For democracy there was Abu Ghraib

“Under the category of;

"In order to save the village from Communism we had to destroy it."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/22/opinion/main791067.shtml

(The Nation) This column was written by Ari Berman.

"There's a new batch of photos from Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, and these are reportedly far worse than the sickening originals. Naturally, the Pentagon is trying to block their release.

The ACLU filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request in October 2003 to make public 87 photographs and four videos depicting prisoner abuse in Iraq. The Pentagon originally argued that releasing the images would violate the Geneva Convention rights of the detainees; a supreme irony considering that the US originally denied these very prisoners Geneva Convention protections. The ACLU agreed that the Pentagon could black out "identifying characteristics," but a federal judge in New York ruled last week that DoD must explain publicly why it's concealing the images. "By and large, I ruled for public disclosure," said US District Judge Alvin Hellerstein. A final ruling is expected on August 30.

In court proceedings, Gen. Richard Myers argued that releasing the pictures and videos would give aid to the enemy: boosting al Qaeda recruitment, destabilizing governments in Iraq and Afghanistan and inciting riots throughout the Muslim world. But a number of high-ranking officers and civil libertarians countered by noting that much of what Myers predicts is already occurring on the ground, fueled in large measure by past and present U.S. behavior. "The attacks will continue regardless of whether the photos and tapes are released," testified former U.S. Army Col. Michael Pheneger. Myers, he said, "mistakes propaganda for motivation."

Last May, members of Congress sat in a dark room and viewed the images. Their responses begged for further elaboration. "It was disgusting," said Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson. "There were new ones that we hadn't seen before, and they're bad. I mean there's no doubt about that." Bad enough to show to Congress apparently, but not the American people.

The NewsHour's Ray Suarez said the images reportedly depict "assault, coerced sexual activity, rape, even dead bodies." Some may have originated outside of Abu Ghraib. Rep. Jane Harman said she saw videos of a prisoner banging his head against a wall and a group of men masturbating. "Some of the videos are more disturbing than the still photos that you've seen," added Sen. Bill Nelson.

Far from endangering American national security, the release of the horrific images could provide new impetus to the stalled Congressional investigations into prisoner abuse, and the Pentagon's failure to hold any high-ranking officers accountable for Abu Ghraib. An independent counsel with subpoena power is what's needed most right now to prevent images like these in the future."”

“http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082405Z.shtml

Abu Ghraib General Lambastes Bush Administration
By Marjorie Cohn
t r u t h o u t | Report

Wednesday 24 August 2005

I had been hesitant to speak out before because this Administration is so vindictive. But now I will ... Anybody who confronts this Administration or Rumsfeld or the Pentagon with a true assessment, they find themselves either out of a job, out of their positions, fired, relieved or chastised. Their career comes to an end.
-- Janis Karpinski, interview with Marjorie Cohn, August 3, 2005
Army Reserve Brigadier General Janis Karpinski was in charge of the infamous Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq when the now famous torture photographs were taken in fall of 2003. She was reprimanded and demoted to Colonel for her failure to properly supervise the prison guards. Karpinski is the highest ranking officer to be sanctioned for the mistreatment of prisoners. On August 3, 2005, I interviewed Janis Karpinski. In the most comprehensive public statement she has made to date, Karpinski deconstructs the entire United States military operation in Iraq with some astonishing revelations.

When Karpinski got to Abu Ghraib, "there was a completely different story than what we were being told in the United States. It was out of control. There weren't enough soldiers. Nobody had the right equipment. They were driving around in unarmored vehicles, some of them without doors ... So, knowing that they were ill-equipped and ill-prepared, they pushed them out anyway, because those two three-stars wanted their fifteen minutes of fame, I suppose."

