Pro-Life in Name Only

“So you would totally ban all abortions and send women back to the dark ages

I would totally ban all abortions and protect the lives of innocent women.”

“sending them back into the alleys to have abortions is not protecting them. before abortions became legal women had to seek out Drs who would preform an abortion. That meant going to places you or I probably wouldn't want to set foot in.”

“If that really happened (it's a caricature of reality) those women should be thrown in prison.”

“probably more real than you think. Most had it done as soon as they found out they were pregnant.
If you think abortions will stop if they make it illegal you are wrong. Abortions will continue but with more secrecy.”

“but I also believe that there are legitimate reasons to make laws forbidding abortion that have nothing to do with religous reasons.

Okay, what are those? I assume you mean reasons that aren't making an axiomatic assumption of the fetus being "human" life...”

“probably more real than you think. Most had it done as soon as they found out they were pregnant.
If you think abortions will stop if they make it illegal you are wrong. Abortions will continue but with more secrecy.

Then our prisons should be a bit cramped.
last edited: 8/02/05 1:40:38 PM”

“Mutt - The reasons I presented previously.

I'll repost:

First, let's try to define "life". I think we can safely say that any life that is, was, or will be "human", as long as it will naturally progress as "human" without unnatural interruption, is "human life", as long as it is "life", or "alive".

To steal a definition from wikipedia, their biological defintion of a "lifeform" is as follows. (see their page for exceptions)

In biology, a lifeform has traditionally been considered to be a member of a population whose members can exhibit all the following phenomena at least once during their existence:

Growth
Metabolism, consuming, transforming and storing energy/mass; growing by absorbing and reorganizing mass; excreting waste
Motion, either moving itself, or having internal motion
Reproduction, the ability to create entities that are similar to, yet seperate from, itself
Response to stimuli - the ability to measure properties of its surrounding environment, and act upon certain conditions.

Since young children are incontrovertibly "human lives", and most are incapable of reproduction, I would ignore their requirement of "reproduction".

At the point of fertilization is where we meet all of these requirements, including my aforementioned requirement in the first paragraph, I would say that human life begins at fertilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life”

“http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/news/pressrelease.aspx?cid=3487

Hospitals cannot intentionally allow newborns to die, court rules in ADF-supported case
Wisconsin Supreme Court rules that hospital was legally obligated to stabilize baby boy born prematurely
Wednesday, July 13, 2005, 3:05 PM (MST)
ADF Media Relations | 480-444-0020

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MADISON, Wis.-The Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled today in favor of attorneys allied with the Alliance Defense Fund in a case against a hospital that refused treatment of a baby born prematurely in their facility.

The son of Shannon Preston, an indigent pregnant woman, was born prematurely at approximately 23 weeks and three days' gestation. Because hospital policy prevented the employees from providing treatment to any baby born prior to 24 weeks' gestation, hospital staff intentionally refused to treat the baby boy, named Bridon. Two and a half hours after his birth, Bridon died.

"It is utterly tragic that they walked away from their obligation to Bridon," said Tom Marzen, one of the ADF allied attorneys who litigated the case. "It is unconscionable what they did to this child."

[...]
last edited: 8/02/05 2:27:20 PM”

“I applaud Frist for seeing the light and recogizing how important stem cell research will be.”
Ewker
12:13:55 AM
7/31/05

Love Ya, Man!

Although methinks some Politicians are feeling the Grim Reaper at their door and perhaps have personal reasons for their beliefs. But, does it really matter?”

“sarge, There are bigger and better criminals out there than going for women who have abortions.


hey bearmagnet how are you?”

“OK. You?”

“doing good, You working yet. I saw you had to go on a trip with 2 women..poor guy”

“Nothing yet. Methinks I might be done with DC. Those women forced me to do "horrible" things!”

“two women and one old rag..what a story LOL”

“Old Rag was our Beeyotch!

Yo soy Rick James, puta!”

“sarge, There are bigger and better criminals out there than going for women who have abortions.

Like murderers? Women who have abortions are murderers.

You know this is my argument. You're playing dumb here Ewker.

Obviously you don't want to have a serious debate.

... next! ...”

“Hey Bearmagnet. What happened to "Who wants to put money down on how long it takes a minuteman to shoot an American? Or a minuteman arrested for the murder of an illegal?"

Welcome back, again! LOL!

Now you see 'em ... now you don't...”

“Sarge, I don't see how that definition avoids the religiospiritual dimension.

1) How does it address the fact that a large segment of society has religious beliefs that don't jibe with the clinical definition?

2) How does the clinical definition address the fact that science can't prove if a spiritual dimension exists or not?”

“sarge, abortion isn't murder”

“So, Sarge, you would prefer we hold out another 30 years with the Republicans where we continue to get the 4,000 abortions daily just so we can stand on principle and hope for a total ban one day as the babies die?

And then we can ignore the fact that people in my home area of Detroit can drive to Windsor, ONT in the morning, get the abortion and return to the US by lunch time.

