Attention Wallmart Shoppers:

“no, I mean he might catch something from you crash...which would be gross!”

“
Sorry Hyway, I think that would be a waste of my time. If you want to know, check it out. Otherwise... whatever.

But keep in mind that willful ignorance is no excuse.


One thing is clear. Buying Chinese goods supports the largest Communist government in the known world. It's a funny thing for the Patriotic Right (sic) to be arguing for.

The disconnect is astounding.

Red China is controlling more and more of our national debt ---- We're buying their goods with money we borrow from THEM. You're familiar with the phenomenon of 'the company store', aren't you?”

“cb - I didn't take it that you were questioning my motives. I was just adding info for why I might know a bit about the motives.”

“I have to go to walmart in a couple hours to get a new outfit and some nice shoes.

Sorry, but its either walmart or K-mart or Target around here.”

“The disconnect is astounding.

I agree.”

“XL - I know it is, and as a free market I'm choosing not to shop there and would encourage others to do the same - just like Walmart.

Tell me XL - is there anything that would make you stop spending your money at a store on principle?”

“China has a one trillion $ surplus! Good job GOP & walmart shoppers! Way to drive that communist economy!”

“Well I don't buy stuff on principle usually I use Cash or credit (LOL). Y2 et al. My opinion of a store does not run with the CROWD. I know that unions HATE WalMart because they do not tend to buckle to the Thug threats. So there are the fake Alligator tear issues.

here is how I decide to buy or not buy anything. Seeing as how a purchase is weighed by cost versus benefit.

You choose not to buy A because you see the cost (whatever you add on) is not worth the benefit. Okee doke, go for it.

years ago I saw a benefit to spending THOUSANDS of dollars I earned, and spending long nights of my life to get a Masters Degree. Now I can get more money.

I have a friend in roughly the same condition who decided to spend that time partying in the evenings.

Today as a result I make half again as much as he does.

In the WALMART sense. Lets say we are both buying "baseball bats" from somewhere. I decide to use a store that also sponsors the "Babe Ruth School of Harp Seal Hunting" you don't like that so you buy the same bat from another store that does not support that activity. You spend 20% more. As long as you do not ask me to fund or help you pay for it I could care less.

But if you demand the US Government steal money from me to subsidise your decision (help you make up the 20%) then we have a problem.”

“I would rather support red china than a union. At least red china is upfront about wanting to screw me over.”

“My wife is putting together a Nitrogen piece. Without Nixon's receptiveness, China would have been screwed and we wouldn't be discussing this.”

“If you live in a small town in the south, you HAVE to shop at WalMart.

Besides, name another retailer that doesn't get their #&%!$ from China.”

“Sorry, but its either walmart or K-mart or Target around here.

That's the thing.... What can you do once EVERYthing comes from China (and the like)??”

“The youngest parents on record are a Chinese couple who gave birth to a normal boy when the father was nine years old and the mother was eight.”

“At least he had a full time job. ;-)”

“I've got Mexico, Indonesia, Singapore, Germany, USA...”

“If you live in a small town in the south, you HAVE to shop at WalMart.

Besides, name another retailer that doesn't get their #&%!$ from China.”
chili
10:42:21 AM
3/30/07


Exactly. There aren't alot of choices around here. I could drive 30-45 minutes one way to Birmingham. That's not fun.”

“Walmart drives down prices (coupled with China artificially holding down the value of its currency).... Manufacturing goes offshore and there are no domestic suppliers left for ANY store to buy from. The probably wouldn't anyway because they have to try to match Walmart's prices.


Have we already royally screwed ourselves?”

“Thug threats - what are you talking about XL? You need to get over than victim mentality.

I'll ask you again, is there any place you wouldn't shop out of principle? What if a store was directly helping America's enemies? I'm not going to physically stop you going there XL - but we're talking about it on a thread here.

Chili - I can see it might be the most convenient option in the a small town in the south. If it is the only store in a decent radious then I can see people have to shop there.

I'd just ask those who have a choice to think about what they are supporting and paying for when they shop there.”

“Back when I read the Citizen Soldier series (drawing a blank on the author, Undaunted Courage fella) the main thing that stood out to me was that we won the war by out producing everyone. We no longer have much production capacity and our skilled labor is retiring. We're about to be China's b!tch.”

“Not good.”

“DH- Stephen Ambrose

My only real concern is our nation losing its competitive edge and becoming a second rater in the world. I think we are headed that way if we aren't careful.

At this point in my life I am trying to buy as much of the things I want/need as locally as possible. We do check where things come from and US made goes to the top of the list. But we buy foreign stuff when it is obviously better than the American made option.