Karpinski said that General Shinseki briefed Rumsfeld that "he can't win this war, if they insist on invading Iraq, he can't win this war with less than 300,000 soldiers." Rumsfeld reportedly ordered Shinseki to go back and find a way to do this with 125,000 to 130,000, but Shinseki came back and said they couldn't do the job with that number. "What did Rumsfeld do?" Karpinski asked rhetorically. "If you can't agree with me, I'm going to find somebody who can. He made Shinseki a lame duck, for all practical purposes, and brought in Schoomaker. And Schoomaker got it. He said, 'Oh yes sir, we can do this with 125,000.'"

Karpinski says she did not know about the torture occurring in Cellblocks 1-A and 1-B at Abu Ghraib because it took place at night. She didn't live at Abu Ghraib, and nobody was permitted to travel at night due to the dangerous road conditions. The first she heard about the torture was on January 12, 2004. She was never allowed to speak to the people who had worked on the night shift. She "was told by Colonel Warren, the JAG officer for General Sanchez, that they weren't assigned to me, that they were not under my control, and I really had no right to see them."

When Karpinski inquired, "What's this about photographs?" the sergeant replied, "Ma'am, we've heard something about photographs, but I have no idea. Nobody has any details, and Ma'am, if anybody knows, nobody is talking." When Karpinski asked to see the log books, the sergeant told her that the Criminal Investigation Division had taken everything except for something on a pole outside the little office they were using.

"It was a memorandum signed by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, authorizing a short list, maybe 6 or 8 techniques: use of dogs; stress positions; loud music; deprivation of food; keeping the lights on, those kinds of things," Karpinski said. "And then a handwritten message over to the side that appeared to be the same handwriting as the signature, and that signature was Secretary Rumsfeld's. And it said, 'Make sure this happens' with two exclamation points. And that was the only thing they had. Everything else had been confiscated."

Karpinski tried to get information, but "nobody knew anything, nobody - at least, that's what they were claiming. The Company Commander, Captain Reese, was tearful in my office and repeatedly told me he knew nothing about it, knew nothing about it," Karpinski said. But in a later plea bargain he entered into after the Taguba Report came out, "Captain Reese said that not only did he know about it, but he was told not to report it to his chain of command, and he was told that by Colonel Pappas. And he claimed that he saw General Sanchez out there on several occasions witnessing the torture of some of the security detainees."

The first time Karpinski got any clarification about the photographs was January 23, 2004. The criminal investigator, Colonel Marcelo, came into Karpinski's office and showed her the pictures. "When I saw the pictures I was floored," Karpinski said. "Really, the world was spinning out of control when I saw those pictures, because it was so far beyond and outside of what I imagined. I thought that maybe some soldiers had taken some pictures of prisoners behind barbed wire or in their cell or something like that. I couldn't imagine anything like what I saw in those photographs."

Marcelo told her, "Ma'am, I'm supposed to tell you after you see the photographs that General Sanchez wants to see you in his office." So Karpinski went over to see Sanchez. She said that "before I even saw the photographs, I was preparing words to say in a press conference - to be up front, to be honest about this, that an investigation is ongoing and there are some allegations of detainee abuse."

But Sanchez told Karpinski, "'No, absolutely not. You are not to discuss this with anyone.' And I should have known then," she said, "and I know that Sanchez was hopeful for a four-star promotion even then, in January of 2004. And I thought it had probably most to do with the election coming up in November 2004, and that this could really move the Administration out of the White House if it was exploited. So naively, I just thought, you know, they're going to let this investigation go and they're going to handle it the way it should be handled."

Karpinski said, however, "The truth has been uncovered, but it's been suffocated and it has not been released with the results of the investigation." She added, "McClellan and Rumsfeld can get up on their high horse and say that there've been no fewer than 15 investigations that were conducted. But every one of those investigations is under the control of the Secretary of Defense. And every one of those investigations is run and led by a person who can lose their job under Rumsfeld's fist."

