buddha bear, about your union...

“are the schools going to have to make concessions in intermural areas to be able to afford fuel for buses this year? i ask because that is what's happening in this area.

if so, are the folks you represent going to make concessions in an effort to help maintain a balance in the childrens lives?

thank you in advance for your thoughtful insight on this matter.

very nosey in richmond,

baume 66”

“baume66, we are negotiating as we speak. I hope we have a tentative agreement tomorrow. We are not offering concessions, though last year my union returned just over $20,000 of our package to the general fund as a good faith gesture.

The raise we are being offered is there due to changes and cuts in our healthcare package. So in essence its self-generated. There is also a surplus generated because of the change in our health care. That money will go to the general fund. I was prepared to offer some concessions but the need never arose. I assume next year they will be necessary and prudent for the long term viability of our schools.

Your question is very important in my opinion. It can really reveal how an employee views their relationship with their employer. Thanks for asking.”

“baume asks bb a question and birch answers.”

“LOL C!B! I wish he were my troll...”

“Really. Who would wear a visor all the time like that Buddha Bear character?”

“I wear one when I run when its hot out. Its a silly bright yellow "michelob ultra" one, a freebee at an Adventure racing clinic.”

“Yah but that's not all the time.

And I bet it's not really all that hot there.”

“I think the fact that BB is a Union rep is a very, very sad thing. I am guessing soemone in his position should have negiotiating skills, and the ability to ascertain other's perspectives. BB obviously has neither, so therefore I have to conclude he does a very poor job for his union.

Could it be that he then blames others for his inadequacies?

Are you guys (union memebers) listening out there? This guy doesn't have any "people skills"! That is critically important to you being able to negotiate a fair & equitable contract! MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, BUSH or some far-away Repub is not the problem. MAYBE your appointed representatives are the problem!!!

Maybe you should get new ones... someone, perhaps who can civillay speak / negotiate with "the other side".

Just some random thoughts... but consider the reality... you're going no-where with your contreacts... people are bailing out of the UAW by the MILLIONS...and your union rep is telling you its everyone elses' fault.

Maybe it's HIS fault!”

“im not talking to this idiot”

“I personally think they should go to 100% pay to play sports.

But this is not my thread...
last edited: 8/22/05 7:35:05 PM”

“wanderer....ever deal with any facet of any union organization?

I'll leave it at that cause i think your post is tongue in cheek.”

“It's just so obvious...

OK, what we're doing doesn't work.. SO>> LET'S KEEP DOING IT!!!

This is the Budda Bear approach... which he is selling to GAZILLIONS of his union members... TO THEIR DETRIMENT!!

So,... why is he doing this?
A. Blind allegience...he has his head in the sand & doesn't know what's happening out there in the real world?

B. It's in his best interest, personally, to not have his union memebers know the truth.. that's his "job security"!”

“Baumee66:

That's a good question, and something my members deal with at a personal and professional level all the time, as Birch has attested. I don't know your entire situation out there, but I know what is happeneing in my neck of the woods, and it's similar.

The rising costs of energy and healthcare are putting a stranglehold on schools. Employees of the schools, management and you, the taxpayer all have decisions to make due to these rising costs. In my experience, over the past 3 years, many of the locals that I represent have chosen to change insurance policies in order to get raises, much like Birch's union. This has helped offset the drastic rise in costs, but it finally has come to emergency levels. Last year, the city I live in paid an additional 1 million dollars in energy costs, in addition to a 34% increase in healthcare costs. Further, due to the charter school privatization scheme in Ohio, the schools lost another $500,000, in addition to the $500,000 in cuts from the state. In essence, something has to give. This particular district laid off quite a few employees, to the point where the Treasurer admitted to me in negotiations that he expected the schools to be clean at 70% of the level they used to be. Other places have cut busing to the state minimum, some places are cutting sports programs.

Personally, and I know many of my members feel the same way, I think cutting school programs is a horrible thing. I also think having schools that are 30% less clean and maintained isn't a good thing either. The long term effect is school systems that are not optimal environments to learn, and lower property values due to this.