But at least I have the option, many don't.
last edited: 3/30/07 11:09:10 AM”

“I have a korean made car....


my american made one sucked!”

“Yeah, the US really lets me down on cars.
There isn't a car made in the US that am I willing to own.

Very disappointing.”

“Don't think I am defending Wally World, because I am not. It's just that there isn't a lot of other options. And most of the other retailers are getting things from the same countries as WalMart.

20 years ago, every little town had a garmet factory in the south. Now, none do.”

“Yep, for 10 years I was in screen printing.
I watched the tags in the shirts go from all made in USA to 100% Honduras, Dominican Republic ect. When I left print the only USA shirts I ever saw were the high end hand dyed boutique labels or the recycled stuff.”

“As goes GM, so goes the nation.”

“I have a Nissan. It was made in Mexico. I find that very amusing.”

“My little town is where lots of the cotton yarn that went in t-shirts and jeans was made. The building now sits empty. Russell was a huge garment producer just down the road. They make lots of their stuff offshore.


HPM - If we can afford it, I'd like for our next mini-van to be an American made Honda Odyssey. They're made 15 minutes from my house. I'm currently doing work out there. I also do business with those that do business with me. I like my Sienna but will probably wind up with the Odyssey next time for reasons listed above. These are also reasons I go to the movies at Regal or Cobb cinemas and buy books at Books A Million.
last edited: 3/30/07 11:47:26 AM”

“Not to pick on Sassafras, but her argument illustrates a point.

It’s not that we shouldn’t demand more from the people we buy our products from; it’s about how we can’t make this planet a utopia by controlling the behavior of everyone. This codependent “save the children” nonsense reminds me of the typical “liberal” mindset: “We need to control people’s behavior for their own good.”

I swear I’m not picking on Sassafras but what could make for a better illogical emotional argument? ”We want to save the children. If you don’t believe like we do, you don’t want to save the children. If you don’t believe in saving children you’re obviously heartless. Don’t you want to save the children? What kind of monster doesn’t want to save the children?” End of discussion. Haven’t we seen this insulting illogic used over and over?

Let me state this again: Businesses can’t force people to do anything. Unless there is a monopoly on an essential goods and services, the market gives us choices. What are the only entities that have monopolies on essential goods and services? If you answered governments, you win!

The only way that governments can ensure compliance with their will is by force. Governments use force of imprisonment, confiscation of personal wealth, or threat of death. Business has no such leverage to enforce their will. If they don’t provide a product or service that people want they will cease to exist.

What is so difficult to understand about this? Since this isn’t rocket science, it’s hard to imagine that our public schools are so bad that someone with a high school education doesn’t understand this concept. Certainly our public schools have failed people like Marko who unflinchingly hold onto their opinions when faced with conflicting evidence.


I don’t give a flip whether people agree with my conclusions but don’t some folks have enough brains to reach their own conclusions through the examination of facts from all sides of an issue? I have doubts. I continually hear justifications and rationalizations for ignoring factual evidence while people stubbornly cling to the same positions with which they enter any discussion. They are never persuaded to even THINK about the possibility that they might re-examine their original positions.

The world must be filled with super geniuses. I continually re-examine my positions when presented with factual evidence that questions my beliefs. It is incomprehensible to me that some of you people think that you are able to reach factually correct positions without a re-examination of your original hypotheses. The more logical conclusion is for me to think that many people hear the beliefs (beliefs that fit preconceived ideas they already hold) of other people with political agendas they like and have too much pride to realize that maybe they don’t have the brains to understand complicated issues on limited information.

I’ve never met a genius who thinks like that so many folks must think of themselves as super geniuses. I say they’re fools. I must admit that I do respect Y2’s decision to make a free market choice. It’s his “principles” I find questionable.


Crash-bang asked, Why do you have to politicize everything? Crash-bang ought to better ask himself, “Why do my positions always fall in line with my political party?”

My views of limited government protect other people from me. You don’t want me making decisions for you and I don’t want responsibility for improving your life.

Codependent “liberals” feel a need to save us all from ourselves. They feel a need to create a large governmental organization to protect us from evil corporations, poor health, loss of employment, irresponsible retirement savings choices, … The list goes on and on. But they only seem satisfied when government is under the control of people who believe like them.

The consequences of “liberal” actions are to take away my choices and to erode my liberty. And I’ll bet most “liberals” don’t understand what I’m talking about. It would be nice if they were able to self-examine and discover that their actions are not always in the best interest of others so that they might stop taking actions that try to control others, just as many “liberals” complain that religious fundamentalists are trying to control their lives.

