Stoves and Stove Making

“I wanted to see if there was interest in a thread on stoves and stove making. I am a major tinkerer with stoves, pots, windscreens. I have shelves of the stuff. I have a ton of stuff I would like to talk about with others that are interested. Any takers?

I’ll try to start this out. Do you make your own stoves? If so why do you do this? What are the goals for your design? What have you settled on?

I make my own stoves. Why? Because I love to tinker and I get a lot of gratification out of cooking meals on gear that I made myself out of junk.

My stoves are very simple and the fuel I use (alcohol) is very non-volatile and very safe to deal with (besides the fact that a fuel spill doesn’t leave you smelling like a gas station for two days).

I didn’t have design goal, just curiosity, until about a year ago. Then I focused on seeing what design I could put together that would boil 2 cups of water with ½ oz of alcohol.

My favorite setup is a pop can stove, a version of the side burner with a double wall. I make a version of it that is made with a single pop can (not the bottoms of two cans) that places the flames more directly under the pot and works very well.

I have found that the stove alone doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. With the aforementioned stove I can boil 2 cups of water with ½ oz of alcohol (my design goal) only with an aluminum pot with a tight fitting lid. With a titanium pot I need almost 2x the amount of alcohol. So for boiling water I don’t use titanium (or anodized aluminum pots for that matter).

I also have a store-bought Ion stove that works very well. It burns slowly and is very nice to use with a little 2 cup aluminum percolator that I have. This stove doesn’t burn very hot but it is very fuel efficient and burns slowly enough that I can easily make percolated coffee (a pop can stove causes the pot to boil over).

I use a piece of foil for a windscreen.”

“You haven't been around here very long have you...”

“LOL! I was about to post about 30 links ...”

“haha, forget it if it's a dumb topic”

“I think there are approximately 36,487 threads on this subject, but its such a popular topic I'm sure this will get plenty of posts.

Not a dumb topic at all pitts, just a very popular one.

I just found it funny that you had to ask if there was any interest considering the topic's popularity.
last edited: 8/17/05 9:23:17 PM”

“Not dumb pitts. It's an excellent topic. It's just been done a lot on here. I'd like to learn more too, so post something if you learn something new or have questions please.”

“http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/index.php?title=stove&age=9999

pitts - Even some of the StoveStomper threads are questions to him about stoves. Have fun!”

“Think of it as a flame thread that isn't a flame thread ... :)”

““Not dumb pitts. It's an excellent topic. It's just been done a lot on here. I'd like to learn more too, so post something if you learn something new or have questions please.”
Sarge
10:22:03 PM
8/17/05





Ditto. Even if they are repeat topics, pitts, you'll never have trouble finding people willing to talk gear.”

“...just a very popular one. Just about any backpacking related site on the Internet probably had detailed instructions on how to make soda-can stoves and its many variants.

It's become like the latest ultralight fad...”

“I used an alky stove all week in glacier - so did PhantomSoul. His was the soda can design and mine was the cat food can version. Over the week, we determined that his version was somewhat more efficient with fuel than mine was; but then my wind screen developed a tear about half way up the side which caused me some heat loss. I think his still would have been slightly more efficient than mine though.”

“pitts meet StoveStomper
StoveStomper meet pitts

StoveStomper's site

Things that I have learned making stoves

1.) 2 cups of water are not needed for rehydrating my meals 1.5 to 1.75 is all that is needed

2.) when optimizing performance the whole system must be considered - tweeking the stove alone won't get you there

3.) a 24 ounce beer can can be used to boil water for zip lock cooking but the alc. burner needs to be seriously adjusted to keep the flames under the beer can

4.) a three high circle of hardware cloth works well with a beer can due to the ridge around the bottom of the beer can - size the circle to fit just inside that ridge and the system is very stable

5.) a tea light candle tin works well as a burner for a beer can - unmodified except for removal of the candle wax/wick and pouring in the alky.
last edited: 8/18/05 8:48:25 AM”

“I have fiddled for ages with about every design I could find on the net and a few I designed myself. I even tried to pattern a stove after the burner on my range figuring the dudes that engineered my Hotpoint range had to be smarter than I so I'll just copy them (it didn't work out well but I may post a picture, it was cute). I would have to 100% agre with the results you say, Roam Around. That said, I fiddled for a long time and all that improved was my construction skills.

