or even insult their intelligence, but i would never be so presumptious as to tell them where their souls will spend eternity.

and for the record, i don't think christians are any less intelligent. i just figure if they're gonna judge my soul's destination, then i can at least pick on them about it.”

especially when you're basing your judgement on a strict interpretaion of a a book written by MEN, 2000+/- years ago, translated and transcribed for 1500+/- years by other MEN - BY HAND.

When God give's his word to me I'll listen, in the mean time i'll consider Man's word (the bible) to have some decent ideas and guidlines about how to treat my fellow man, but that's all and i'll hestitate to ever judge anyone else's beliefs (except for those that judge me unfairly)”

“sarge, of course people in other times claimed to witness zeus controlling weather.
not very many eyewitness reports as of late - but that's par for all religions, eh?

Could you name one?

and please do not insult my religion sarge by calling it a bogus analogy. it is just as valid as yours.

your religion is an analogy?”

“I say believe what you want to believe and don’t worry about the guy next to you. That’s his problem. My biggest problem with religion (I’m also considering atheism as a religion) is when people try to push their belief system on others. Only a small percentage actually does this, but it annoys the crap out of me.”

“sacco - What Christian judged your fate? Did you read my previous posts about this subject? As a Christian, I would never try to "judge" your fate.

The thief on the cross was the biblical reference I gave you. You don't know a man's destination. Only God does.”

“zac - I agree. The door to door crowd especially gets on my nerves. I'm not a fan of the street yellers either.”

“lumberzac - I definitely agree that Pushing religion on people is annoying.

That being said, I also believe that just the mere mention of religion or a Christian belief is OFTEN interpreted as "pushing religion" on them. Being faced with one's conscious often creates extreme emotions.

Also, many try to "push" Christianity for the same reason that you would yell "watch out!" if you saw somebody heading for a cliff. Whether or not they are right, their intention is to prevent you from falling over the cliff. It's usually done out of love for you. Still annoying to the non-believer, I know ... but what kind of person would they be if they didn't yell "watch out!"?”

“Don't even get me started on the door to door crowd. I have a few of those in my extended family.”

“sacco - where you wind up, or think that you'll wind up in between you and whomever you do or don't believe it. I'm out of the picture. Shocking as it may seem, but heaven and hell are concepts I rarely think about. Sermons that dwell on "what will heaven look/be like?" actually bore me. I try to consentrate on living my life, doing the right things, improving myelf yadaydadayada. I imagine that's what you concentrate on as well. I just have a different focus/goal for that improvement of myself than you do.”

“My family and I were leaving for dinner one night when a van, yes, a vanful of people pulled up in the drive with a big logo for a Baptist church just down the road. I immediately thought "Uh-oh, this isn't going to be fun." A guy gets out and immediately wants to talk about my salvation and do I go to church. I'm obviously going somewhere, keys in hand, the whole bit. I don't want to discuss a bit of it, I'm just hungry. I tell him, yes, I go to church. He wants to know where. It just keeps on and I finally just say that I go to church, I'm happy in my church home and would like to go to supper and walked past him. Rude, rude, rude. Maybe I just answered my question above about where the public disdain comes from?”

“when people try to push their belief system on others. Only a small percentage actually does this,

I'm not sure it's a small percentage - look how popular the fallacy of the "science" of Intelligent Design has become. Look how hard the scumbags are trying to get it into public school curricullum. And school led prayer. And 10 commandments displays in public buildings...

The religious wrong is a festering boil on our society, and it's getting bigger. Moreover, they've learned to tone down their insanity enough to brainwash gullible, more mainstream xtians (e.g. - what used to be creationism is now "intelligent design"). That's something we have to fight.”

“That's something we have to fight.

Ironically, the reason Christians do fight the current government school system's way of teaching is because the science theory is "pushed down their throats".”

“because the science theory is "pushed down their throats

Imagine that - learning science in a science class. THAT WON'T STAND!!!! GAWAD CREATED US!”

“I have no problem learning science or science theory in class. As long as theory is presented as theory, which it is not.

PS - My wife teaches science, including evolution, in a Christian school.
last edited: 7/21/05 8:37:29 AM”

“To me, this is where the parents come in. It's not the schools job to present the scientific as well as 53 different religious views on how we came to be. I will supplement the schools physics and math curriculum at home and my kids go to church.”

“Yes, I would not want the public school to teach a religion. Although, teaching intelligent design would be prudent.”

“Public school aren't able to adequately educate kids on science as it is. Adding more would seem to muddy the water.”

“As long as theory is presented as theory, which it is not.

Yet another fallacy. The religious wrong can't understand the difference between scientific fact and layman fact; nor do they understand what a theory is. Evolution is a theory that is accepted as a scientific fact. There are no competing scientific theories to evolution, and evolution is one of the best supported scientific theories out there, with corroborating evidence from many different branches of science. Although there's still a lot we don't know about the mechanisms behind evolution, that it did happen is scientific fact!”