What is it about the “liberal” mindset that wants control over other people’s lives?


Want to know where most people stand on any newly controversial topic? Wait for an example of the new topic to be reported in the media. People of different political persuasions will often voice opinions that are thoughtful and speculative. Wait for the “conservative” and “liberal” mouthpieces to voice their opinions. Then you’ll see people who consider themselves “conservatives” lining up with the “conservative” mouthpieces, and people who consider themselves “liberals” lining up with the position taken by the “liberal” mouthpieces. Once the positions are taken, logic doesn’t seem to play a part. People ignore competing facts and just talk past each other defending their established positions. It is an amazingly funny pattern that I’ve noticed over years of observation. I call it the bleating of the lambs.

It's amazing how perception works. On another thread, Tilt mentioned what he called “The Ayn Rand debate.” There was no debate. Nor was there any debate about media bias. Nobody who questioned my points in these so-called “debates” would admit to doing any research on the subjects. What they offered was purely conjecture, emotion, and second-hand opinion.




True liberalism is a belief in free markets. It may be very messy for markets to adjust and for misbehaving corporations to be brought to task. True economic liberals don’t defend corporations they defend the free market’s ability to correct wrongs with limited government interference. True economic liberals shun socialist ideas of increasing government control over markets because, in the history of the world, it has never been a successful economic strategy. But leftist “liberals” want what they want and they want it NOW! The quickest way to correct market inefficiencies may be government control but it has been proven to have long-lasting negative consequences. It has always been the path to a totalitarian society.


My philosophy tells me that I should always be in favor of people’s choice to be employed, to be free to choose to be employed for a wage that an employer offers, and for an employer to be free to offer a wage that people are willing to accept. That is happening with WalMart. According to public figures, there are many more people who are willing to work for WalMart than there are positions available. The economic benefits that WalMart provides are astounding. Did anyone even bother to look at some of the figures in George Will’s article?

My questions to the control freaks are: Why are you trying to control market dynamics? What makes you believe that you can control market forces to achieve your desired outcomes when you know little or nothing about economics? Why do you ignore the fact that people want to make their own choices? Why do you want to make decisions for others? And why don’t you bother to examine your motives?
last edited: 3/30/07 12:12:23 PM”

“It's a side issue arclite - but in your view, is the passing and enforcement of anti-trust laws ever justified?”

“Of course it is, Y2.

In your opinion is privatizing a government monoploy ever justified?”

“Crash-bang ought to better ask himself, “Why do my positions always fall in line with my political party?”

they dont. im against abortion, for gay rights, for legalized pot, for tougher laws on sexual offenders, for capital punishment, against fcc censorship, for free market

tell me what party goes right down that line?”

“Certainly not liberal. Nor Libertarian...”

“Y2 before I answer your question "Would I directly purchase from a company that was working against the United States" I would have to ask "By whose accusation?"

Will helping the Chinese to grow their economy to a point where the mere thought of a conflict which would destroy their economy (and remember it is squelched desire not oppression that breeds revolution) be considered "Aiding and abetting"? Not in my opinion.

Do I not frequent places/organization on principle?

yes. I do not shop at certain stores because of their behavior. I stopped shopping at KMart due to thier rampant hypocrisy. And I have paid more for something from a competing store. But will I jump up like a jack russel terrier when some maggot infested wack job says 'The SKY IS FALLING!'? no I review my reasons. I often write the management to ask of their reasons.

Now here is the thing you have to remember. In the 1960's and 1970's the US auto producers were building CRAP. They refused to change. The Japanese began building a better quality (for the money) car.

We have a UNION lake area that will not allow "foriegn cars" to be parked on the lot. So my question to one of the thugs was "What is more American, a toyota built in Tennessee or a Chrysler built in Canada?"

Like most good libbies he could not answer since it was pure logic and not emotionally run.”

“I do think certain basic services can be better provided for by Government. Water services, possibly gas and electricity as I've noticed that private companies don't always show enough foresite in this area to cater for long-term changes and trends.

There was a vast range of privatization in Britain under Thatcher in the 1980s, some services have improved, some haven't.

While British Airways has thrived, the rail service has in many respects declined. There has been a number of safety issues arising directly because the privatized rail infrastructure company, had looked to cut costs post-privatization.”

“i'd like to be a fly on the wall when some of these "hero in his own mind" stories happen in xl's life.”

“I apologize, crash bang, and I'm impressed. I'll look at you in a new light from now on. When did you decide to join the Socialist-Libertarian party?