What I did learn was that I made a lot more progress when I defined my "design goals". It’s a little silly, but I decided that there were so many variables at play that I had to decide what I wanted from a stove. For me that was to be able to boil 2 cups of water with the smallest amount of alcohol possible and, in particular, to be able to percolate 2 cups of coffee in the morning (instant coffee sucks). My “design goal” was nothing more than an expression of what was important to me … that is what the “perfect” stove setup was like in terms of what I wanted to use it for

Once I had my “design goal” the trial and error process worked a lot better. I wound up with a few things that worked for me, but always remember when reading this what my design goals were. What worked for me was:

1. The double-wall pop can stove worked very well, as well as anything I used. The only “improvement” I made here was that I made mine from a single can. I used the top of the can as the top of the stove and the bottom of the can as the bottom of the stove. The top of the can has a taper on it so the “sideburner” jets were pointed inwards and hence directed the flame onto the bottom of the pot a little better. This worked a little better for me because my pots tended to have a smaller bottom and, I particular (remember my design goal), my little 2 cup aluminum percolator.

2. I could not achieve my design goal with any pot other than one made from aluminum and specifically could not do it with one made from titanium or anodized aluminum (one coated in aluminum oxide). This was a huge disappointment because I have a lot of titanium pots and pans I love. My percolator doubles as a water boiler and is sort of an antique (aluminum with a bakelite handle!) so I was OK in terms of my design goals.

3. No one thing was the solution. All the parts of the cooking system had to work together. That included the windscreen. In the end, however, all the fancy windscreens were nothing but heavy and a piece of folded heavy-duty foil worked as well as anything else.

I am not saying I invented or discovered any of this. In fact I am almost 100% sure there is nothing new here. Mostly this process was an improvement in my education on this topic, my getting better organized and on my construction skills in general.

I also found that the “Ion” stove design worked very well per my design goals and, in particular, worked better than the pop can stove. So the pop can stove boiled water much faster than the Ion stove and both would easily boil 2 cups of water with ½ oz of alcohol. In fact the Ion stove could do it with a tad less. The Ion stove just took a lot longer because it burned cooler. But if you recall my design goal (to percolate coffee and boil water), the Ion stove was a huge improvement. It burns slower and hence the percolator doesn’t “boil over” like the pop can stove will. With the pop can stove I have to hold the percolator up over the top of the flame once the water starts to boil to keep it from boiling over (I could solve this with some sort of simmer device but haven’t fooled with this).”

“hmmm, i like the idea of your percolator - i'm curious what sort of system you use to move the water to the top section where the grounds are?

I use an aluminum grease pot from Wal Mart (3.95) for my water pot. And I use the oven liner that i cut up for my wind screen. I knew it was getting worn when I left on the trip, but figured it would make it thru ok, it did, i just lost some efficency when it tore a little.”

“geeks!”

“Geeks indeed. ..

Here is a picture of my percolator. I think it's pretty unique.



I know it's heavier than my small boiler, but it makes a great cup of coffee. Take out the innards and it boils 2c of water nicely. This is pretty old, the handle is bakelite. I am sure it could be lighter with modification (change of handle for sure, that's the heaviest thing on it!)

I can easily make 2 cups of very good coffee with .5 oz of alcohol and the right stove/windscreen combination. I am very pleased with it.”

“Yes ... I am sure someone has done this before! It was new to me.

I was trying to think of a new way to make a stove and I figured that the engineers that designed my Hotpoint gas range had to be a lot smarter than I am. So why not just copy them? My range has a tube the gas comes out of that I am sure uses a laminar flow design and then a disk that distributes the gas to slots where it is burnt. The slots look like they may be designed to use turbulient flow to mix air and gas efficently.

OK, so here is what I built (a picture is worth a thousand words)





The construction method is obvious. It takes three pop cans to make. Two cans are fitted together in the usual fashion. I stuffed it with fiberglass insulation. I then made a large hole on the top. This would match what on the gas range is the laminar flow hole the gas comes out of.

The top is the bottom off of a pop can carefully sanded down to fit into the top of the stove. It's a fairly snug fit, but I am sure can leak gas.

The process for lighting the stove is easy. Fill, light center hole, wait for stove to warm up, then drop in center disk like you would a simmer device. It might have needed some priming, I don't remember.