The answer is simple: When your taxes get cut and prices in labor intensive service industries go through the roof, services get cut. Those services could be my employees, a sports program or busing. The result to the taxpayer, who has received the cut is a decision of voting to pay higher taxes, or accept the cuts, and hope your school system doesn't go down the tubes, decrease your property value, etc.

My job as a rep is that of an advocate. I advise the unions, and act as cheif spokesperson during negotiations. The ultimate decision lies with the members, who vote on contracts that may cut thier healthcare, or cut thier membership.Most of the time, when members get a raise, they are paying that raise in extra taxes property taxes to keep thier schools sound.

Now having said that, and witnessing good hard working people get laid-off, and seeing schools cut services to the bare bone, I have to ascertain the winners and the losers.

Over the past 3 years, the losers are:
students
community
employees
administration
taxpayers

The winners:
Energy companies
Healthcare companies
Politicians that choose not to regulate those companies

And let me be very clear. These issues were minor issues until about three years ago. Now, they are epidemic.

I'll assume that you are pissed about losing the intramural program Baumee, and I know many folks blame the teachers unions, etc., etc. I can tell you that school board's plan for moderate wage increases for thier employees over a long period of time. Nobody ever imagined the collossal increases in healthcare and energy that have happened the past three years, and to make matters worse, the loss of revenue to the schools due to tax cuts. In the end, people like ourselves never got a tax cut, we are paying more in pay to play, increased local taxes for schools, increased energy costs, increased healthcare costs and immesaureable costs (like taking a sick day at work to stay at home with your kid because he's sick due to lack of a clean school; driving the kid to school because the busing was cut; paying for your kid to be in karate lessons because intramurals are cancelled; etc).

I hope this answers your question, thanks for asking, and have fun at Mt. Rogers. Hopefully I'll make it back there again sometime soon.”

“As for wanderer, he's amusing. When we run across people like him in negotiations, usually the reasonable people drown him out, or I manuver our strategy to minimize him. Most of the time, just like anything lese in life, people work together to get things done. This goes for unions and management as well. 90% of my negotiations go very smoothly. When we encounter fools like wanderer, or if there is a few of those fools on my team, ya get your 10%, which usually make the headlines.

All I know is I'd hate to work for the likes of wanderer. I wonder what his employee turnover is?”

“thats a nice campaign speech, but can ya dance to it?”

“as long as snoop dogg is rappin'!”

“Is this thread a joke?

Fuel for buses!!!

OMG! You've got to be kidding!

Hello!!!

Mommy drives you to school or you walk! .... that way we get to have gym and math class still ...

What has this world come to?

Bunch of friggin' whoosies (spelling correction requested, I went to public school)”

“We see you applied yourself in your studies sarge.


ROFLMAO!”

“ROFLMAOABBWISAGDHAETSBHDRIBHISFS!”

“So maybe now BB, you're seeing the effects of the unions neverending and relentless begging for MORE, MORE, MORE, FOREVER, FOREVER, FOREVER.

Yopu paint it as "winners / losers" presentations, with the supposed "winners being Energy companies, Healthcare companies
and Politicians that choose not to regulate those companies.

Your "losers" are students, community, employees, administration, taxpayers

Wow, you really don't have a clue, do you, about how economics works?


First of all, there are no "winners or losers". There is only ONE source of revenue, and that is the taxpayer, the EMPLOYED taxpayer, who has money to spend.

If the Energy Companies & Healthcare providers are gaining, that means that the taxpayer is spending more for those services, and can afford to do so, or are MANDATED to do so by THEir UNION.

Answer me this riddle... do your union members have the options of free-market negoitiating / competritive pricing? NO... OF COURSE NOT... because YOU negotiated some deal for them!!

AND NOW YOU'RE B!TCHING ABOUT IT!!! WHAT BA!!S!!!

We won't talk about taxpayers, becaue your employee's get to choose who they elect (OH WAIT... I'M SORRY... I THOUGHT FOR A MINUTE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A FREE AMERICA... BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR UNION.... WHERE PEOPLE HAVE TO GIVE AND HAVE NO CHOICE WHO THE $$ GOES TO... SILLY ME - I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!)”

“There is NO Freedom is socialism.”

“The rising costs of energy and healthcare are putting a stranglehold on schools.