"We're never going to know the truth until they do an independent commission or look into this independently," Karpinski maintains. "This is about instructions delivered with full authority and knowledge of the Secretary of Defense and probably Cheney. I don't know if the President was involved or not. I don't care. All I know is, those instructions were communicated from the Secretary of Defense's office, from the Pentagon, through Cambone, through Miller, to Abu Ghraib."

Karpinski describes what happened when General Geoffrey Miller arrived at Abu Ghraib: "The most pronounced difference was when Miller came to visit. He came right after Rumsfeld's visit ... And he said that he was going to use a template from Guant�namo Bay to 'Gitm-oize' the operations out at Abu Ghraib."

"These torture techniques were being implemented and used down at Guant�namo Bay and, of course, now we have lots of statements that say they were used in Afghanistan as well," Karpinski said. Although Miller has sworn he was just an "advisor," Miller told Karpinski he wanted Abu Ghraib. Karpinski replied, "Abu Ghraib is not mine to give to you. It belongs to Ambassador Bremer. It is going to be turned over to the Iraqis." Miller replied, "No it is not. I want that facility and Rick Sanchez said I can have any facility I want." Karpinski said, "Miller obviously had the full authority of somebody, you know, likely Cambone or Rumsfeld in Washington, DC."

Miller's representative, General Fast, turned the prison over to the Military Intelligence brigade for complete command and control, Karpinski said. "There was no coordination with me or Colonel Pappas. There was no discussion about chain of command."

Abu Ghraib housed primarily Iraqi criminals. Although many of the "security detainees" were kept at Abu Ghraib, most of the interrogations took place at a higher-value detention facility in Baghdad, according to Karpinski.

The Army discriminates against the reservists in general, and female officers in particular, Karpinski said. "It's really a good old boys' network," she said. "Come hell or high water, they're going to maintain the status quo." While she was made the scapegoat for the torture at Abu Ghraib, Karpinski said, no one above her in the chain of command has been reprimanded.

Karpinski reveals that there was "no sustainment plan" because "there were a lot of contractors - US contractors exclusively - who realized they could make a lot of money in Iraq." At the Coalition Provisional Authority, Karpinski "saw corruption like I've never seen before - millions of dollars just being pocketed by contractors. Everything was on a cash basis at that time," she said. "You take a request down - literally, you take a request to the Finance Office. If the Pay Officer recognized your face and you were asking for $450,000 to pay a contractor for work, they would pay you in cash: $450,000. Out of control."

Speaking about the war, Karpinski said, "Iraq was a huge country, and when you have people largely saying now, 'He may have been a dictator, but we were better under Saddam,' this Administration needs to take notice. And at some point you have to say, 'Stop the train, because it's completely derailed. How do we fix it?' But in an effort to do that, you have to admit that you made a few mistakes, and this Administration is not willing to admit any mistakes whatsoever."

Janis Karpinski is no longer in the military. She is writing a book that will be published by Miramax in November. In April, she received a form letter from the Chief of the Army Reserves, "warning me - warning me - about speaking about Abu Ghraib, and that everything was still under investigation." She then got "a letter saying that he understands that I'm writing a book and I should submit the transcript for review."

"And my lawyer responded simply by telling him that I was a private citizen and I don't fall under the same requirements, which he had to acknowledge, because that's true. I'm not ignorant, and I'm not going to reveal any classified information in anything I write," Karpinski said, "but I don't need to, because the truth is the truth, and it doesn't have to be classified. It is definitely staggering, but the truth is the truth."”

“Hey UH libbies...yeah apparently your Peace loving and Geneva Respecting buds in AlQaeda got caught. And their version of "interrogation" falls a bit short from what we were led to believe.

It is a disturbing read but we need to understand they are fighting by their rules while making us go by our rules.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html”

“That is a pretty credible site.

So you believe the, "eye for an eye," policy?

It is too bad we will never be able to leave Iraq.”

“I even have those same purple gloves.”