Privatization is a really tricky issue, Y2. I know what Thatcher did but I haven't really researched what has happened in Britain since then. Privatization can be tough because in some cases the government has run the services into the ground without benefit of competition. The U.S. government ran the railroads into the ground through regulations and tax subsidies for competing interests. Then government created Amtrak and Conrail.

Meanwhile the teamsters have benefited greatly since the decline of rail service. Gee, how did that happen?

I don't think that power and water are two businesses in which government should be involved. Although I’ve seen some interesting proposals for privatizing roads, I do think road building is better served by government.

However, in my little town, we have government sponsored art festivals and weekly musical events while our roads don’t get repaired. There has been quite a lot of discussion about the issue here. Our taxes are already among the highest in the state; however, living in a “liberal” town, the solution usually means more raising of taxes. Government continues to grow while providing services deemed “necessary” by “liberals.” While very nice ideas, I’m not sure how art festivals and musical events benefit the majority of our citizens. But then I can’t justify using public funds for the satisfaction of my own wants.

Homelessness is a big issue here. There are homeless people on street corners all over town. Why? Because “liberals” here are generous with their handouts, which then draws more homeless, which creates more “liberal” outcry for people to provide public services for the homeless… It’s an amazing process to watch. Needless to say, I’ll be retiring someplace else.


But those are other subjects. The idea that leftist “liberals” want to control the wages and benefits of private business is what we are discussing now.
last edited: 3/30/07 4:02:48 PM”

“Just got back from walmart...

I didnt see any disgruntled employees.”

“im for free market but im a socialist now? weird”

“Scott is a socialist pig”

“Well.... When you're dealing with folks who believe Nazis and Fascists were Left-wing, the resulting label could be drawn from anywhere on the political spectrum --- perhaps self-referentially paradoxical terminology native to a plane of existence as yet undiscovered.”

“you used up all yer 5 dollar words on that post, didnt you?”

“Just a couple. There's a bunch more where those came from but I didn't want to blow my wad.


Don't visualise that ---



P.S.    Report to the Hogs Gone Wild thread.”

“puh-Leeze”

“I'm glad to hear that someone can retire someday.

I have seen many people laid off at 9-9½ years of employment with a company. This was when a person was vested in the retirement plan after 10 years with a company. Most of these people were good workers. Also, the companies had not moved production to foreign countries, yet.

Specifically, I'm talking about Honeywell and Univac. Univac even had one group of about 35 such people join forces and sue. The people lost!

Things became so bad that eventually the government passed a law to tighten up the vesting period requirements. But this is how these companies rewarded their employees.

It helps to remember that there are two sides on the balance sheet. There are credits and debits. Once you join a company you are on the debit side of the ledger. Few people become enough of an asset to the company to gain adequate benefits for their contributions. When I first started serious work in the 50's, starting wages were increasing faster than salary increases. So, for many years people were switching jobs in an attempt to advance to just holding their status.

To make money, companies must strieve to increase credits and reduce debits. One way was to keep wages low. Another was to cut benefits and liabilities, like retirement! A third was was to hang on to cash for as long as possible. On the job training appears to have decreased, too.

Life was even more difficult for those of us in the defense industry. The end of a large contract usually was marked with lay-offs. workers had to follow the contract trail. I do feel lucky to have survived.

Unions were able to help employees for a while. But eventually they overplayed their hands and their power has decreased. We are at the mercy of the employers. We are nothing but pawns in their quest for money and, sometimes, for survival.
last edited: 3/30/07 7:53:00 PM”

“So what I was trying to suggest is that
Walmart is no worse than most of the other big companies that have existed in my lifetime. This dates back to my first job at 18 in the steel mills. Getting screwed by "big business" is nothing new in this country.”

“I agree NS - it's rare to find a company that won't screw you - I just think it's not the sort of behavior I should be rewarding with my business.”

“My point is that they do so much more than screw their employees over. As bad as that may be, it's not even on my radar.

Remember when they were so gung-ho on American Made products? In the interest of short-term profits they reversed that policy 180° a few years ago. To meet the pricing demanded by Walmart, many manufacturing operations have left the US for China.

Will the Middle Class continue to shrink until we have a class structure like Mexico?”

“Arclite, if you do some research you'll see that there is no choice. It's not a matter of kids in China and Indonesia choosing to quit school and work, it's a matter of the government making school so expensive that no one can afford to go or in some cases turning schools into factories. It's not a choice.

I understand that not everyone cares about the same issues. But does it hurt that much to be made aware of something? Yeah, I am inflating this much larger than I would in real life but dang, you walmart shoppers annoy the heck out of me somedays. Someone told me they thought walmart was a religion and some people here act like it.”