Not really, over 80% of our annual 153 MILLION dollar budget is wages. With top scale teachers working 183 days making a touch over $80k annually. Administrators making over $125k plus expenses. Thats actual income excluding benefits.

The fuel costs are susbtantial but not the biggy. Not that I want to see wages freeze by any means but the facts are what they are. Healthcare is expensive but we pay less than $14 million annually for all our 2000plus employees.

Increasing pay to play is an awesome idea. School is about education, in school atheletics are vital. Busing is a luxury, but is a major convenience as schools werent built for hundreds of cars.

Epidemics due to poor cleaning are nearly unheard of these days. We have lost 40%of our cleaing staff in 10 years and its never happened once in our 37 buildings. Pink eye break outs are the norm but arent caused by dirty rooms rather infected kids itching eyes and touching others (personal hygiene).

What I have seen in my 11plus years as a school employee and as the son of a teacher and principal with 6 aunts and uncles as teachers is a different side. Education is isolated from the rest of the economy. We dont put out a "product" with a set value of profit or lose. Education is hard to quantify in solid tangible terms (other then the standardized tests teachers love so much). Since public schools are so insulated and isolated (or hvae been for decades) from the rest of the economy a seperate culture has arisen within public education. Its a disconnect (for many) between realy and desire. The vast majority of people I know employeed in my district (prolly 75% plus) havent worked and supported themslves in any other job. This isnt a bad thing but it lends to a different expectation of life, higher pay per hour, better benefits longer vacations etc. These arent bad things, but at times when things change it can be difficult for those who have become systemized or institutionalized. I got involved in my union to try to change peoples perspectives and to try to set an example of attitude and work ethic. I failed thus far. We no longer do our own cement work since the masons fought too much with each other, out tree cutting is gone do to complaining about how hard the work is, we dont install fences, or do any more roofing due to a workforce that will stand in defiance and say "Thats not my job". Never once till this summer in the 50 years my district has existed has one electrician removed and replaced over 250 lights in a school alone with no Overtime in 6.5 weeks. I did it even though the other two electrician said it couldnt be done (each have 20 and 25 years). I resent that the system the way it set up protects senior employees who simply have been around a long time yet shown no intitiative and that those of us on the bottom have to break our backs to justify our jobs. If I sound angry its cause I am. In many ways public schools and its employees have brought this onto themselves. I long for GPS' in our work vehicles to end the abuse of driving home and shopping. Its pathetic. There is a corolation between work and pay (or at least there ought to be). Everyone wants a freeride. The hard workers cant get anything the lazy ones dont get cause that wouldnt be fair. I work where I work because I believe in providing a service to my community through my work and I like being a member of my community who has an impact on its kids. I still see kids I met when They were in 1sdt grade and they always love to talk to their old janitor. I got involved to try to change the horrid culture, it simply will not happen. The bad thing is that when the layoffs come next year, it wont be the #&%!$bags who gom, they have seniority.”

“I know the spellin is awful I am too lazy to fix it. I will translate if needed.”

“BB, I'm still waiting for some explanation as to why you leftists have to resort to your childish name-calling charades. I disagree with your political philosophy, but I don't call you a moron, idiot, fool or whatever.

How can you justify to yourself, as a human being, your outright hostility & vehemence toward others just because they believe there's a better econiomic /philosophical approach which would better benefit all? Are trhere any people starving in America because of Conservative philosophies? Is there some way, ANY WAY, that people here live any well off that anywhere else in the WORLD? Do you realize that the biggest problem we have in our country is the fact that THE ENTIRE WORLD realizes that TO LIVE "IN POVERTY" IN THE U.S.A. MEANS YOU WILL LIVE BETTER THAT MOST PEOPLE, IN MOST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD - AND THAT'S WHY THEY WANT TO COME HERE!

Do you truly understand what slime you appear to be by your outrageous and false acqusations?

My big question: You paint yourself as such a "humanist": How can you look at yourself in the mirror when you wake up... do you consider yourself somehow superior because you don't think about others feelings?”

“Busing is a luxury, but is a major convenience as schools werent built for hundreds of cars.

Drop 'em off at the door and keep moving. If that's too hard, then keep 'em home to play Nintendo, because that's all they'll be able to handle in the real world anyways with lazy parents like that.”