The stove burns nicely, and the flames only come out the holes (not the sides of the loose fitting disk). I suspect this is how the stove is breathing.

That said, the performance wasn't great. I abandoned it with plans to revisit the design when I had ideas to try.

One suggestion a friend made was to drill breathing holes on the sides of the stove body. Another idea is to enlarge the hole in the center of the stove. I think these both have good merit since if you did this you would basically have a large version of the Ion stove. I am not sure it would reproduce the results of the Ion since Sgt. Rock claims that this stove is very geometry dependant. That said, what's to lose in trying? A few pop cans!

If people are interested I'll fire it up and take some pictures. It's cute but again, it's a design I haven't played with in a while now and don't have a lot of hope for.
last edited: 8/18/05 1:32:52 PM”

“cool! good idea though, with a little gas physics it'd probably burn nicely.

I'm probably going to try the soda can design next.”

“My wife laughed when I spent many an evening on our back porch just lighting up my Pepsi stove and boiling water. It is fun getting your own creation to do something really useful, especially when its lighter and way cheaper than commercial stuff. That whole self-reliance thing.

I found the same thing for the windscreen. Ended up using some heavy-duty alumninum from leftover dryer vent pipe. Peeled apart like a corkscrew and when I flatened it out it was the perfect height.

For a prewarmer + potstand I used a soup can that was slightly larger than the Pepsi can. Took off the top with one of those special "side opener" can openers (not the usual type that opens the top and leaves a jagged edge), then cut two big "U" shapes out of opposing sides. That left two high supports for my bowl and lots of airspace for air. Dribble a little alco in the bottom and light - warms the stove and then lights it by itself.

All off the above fits inside one of those Country Time Lemonade plastic cans (http://www.kraftfoods.com/countrytime/ct_products.html). I cut the angled part out from the inside so everything fits in. It becomes my "mug" when its empty.”

“So far I've let MSR and Primus tinker around with stoves for me. That way if something blows up I can sue them.”

“Ifn one a dem blowd up youd be dedder den a WOOF RAT!
last edited: 8/18/05 2:59:10 PM”

“Yes, but my wife and dogs would be wealthy.”

“The only thing I have done different with the pepsi can stove is to seal the upper inner wall with JB Weld which prevents a vapor loss to the inner chamber (where you pour the fuel in). I guess you could consider that the outer chamber. In any event, I am getting enough pressure inside the double wall that I am seeing a few bubbles being blown back around the bottom of the inner wall into the fuel.”

“It's about dang time we had some threads about important stuff!
LOL”

“I love that smell the JB weld makes when you (cough) first (cough) fire up a new stove!”

“I am going to open up the diameter of the hole on that stove and also add some small holes on the side (one change at a time) tonight when I get back from the gym. I'll do it after the gym so I can work out without the burns.”

“pitts, have you tried to build a percolator out of pop cans? Wondering how easy it would be? I can visualize the pot, top, and basket, need suggestions for the up tube into the basket? hmmmm..”

“That sounds like a real challenge! We should make that an official Trail Talk Tinkerers contest or something.

I am going to put some thought into this...

There is a design for a coffee pot that might work. They are called "drip-o-lators" and I am almost 100% sure you could make one from a pop can(s).



I have a little 2 cup version that makes good coffee. No reason why I use it rather than the percolator. In any regard, it doesn't use a tube. It works on some different principal. It would be a bunch of stacked pop cans with holes to strain the coffee. I'll fish mine out tonight and make some coffee in it so I know for sure how it works.”

“I've been experimenting with my pepsi-g system. Noticed that I need to redirect the ports so that the flame burns towards the pepsi can which I use as a pot. Or, I could git me one of those big ole Fosters cans. It was easier to run down to the corner for the beer rather than make a complete stove at this hour.
I am now reporting my findings: Fosters still sucks.”

“You buy the Fosters when you have guests and make THEM drink it while you're drinking the good stuff. You keep the can.”

“Hey mate... once you get near the bottom of the can, it doesn't much matter.
Sure, I'd rather be sipping on a Guinness. I'll be back at the corner store shortly before noon to pick some of that up because I've recently been thinking about building a new pepsi-g stove. Only as recently as a few moments ago. Ohhhh, the embarassment of carring a Foster's can on the trail. How will a Guinness lover ever live this down.