“XLm - You (and other Bush backers)seem to keep wanting to make the discussion about whether Al Qeda is nice, or whether they mean to do us harm. The discussion should be about what is the best way to stop 'em.
last edited: 5/24/07 5:19:48 PM”

“hush, ped. dont you know that if you vote democrat, you support terrorism?

true fact”

“UM...I think someone needs to refresh

http://www.pistolwimp.com/media/62353/”

“ped, you mean like talk nice to them and they will stop. shazam. Why didn't I think of that.”

“Let's send the Bush Twins to Baghdad.

(and their kids.... and their kids....)”

“LOL...Well remember the great President JIMUH CARTER??? He talked nice to them and as a result we had a thirving economy and regained our place as the leading nation on the planet. Heck we even defeated the most evil nation in world history without firing a shot (more or less)...oh wait that happened after that incompetent blithering rabbit killer/failed peanut farmer got his tail kicked back to plains....(LOL)”

“You missed Clinton again. #42 not #44.
last edited: 5/25/07 9:31:06 AM”

“UM...there has been a #44 president? WOW I thought GW was #43....”

“well i see XtrolL has advanced from making everything about wwII to making it be about the cold war. i guess thats progress”

“It's not complicated.

There's the Previous Bush and the Subsequent Bush. Jeb is the SOL Bush.”

“im not sure what xtroll's point is in bringing up al quaeda on the abu ghraib thread. i guess he wants to say because they behave like barbarians, its ok for us, too”

“XL, it's progressive of me , but I DO think in the past, present and future.”

“All at the same time?

COOL”

““ped, you mean like talk nice to them and they will stop. shazam. Why didn't I think of that.”
NoProb
8:57:35 AM
5/25/07

That's the kind of mindless dichotomies y'all are so good at. Remember the cold war... it wasn't won by talking nice, or moral relativism, but it also wasn't won by invading and occupying all kinds of other countries. Indeed a lot of our direct military actions kind of back fired.”

“To comb down your back hairs, no, I don't think the Hill will make it to #44. Cool.”

“Cold war also didn't involve terrorists, flying planes into buildings and killing thousands of people. Which would undoubtedly still be happening on a regular basis if we had chosen the Clinton method of dealing with it (stern warning, talk, more talk and maybe kill an asprin factory). I can only assume from your response that you endorse the Clinton method.”

“"Why, of course, the people don't want war...." "....the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Hermann Goering”

“I guess that explains your political position. Great hero you have there.”

“I'm not the one supporting the selling of an un-necessary, counter-productive pre-emptive war as necessary becuase there are bad people somewhere who would like to do us harm. Nor am I attacking people who oppose the war or point out that the country we invaded wasn't where most of the bad people are - and accusing them of lack of patriotism or having a soft spot for the enemy.”

“LOL...NoProb...normally when they find themselves caught they quote a Nazi.

The hilarious part is that if you study their STELLAR hero (Roosevelt) you will find he did more to take away civil liberties than GW ever thought about.”

“ped, I would never say that you aren't entitled to your opinion. I just wish you libbies would offer me the same courtesy.”

“hey Ped, please tell me the ways the US Marines in World War II complied with the Geneva Convention during the war?”

“NoProb - I never said you weren't entitled to an opinion, I just register my disagreement with your opinion. Sometimes I register my disagreement with your methods of argument, as when you and XL try to make it about whether Al Qeda is nice or reasonable.

XL - That's a broad and not all that relevant question about the Marines. I gather there were violations of the convention by the US in WWII, worse ones by the Germans.”

“aLOL...my Uncle was a Marine in WWII. As soon as they learned the Japanese wouldn't take prisoners...they had no reservations about how they treated them either.

Better yet, chekc out how the American treated the suspected nazis near the end of the European campaign.”

“if you get enough wrongs, maybe they do add up to a right”

“I guess that explains your political position. Great hero you have there.”

NoProb

normally when they find themselves caught they quote a Nazi.

XtrolL

WOOWOO here comes the clue train, last stop is you: ped was comparing the nazi approach to the bush administration approach

duh”

“Yeah great sophmoric comparison.