“It always amazes me that there's no real competition in the fuel market, beyond the local francised gas station.
Surely real competition would come if the major fuel companies began to try and sell cheaper than their competitors across the country. Seems to be a cartel beyond the opec members to me.”

“I am glad my daughter will be able to walk or bike.”

“That's awesome birch. Now if everyone else would do their part to stop mooching off the tax payers we wouldn't be in this mess.”

“I dont have a problem with busing, its just gets expensive and as the saying goes..."nobody rides for free".”

“True 'dat.

And as the other saying goes, "Some people pay yet don't ride at all."”

“I presented yopu with some facts / questions...why are you hiding... just too embarrased to answer?

Do you truly understand what slime you appear to be by your outrageous and false acqusations?

My big question: You paint yourself as such a "humanist": How can you look at yourself in the mirror when you wake up... do you consider yourself somehow superior because you don't think about others feelings?”

So... have you shaved lately, or don't you look yourself in the face when you do? Surely you have to feel repulsed by what you see, assuming you consider yourself a human being. You make such grandiose statements about caring for the greater good, from what I see you care about nothing except yourself bsed upon your posts... if I'm wrong then simply reply / respond.

There's no need to attack anyone, just tell us why what you are doing benefits anyone except BB.

I don't think you can. I think you're incredibly self-serving. Prove me wrong, please!”

“Sarge - haven't you spent your life "mooching off tax payers?."”

“my initial post was a bit baited, but not completely.

sarge, yes, they are talking cutting intermural activities to cover the rise in energy, at least as they are projected in at current prices. they weren't budgeted for the rise we've seen in the last month. they won't cut buses here, but they will cut other things if it becomes necessary. and it appears it may.

while i do think the energy companies are reaping a windfall on the current situation, i don't see tax cuts as the reason. i personally haven't seen a cut in my taxes. maybe a decrease in the amount it increases, but cerainly not what i would consider a tax cut. my taxes, real estate and income, have increased over the period of current "tax cuts". my household income hasn't. is it all federal taxes? not by a long shot. but i'm also not complaining about the increase. i realize that they are for a reason, local infrastructure and schools. i choose to live here, and am happy to pay for the location. the increase in my property value has been worth it. if it became too much, i'd move.

sarge, where in PA do you live? i ask this because i grew up in PA. an extremely rural and poor area of the state, and it differs greatly from the most urban/suburban areas. the tax cuts are much more quickly seen in the rural areas. i know this from experience. in the most populated areas, they are only seen by the most wealthy.

unions. i don't care for them. i feel they had a purpose, and a good one, for the time period in which they emerged. i also think they have done more harm than good in the last 25 years. not as far as personal gain is considered, for members or non members, but in the chasm that has been created between the union and company camps. that is getting nobody in this country anywhere anymore.

the entire economy has changed, the overall views on either side of bargaining, in my opinion, hasn't. we live in a global economy now. this was not the case when unions came about. companies are free to do what they please, including going off shore to save money. they're doing it. transportatin wouldn't allow this when unions came into existance. causing an even larger division between labor and management doesn't help matters.

could regulation help? as far as energy goes, i feel it could. as far as healthcare goes, i feel it could. look at the revenues of the energy and helathcare sectors from 2002 to this year. a 50% increase (and i'm talking billions). i don't believe this is the fault of unions. i feel this is the result of greed. companies are selling out their employees for the gain of wall street. the 90's were good for everyone, the economy was soaring, and i reaped the benefits as many others did. i'm also not so blind to see that double digit returns can't last forever, especially when the economy slows as it did. but corporate america will do anything to keep the stockholders happy, including selling out those that got them to where they are. it happens every day. unions aren't stopping this. in my opinion, they're doing the opposite.

i think it will take some type of regulation to bring this under control, and if it doesn't happen soon, it will be too late.

buddha, i'm not pissed about losing something, i'm concerned. i'll pay more taxes to keep intermural activities in the schools, but i will also expect my increased burden will be shared by the monopolies that are raping everyone. and i do mean everyone.

healthcare and energy aren't optional equipment in this day and age. the entire sectors have us by the gnads and they know it.

mark warner for president!!!!”