“teaching intelligent design would be prudent.

Why? It's not science. It's obviously a Christian construct; a toned down Creationism fallacy.

Perhaps it belongs in a Comparative Religions class, but it has absolutely NO place in a science class such as biology.”

“"Yes, I would not want the public school to teach a religion. Although, teaching intelligent design would be prudent."

That is a religious concept, Sargie.
Therefore, it would be teaching religion.

"Public school aren't able to adequately educate kids on science as it is. Adding more would seem to muddy the water."

Right on with that!!
It seems muddying the water is part of the agenda.”

“Mutt - First off, let me say that I agree there is evolution. What I disagree with is it's scientific fact. Macro-evolution is not. It has not been directly observed. It's not proveable by known scientific methods.”

“MarkO - "religious concepts" are not "religion"”

“Yes sir, those concepts are religious.
They relate to religion and cannot be taught in public schools.

There are plenty of religious schools that can teach whatever kind of mojo they want.”

“It has not been directly observed. It's not proveable by known scientific methods.

Ah, Sarge trots out yet another long-discredited Christian fallacy; that it's only science if it's directly observable. There's a metric sh*t-load of evidence that evolution did happen - enough for the establishment to consider it scientific fact. That you and other brain-dead xtians just lamely assert that it isn't a scientific fact doesn't make it so!

Sarge, do you consider the academic, peer reviewed study of history to not be science?”

“MarkO - What religion is Intelligent Design?”

“Ah, Sarge trots out yet another long-discredited Christian fallacy; that it's only science if it's directly observable. There's a metric sh*t-load of evidence that evolution did happen - enough for the establishment to consider it scientific fact. That you and other brain-dead xtians just lamely assert that it isn't a scientific fact doesn't make it so!

Fine, prove me wrong. Show me evidence that macro-evolution happened. Be careful not to use the same "scientific methods and assumptions" that Christians use in determining that there is an intelligent designer.”

““MarkO - What religion is Intelligent Design?”
Sarge
8:56:19 AM


I don't know Sarge, it sure beats the crap outta me.



Not being a fan of any or all religions, I could care less about specific labels.

It doesn't have to be any particular sect or cult or denomination.

"Intelligent Design" was dreamed up by fundamentalist freaks to muddy the waters and stir up trouble.
last edited: 7/21/05 9:08:45 AM”

“And Sarge draws out the final trump card: shifting the burden of proof. Sarge makes the claim that macro-evolution didn't happen and that no scientific method could study it, but shifts the burden of proof to me to prove that it did! Classic fallacy!

I mean, it's sooooo predictable and laughable. Creationists *always* follow sarge's pattern. You made the assertion, you back it up. There's mountains of research that support macro-evolution that are available in any decent academic library. Please explain how you have it all figured out that all that peer reviewed science is wrong.”

“Mutt, would you have me provide the burdon of proof when I don't believe it?

That makes no sense.

You keep throwing around these fallacies, but I don't think you really understand how they work.

If I don't believe something, I'm not supposed to prove it for your benefit.

I'm asking for something that YOU said exists. I haven't seen it, so I'd like to. Is that too difficult for you? I suppose it's easier to try to blame me for not seeing what you claim exists, but clearly does not.

"There's mountains of research that support macro-evolution that are available in any decent academic library."

If that's true, let's see some. It shouldn't be as hard as you're making it, right?”

““Thanks to TT, I had no idea until aobut 18 months ago that there was so much disdain for Christians in the US by people in the US. I guess it's the part of the country I live in that kept me ignorant of that fact. In this time I've noticed that the force with which the derision and mockery comes is proportional to how convinced that there is nothing out there. Dust in the Wind, if you will. These folks are taking just as big a leap of faith by saying nothing is out there, yet mock others who take a different leap of faith.”

I think this is because people are mistaken in assuming that Christian = republican/conservative. Because Bush is a christian and so many people hate Bush it runs off on the Christians.”

“Mutt - Did you know that scientists have 2 competing view as to how macroevolution might work?

Now how is that if it is known via scientific method?

Answer: it's not.

It's a theory, one of which scientists do not agree as to how it could happen, if it were to exist.”

“I'm asking for something that YOU said exists. I haven't seen it, so I'd like to. Is that too difficult for you? I suppose it's easier to try to blame me for not seeing what you claim exists, but clearly does not.

How quickly you forget your own lesson on "facts", previously in this thread. It's a FACT that the scientific community considers evolution to be a scientific fact in that it did happen somehow. It's a FACT that all their data and research is available to anyone. Really, these facts are axiomatic to the debate. Only a fool would try to claim the sky isn't blue and then demand proof that it is, so to speak.

You're getting desparate Sarge.”

“And yet, you find it difficult to provide evidence that you claim is readily available.”