Or do we make some compromises and work with Democrats to support women and decrease the number to 2,000 or 3,000 within a legal abortion framework?

Are 1,000 babies per day worth the principle?”

“Sarge, I don't see how that definition avoids the religiospiritual dimension. - Mutt

What definition?”

“Ewker- I realize your position on this. At this point in the debate it's acceptable to move on from the introductions.
last edited: 8/02/05 4:33:12 PM”

“So, Sarge, you would prefer we hold out another 30 years with the Republicans where we continue to get the 4,000 abortions daily just so we can stand on principle and hope for a total ban one day as the babies die?

No. Would you rather talk to 4,000 deaf women about to have an abortion? Why the obscure hypothetical?

Are 1,000 babies per day worth the principle?

I will not stand by and let my government legalize murder.

Or do we make some compromises and work with Democrats to support women and decrease the number to 2,000 or 3,000 within a legal abortion framework?

Let's put it in your terms:

Let's look 100 years down the road.

4,000 * 30 * 365 = 43,800,000 deaths in 100 years (my way, as you have defined it)

2,000 * 100 * 365 = 73,000,000 deaths in 100 years (your way, as you have defined it, best case scenario)

So, answer your own question for me...
last edited: 8/02/05 4:41:29 PM”

“sarge, you have posted nothing that would make me change my mind.”

“Mutt and Sarge arguing endlessly ... priceless!”

“Geo, again its sarge's way or no way. Even when RL talks about a comprise in the abortion issue it is a no.
sarge will eventually realize that his opinions are no stronger or better than his opposition whether it is on here or in the real world.”

“sarge, you have posted nothing that would make me change my mind.

That's very enlightening Ewker. Thanks for that. Anything else?”

“But, Sarge, you are talking about something that hasn't happened in 33 years and is not likely to happen in the next 33 years. Even if Roe is overturned, abortion is likely to be widely legal in the United States based on the poll numbers.

When you look at the numbers, the abortion rate goes down under Democratic presidencies. It goes up under Republican presidencies. Someone needs to test the reasons for this, but I would propose that Democratic policies are more supportive of women in this situation.

It is myopic to view Republicans as the clear pro-life party. At the very least, the pro-life movement should play both sides of the field and give money and support to both parties so that the legal and social justice approaches to decrease abortions can run on parallel tracks.

At the very least, pro-life Democrats shouldn't be villified by other members of the pro-life movement. We are working towards the same goal - ending abortion.”

“Ewker - So you think it's not murder? Right?

Just checking.

And ... what do I think again?

What was Mutt's position? He is for the against the environment, right?

I keep forgetting, but you'll keep us straight.”

“you are the one trying to convince me abortion is wrong. if you can't convince anyone you are wasting your time running off at the mouth


you think all abortions are considered murder.

I have stated my opinion on abortion..what was it?
last edited: 8/02/05 5:04:42 PM”

“What definition?

Okay, then your point where human life begins, if you'd rather.”

“But, Sarge, you are talking about something that hasn't happened in 33 years and is not likely to happen in the next 33 years. Even if Roe is overturned, abortion is likely to be widely legal in the United States based on the poll numbers.

I don't decide my convictions based on polls.

It is myopic to view Republicans as the clear pro-life party. At the very least, the pro-life movement should play both sides of the field and give money and support to both parties so that the legal and social justice approaches to decrease abortions can run on parallel tracks. etc etc etc ...

Um, where did all of this come from? You do realize that I'm not a Republican, right? All of a sudden this is Dems vs. Repubs?”

“1) How does it address the fact that a large segment of society has religious beliefs that don't jibe with the clinical definition?

It's irrelevant. It doesn't require jibeing. It stands on it's own merit. Again, you are arguing what you think "religious" people should believe. I'm a religous person. You're debating me. Let's talk.

2) How does the clinical definition address the fact that science can't prove if a spiritual dimension exists or not?

Irrelevant, once again. My explanation of why abortion is murder works whether or not a spiritual dimension exists.

What is your hang-up with wanting to define my position as one that depends on spirituality?

You're debating me. Not your preconceptions of what a Christian is supposed to believe. You're actually talking to one right now instead of watching it on the news. Talk to me. Not your stereotypes.”

“Fair point, Sarge. I suppose the Constitution Party has a better abortion plank.

But lives are at stake, and if it takes deemphasizing the legal push to more adequately address the free market issues, then that's what should be done.”

“But lives are at stake, and if it takes deemphasizing the legal push to more adequately address the free market issues, then that's what should be done. - rl

We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.

Here's another idea, one that I belive will be more effective, and what is the reality of what is happening now.

By working together, your "team" and my "team", we can have the greatest impact.

What I mean is you guys keep getting out the word in a politically correct fashion - and my guys will keep hitting the legislature.

Fair enough?”

“PS RL, since you brought it up, here is the Constitution Party's platform on the sanctity of life (forgive the cut-paste).

The pre-born child, whose life begins at fertilization, is a human being created in God's image. The first duty of the law is to prevent the shedding of innocent blood. It is, therefore, the duty of all civil governments to secure and to safeguard the lives of the pre-born.