“"Sarge - haven't you spent your life "mooching off tax payers?."
y2

No.

sarge, where in PA do you live? i ask this because i grew up in PA. an extremely rural and poor area of the state, and it differs greatly from the most urban/suburban areas. the tax cuts are much more quickly seen in the rural areas. i know this from experience. in the most populated areas, they are only seen by the most wealthy. - baume 66

Apparently you grew up in the 1920s because there haven't been any tax cuts in the state for a very long time.”

“i was refering to the federal tax cuts that "put extra cash into everyone's pockets to fuel the economy".

and you didn't answer the question.
last edited: 8/22/05 10:02:03 PM”

“dang baume, I didn't know you were that old. You hide your age well to have grown up in the 1920's”

“didn't you ever notice the bald spot on top?”

“yeah but I thought you had worn that hair off another way”

“they (tax cuts) are only seen by the most wealthy.

i was refering to the federal tax cuts that "put extra cash into everyone's pockets to fuel the economy - baume 66

You're saying that the federal tax cuts we saw only were seen by the most wealthy????

Are you kidding?

and, you said this right after saying "sarge, where in PA do you live? i ask this because i grew up in PA. an extremely rural and poor area of the state, and it differs greatly from the most urban/suburban areas. the tax cuts are much more quickly seen in the rural areas."

Sounds like you're talking about state and local tax cuts to me. Were you smoking last night baume?”

“Really. Who would wear a visor all the time like that Buddha Bear character?”
bitpusher
6:34:10 PM
8/22/05


Steve Spurrier?”

“dayhiker, a man could get killed for talking like that.”

“Well it's the truth.”

“I'd rather be called conservative than Steve Spurrier! And I thought dayhiker was a christian.”

“If it’s one thing I have learned about any entity be it government, private corporations or people in general. They will take every single bit or scrap you give them and demand more. Governments, unions, corporations, people will never learn to make do if they are continually fed more and more resources. When one of the never-ending school levies here in my area fails, ya know what they do? They deal with it and move on. The whole run up to the vote is full of doom and gloom and guilt trips about how a vote against the levy is a vote against children. CHILDREN!! DON’T YOU LIKE CHILDREN? WHY DO YOU HATE CHILDREN? THEY ARE OUR FUTURE!” But every time they fail they figure some way to make the budget work for them. Our schools are so messed up here in Ohio. The Ohio Supreme Court ruled the way they were being run was unconstitutional and yet 10 years later they are being run the same as they were.

If we focused on what schools are meant to do, which is educate the child we would see there doesn’t need to be this huge drain on the taxpayer. How much money is spent on sports in schools? Just think about that. How much does that football stadium cost? How much does that football coach cost? The bussing of teams? The equipment? Grounds keepers? All of this has zero to do with a child’s education.”

“sarge, you need to learn to read for comprehension.

but in your confusion you've helped make my point.

and why do you avoid the question?”

“The union did not hire buddha for his negotiating skills. They hired him, because he looks good in his visor.

Well, as good as a person can look in a visor.”

“baume 66 - I'm not going to tell you my address. How is the relevant to the discussion?

Also, the federal tax reduction affected all tax payers, not just the rich.

Also, you were referencing local government, then spun on a dime and said you were referencing federal government.

It's pretty plain right there on this thread.

sarge, where in PA do you live? i ask this because i grew up in PA. an extremely rural and poor area of the state, and it differs greatly from the most urban/suburban areas. the tax cuts are much more quickly seen in the rural areas. i know this from experience. in the most populated areas, they are only seen by the most wealthy.
last edited: 8/23/05 8:44:07 AM”

“Sarge - as you've said here, you served in the military for much of your adult life? Your wife is a teacher ( though I guess she could be at a privgate school) - your pay checks have been coming from the taxpayer all your life.

There's nothing wrong with that, in fact public service workers should be applauded and looked after via taxes for the services they offer the whole country, not just their shareholders.”

“I didn't say I servied in the military for much of my adult life and my wife is not a public school teacher.

Wow! You're really wrong today.

Maybe you should try waking up again.”

“Still, I guess you drive on roads, get your trash collected, occasionally backpack in a state or national park......”