Has anyone tried to make a stove out of those new Iron City aluminum bottles?”

“So far I've yet to find anything that rivals the simple pepsi can design. As a matter of fact, I'm on my way even as we speak with it loaded in my pack”

“what is a pepsi-g?”

“The pepsi-g instructions are what happens when mechanical engineers have too much time on their hands. Instructions on how to make a hole-piercer? Come on! I use a friggin' pushpin for cryin' out loud. When it gets dull, I toss it and get another.

I wish I had my camera here, I'd show the steps I use when making a stove. I can do it at my desk at work over lunch, using a couple of empty soda cans, a box cutter, a sharpie, a pushpin, a multi-tool (for the pliers) and a pair of scissors.

It ain't rocket science.”

“Have you seen the video of tinny (that mini-bull design guy) where he makes a pepsi stove in like 3 minutes?

http://www.minibulldesign.com/video/minibullin3.wmv

The beauty of this design is how simple it is to make. I see a lot of designs that take it waaaay over the top. I don't use glue, special tools, or tape and mine work just fine.

bitpusher is right. It ain't rocket science. But it does take practice. I don't think I could do it in 3 minutes!”

“I'd be afraid of cutting myself, lol...”

“By the way, I don't crimp the can to get them to fit. I use an unopened can lubricated with water to stretch one of the can bottoms. I have gotten pretty good at this and after the stove fires up the first time it seals really well. I have tested this making a stove that had only one hole in it (a small one) and priming it so it "cooks". Then I have blown air into it and it has sealed very well. It’s silly that I went to all this trouble, but it was interesting.”

“I always crimp, it just seems to make it easier to mate the halves. I still sometimes split a top putting it on, but I have found that carefully controlling the length of the inner wall will keep this from happening.”

“y'all are still making it too much like work - just use a tea light candle tin - that is all y'all need for a burner - if y'all think that is too small then chop off a juice can or minibull can.”

“I suppose we could just dig a shallow hole in the ground and use whatever dry wood we could find lying around...”

“Tinny from minibulldesign.com is quite intertaining. You need to check out his videos. Good info too.”

“I like the video of him baking biscuits. I used to make bannocks in Scouts (haven't made them in recent memory) but he takes baking over the top. I have wanted to try this out but I am pretty impatient and wouldn't want to deal with the hassle. Perhaps I expand my horizons a bit and take trail cooking to something above what it is today for me: boiling water.

The bit where he dents the top of the Wal-Mart Grease Pot to put water so he can tell when the "oven" is hot tells me he put a LOT of thought into this. The little peep hole he cut in the lid is another proof point in this regard.”

“I like the stretching idea, pitts. I'll have to try that next stove I make.

LOL, I wonder how much heating/cooling energy is lost all over the world from people going up to their attics and grabbing a piece of insulation out of the rafters? I know that's where I got mine from.”

“hardware store - fiberglass pipe wrap is what I used back when I still used insulation”

“And what do you use now?”

“nothing - its a freeking empty tea light candle tin”

“That's no fun - no itchy, scratchy fiberglass strand caught under your skin for 2 days, there to torment you every time you hit it....just....right....OUCH!

Maybe that's just me.”

“I have found four things stretching cans by fitting one over the other:

1. Get the cans wet using water so they will slide easier and make a better seal. The air pressure in the cut-away bottom will be significant as you push down. This will actually push the can back up once you "bottom out" and can't push anymore.

2. Push STRAIGHT down, not at an angle. Also, push up and down about 4-5 times and apply a little more pressure with each push.

3. Some beer cans don't work well. I think they are thin. What happens is the bottom "burps" and lets the air out. Then the bottom gets stuck to the can you are pushing with. It's a real PITA to get it off since the air pressure is now working against you. Soda cans seem to work best. Budweiser cans work well. MGD cans don't. Beer drinkers note: I get my cans from all over. I make my own beer so don't get cans from the stores.

4. When fitting the cans together cut out a little tool shaped like a "finger" from the scrap side of the can. Then overlap the cans at one edge as little as possible and put a piece of tape here. Repeat a few inches from the piece of tape you just laid down. Repeat one more time. Then use this tool to ease the lip of the one can under the other. With this approach I never miss and get a very tight seal.

..Jim”

“How about making one (or all) of the burner holes before pushing them together? That would take care of the air pressure problems.”