UM Crash I know to the liberal thought War can be made "better" if we are nice. Sadly War is a horrible event. Making it "nice' or "civil" only drags it out. Not from experience but from history we learn that wars that are fought in a gentlemanly fashion drag on and on.

Patton knew that, Sherman knew that Alexander the Great knew that. If you intend to put young men's lives on the line. You best make it as violent and as quick as possible.

Now for the hilarious comparison to Nazi Germany...tell me one thing this administration has done that even compares to the Nazis or your beloved buddies in China or Russia....? Zip zero NADA.

See as usual the libbies demand the rights they refuse to allow others. You demand the right to demean our Soldiers and their mission yet when we rightly call you what you are we are silenced. So it has always been with Socialists.”

“What a complete a-hole. Really.”

“What is our mission in Iraq again?”

“tell me one thing this administration has done that even compares to the Nazis or your beloved buddies in China or Russia....? Zip zero NADA.

the point was a very specific point about the propagandaism of the nazis, compared to the right-wing pro-war propagandaism of this nations leaders, georgie's "either youre with us or youre against us", trickling down to the crap we see on this board from puppets like you and mutt "if you dont support the war, youre the spawn of satan terrorist-loving anti-american frenchie scumbag appeaser"

i guess life is easier to compartmentalize if you villify everyone you disagree with”

“occupation-petrolaphykation.”

“Nice to see I didn't miss a single thing today...”

“Great PR slogan for Bush: "A whole heckuva lot better than the Nazis or the Stalinist genocidal dictators."

I'll grant you that its true, "I'll even grant you that his administration is way better than Al Qeda, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and a whole bunch of other countries." It's just that America is capable of so much better.”

“i like what dennis miller said, something to the effect of we may be the greatest nation in the world, but thats sort of like being valedictorian at summer school”

“The Left's outrage at Abu Ghraib. I remember that. They wanted to impeach the President.

The pictures I saw didn't look any worse than Frat boy hazing. As it turns out that is all it was. After all the investigations we found a few teenagers had just gotten a little rowdy and there was no conspiracy.

Like all the posturing from the left it was much ado about nothing.”

“let see....who was it who BLAMED Talk Radio for Oklahoma City bombing///....????Oh yeah the leaders of the liberal socialist party....”

“A real conservative would impeach every president and congress until this federal gov. is 20% of its' present size. But, you 'Rushy Radio Conservatives' only know how to blame the 'libbies' for the daily weather and any other thing that doesn't satisfy you. Look a little into Ron Paul and learn some things about 'real conservatives'.”

“The DOD released Al Qaeda guide books on how to properly torture someone. I didn't see anything about naked puppy piles, panties on the head or standing in one place for too long.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275341,00.html

DIY torture!”

“LOL....I am guessing to the libbies College Fraternity pranks are serious and hard core torture by a protected religion is okay.”

“Some fraternity.

”

““LOL....I am guessing to the libbies College Fraternity pranks are serious and hard core torture by a protected religion is okay.”
XL400236
5:27:14 PM
5/26/07

Again the line, we're better than Al Qeda so its hypocritical to complain about what is being done in our name.

There's no doubt that its worse being in an Al Qeda prison in Iraq than in an American prison. Y'all set the bar pretty low for American exceptionalism.”

“OK, Ped, forget about "the line" as you like to put it. If the events at Abu Ghraib are so upsetting to you, then surely the treatment of Americans at the hands of the AQ (they don't even get to prisons) must offend you even more. Why is it that you and your libbie friends aren't going nuts over that?”

“i think AQ has a complaint office 2 doors down from lost and found”

“According to the autopsy report al-Jamadi died of a blot clot in the head likely due to injuries sustained during apprehension. The pathologist's report listed the cause of death as blunt force trauma complicated by compromised respiration.

Violink is sad that the enemy died resisting his capture.”