To that end, the Constitution of the United States was ordained and established for "ourselves and our posterity." Under no circumstances may the federal government fund or otherwise support any state or local government or any organization or entity, foreign or domestic, which advocates, encourages or participates in the practice of abortion. We also oppose the distribution and use of all abortifacients.

We affirm the God-given legal personhood of all unborn human beings, without exception. As to matters of rape and incest, it is unconscionable to take the life of an innocent child for the crimes of his father.

No government may legalize the taking of the unalienable right to life without justification, including the life of the pre-born; abortion may not be declared lawful by any institution of state or local government - legislative, judicial, or executive. The right to life should not be made dependent upon a vote of a majority of any legislative body.

In addition, Article IV of the Constitution guarantees to each state a republican form of government. Therefore, although a Supreme Court opinion is binding on the parties to the controversy as to the particulars of the case, it is not a political rule for the nation. Roe v. Wade is an illegitimate usurpation of authority, contrary to the law of the nation's Charter and Constitution. It must be resisted by all civil government officials, federal, state, and local, and by all branches of the government - legislative, executive, and judicial.

We affirm both the authority and duty of Congress to limit the appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court in all cases of abortion in accordance with the U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 2.

In office, we shall only appoint to the federal judiciary, and to other positions of federal authority, qualified individuals who publicly acknowledge and commit themselves to the legal personhood of the pre-born child. In addition, we will do all that is within our power to encourage federal, state, and local government officials to protect the sanctity of the life of the pre-born through legislation, executive action, and judicial enforcement of the law of the land.

Further, we condemn the misuse of federal laws against pro-life demonstrators, and strongly urge the repeal of the FACE Acts as an unconstitutional expansion of federal power into areas reserved to the states or people by the Tenth Amendment.

In addition, we oppose the funding and legalization of bio-research involving human embryonic or pre-embryonic cells.

Finally, we also oppose all government "legalization" of euthanasia, infanticide and suicide.”

“That has been my position since before joining the party. I don't agree with every platform of theirs, but this I do.”

“I have admitted to being wrong on here several times

show me.

man, i wish i could be around during the daytime for these things. i hate coming back to find 100 page-long posts since the last-time i posted. i still havent read everything from last night. and theres really no point. just the same old round and round and round. maybe when i get bored of teenasiannudists.com ill jump in.

ylictap
last edited: 8/02/05 5:29:47 PM”

“maybe we should call this thread "christian in name only"

wish i had the time to properly devote to this. but right now i need a shower

lacipyt”

“show me.

I don't remember the thread, but there was one in the last month where I said I was an idiot (because I screwed something up). There have been several others before that. I'm not going to search through every post for them. Sorry.

maybe when i get bored of teenasiannudists.com ill jump in.

Do us all a favor and wash up first. Thanks.”

“but right now i need a shower

{he he}”

“"i hate coming back to find 100 page-long posts since the last-time i posted."

Same
Slt
Different
Day

You didn't miss a thing Crash. LOL!

"ylictap"

What's this may I ask?”

“maybe when i get bored of teenasiannudists.com ill jump in.

Do us all a favor and wash up first. Thanks.”
Sarge
6:31:40 PM
8/02/05
ignore this user

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“but right now i need a shower

{he he}”

i was at work. seriously. you believe me right? come on.





boy did i set myself up”

“I don't remember the thread, but there was one in the last month where I said I was an idiot (because I screwed something up).

i saw that. it was something extremely minor. a typo or some other kind of procedural error. doesnt count. im pretty sure i said "out of line", not just "wrong"

i freely admit right now i have been out of line to several people on this board. you are one of them. twinkle toes is another. nigal is a putz, he doesnt count :-D
last edited: 8/02/05 6:29:18 PM”

“You didn't miss a thing Crash. LOL!

Some people are interesting in the discussion. If you're not, what kind of fool are you to still be here wasting your time?

OM-!”

“i freely admit right now i have been out of line to several people on this board. you are one of them. twinkle toes is another. nigal is a putz, he doesnt count :-D

That's very manly of you wanker.

Check out the Big Brother thread. I'm demonstrating just how much of a nerd I am, so you may appreciate it.”

“i agree. you would be a fool to waste time if you thought it was pointless. and i sometimes foolishly waste time. and sometimes i find it interesting”

“i saw that. it was something extremely minor. a typo or some other kind of procedural error. doesnt count. im pretty sure i said "out of line", not just "wrong"

Regardless, if I wronged somebody I addressed them offline. They know who they are. I don't feel like I have to post it here to gain "points" for the PC crowd. And "yes", I have done this recently. 'nuff said.”

“crash ... It could be worse ... you could be in the "forgot how to write an 'S' thread" ... LOL”

“ And "yes", I have done this recently. 'nuff said.”

theres hope for you yet

:-D

i know for a fact youre a much nicer person than you let on here. ok, i dont really know it, but i get the impression.

and i am in the "s" thread, with my own problems”