The destruction of New Orleans?

“Yea, we all know that if the Dem's were in charge none of this would be brought up...



right.


It's only a lib thing.”

“as americans, we should be upset, not complacent. we should demand better, not make apologies

It'd be nice to do all you say after it's over rather than in the midst of a major crisis. Doh.”

“At times like this I'm an "American". You guys are politics at its worst.”

“seeing all those kids in rags, hungry and dirty breaks my heart. all those bodies floating around is wrenching.

i'm so proud of the area i live in, so many people are pitching in to help those along the gulf.

america is awesome.”

“Amen, jmitch!”

“At times like this, I'm an American too.

My government is still a hopeless buttload of worthless beaurocrats, though, and I'll be damned if I'm going to pretend they get a pass on incompetence during a crisis.”

“This is a humanitarian situation, not a political situation

Liberal solution to all problems: Blame Bush

Ok smartasses. I hear you all complaining, so now why don't you tell me how you would get food and supplies and get people out.

Yeah that's right. You don't have the first F'n clue cause all you do is sit on your asses watching CNN. You know as much as someone half way across the world. Most of you have no idea what's really going on. Just what you hear or see on TV.

Just like Jesse Jackson, I hear the filth spewing from his mouth, but he sure didn't give up his ride out the city.

There are problems on all sides of the relief effort. Government, city, and those involved.

There are alot of things that should have been done differently, but they weren't and now we must do what we can to deal with the situation.”

““At times like this, I'm an American too.

My government is still a hopeless buttload of worthless beaurocrats, though, and I'll be damned if I'm going to pretend they get a pass on incompetence during a crisis.”


Government also includes all the local (New Orleans & state) elected officials who have the FIRST line or responsibility for disaster planning & responsiveness, yet seem to be getting a pass so that the traditional liberal whiners can blame the feds.

When, oh when, will the masses realize that the federal govmt can't be all things to all people all the time with a 5 minute response time? I'm seeing people b!tch & moan about why GW (who I AM NOT a fan of) wasn't there, on the ground, to hold peoples' hands the day after the levies broke.

People are totally out-of-control in their expectations of the fed gov't to solve all their problems without any contribution on their part. It's sickening.”

“If you bothered to read the criticism instead of going off like a rocket, several people, including myself, have pointed out that the federal response should have been put in motion before the hurricane made landfall.

Guess what? Power companies in the Northeast had trucks and crews rolling south last Friday.

A category 5 storm heading to a city under sea level should have made somebody - anybody - in the federal government sit up and say, "Dang, we'd better get things going."

And they don't need anymore apologists. Cretin Chertoff did alright for himself last night insisting that food and water had been sent to the convention center. That must have come as news to the people starving and dying there.

It's not something that can be apologized away. This is a major screw-up, period.”

“Take care, hope nothing like this happens in your area. Adios amigos.”
Buck

If it does happen in my area, I hope it happens when we have a functioning president.”

“People are totally out-of-control in their expectations of the fed gov't to solve all their problems without any contribution on their part. It's sickening.”
wanderer
12:58:38 PM
9/02/05

No. People expect the federal government to fulfill one of its most basic and primary responsibilities in a competent fashion: The recognition and emergency response to national crises. While the local and state governments have a role in emergency response, this is a disaster beyond the scope of what they can or should be expected to handle.”

“"Ok smartasses. I hear you all complaining, so now why don't you tell me how you would get food and supplies and get people out."

Hey, sense Bush left Crawford Cindy Sheehan and Al Shapton don't have a gig. Maybe they could do it?”

“Exactly. They should have ordered the evacuation earlier, got repair crews mving earlier, sent in supplies to hospitals and nursing homes, etc. Set up places like the astrodome and sent in buses to get these people before the crisis. But that didn't happen. I didn't see anybody calling for this before hand. As previously stated hindsight is 20/20

It's just like on 9/11. We should have been doing things differently before a tragedy like that. But we didn't. It's a sad fact that it takes tragedies to make changes”

“Another whining liberal?

"The results are not acceptable," said Bush, who rarely admits failure.”

“It seems very strange to me that Bush DIDN'T do a better job on this.

Disasters like this are great political opportunities for presidents. You couldn't keep the cameras away from Reagan and Clinton when disaster struck.

And this was a PERFECT opportunity to up his Iraqi-depressed poll numbers.

So, I'm surprised.

But everyone should keep their eyes open. These are the times when politicians get rid of bad news. The governor of Kentucky, for instance, used the hurricane as cover to give a general amnesty for all involved in a political scandal that threatened to bring him down.”

“I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned here (I'm too lazy to go back through the entire thread), but has anyone else in here read The Control of Nature by John McPhee? McPhee described (and predicted) in 1989 what has now happened in New Orleans. This tragedy should not have been a surprise to anyone.”

“It's not Bush's fault.


My Pet Goat is to blame.”

“It would explain the 30 day retreat to crawford, anyway.”

“Thanks Forrest. I read that, but so long ago I forgot it. I will pull the book and go through it again.”

“Bush messed this one up, FEMA is incompetent. The local and state governments were not prepared. It is all true and what does this tell us? To some of you it says we need a bigger government. To me it means we need less government. Kerry, Clinton, Gore even JFK and FDR would have failed at responding to this disaster. It is just beyond the capability of the feds to respond to this disaster. The smaller the organization the better the ability to be flexible, adapt and respond. Anyone that thinks the feds are capable of fast, precise and efficient response to a disaster or anything else has not been paying attention to the past 100 years. FEMA used to not even pretend to help in the “response” phase only in “recovery”. At least that was the training I received many years ago.

If you want to see the proper response to the disaster look at what is being done by individuals, churches and service clubs. The news talking heads will not show you these things because it is too much work for them (no press conferences or press releases). The talking heads are in the business to make money and it is conflict that sales so that is what they seek out.

Individual responsibility is vital in these situations. The more people that can take care of themselves the more resources are available for the incapacitated and the stupid. The 4 day survival kit I keep (it is mostly backpacking stuff) will benefit everyone else because it frees resources for other.”

“It's just like on 9/11. We should have been doing things differently before a tragedy like that. But we didn't. It's a sad fact that it takes tragedies to make changes

Actually, before 2001, we were doing things differently. Under the Clinton administration, a large-scale attack on the LAX airport was thwarted, as well as an attempt to smuggle in a large shipment of high explosives over the Canadian border was intercepted. In fact, it was because of information gained via these two interdictions that the Clinton administration was watching Atta (one of the 9/11 "pilots"). The Bush administration was informed by the outgoing Clinton administration to watch Atta with the added warning that it was believed that Al-Qaeda was planning "something" involving airliners. The Bush administration chose to ignore these warnings.

At the moment, we as a nation are unable to appropriately respond to domestic crises because our collective attention is focused on the Middle East. In Iraq and surrounding areas, we now have 400,000 troops deployed there. We are also spending ~ 200 million dollars a day on the Iraq "conflict" Contrast that with the 110 million dollars in federal aid so far ear-marked for New Orleans.

Maybe we should move the survivors of New Orleans to Iraq...”

“I'm not all that surprised with armed looters shooting at rescuers. I've been to most of the large cities in the U.S. and a few overseas and New Orleans was the only place I ever had a run-in with crime (three guys tried to rob me). I know it could happen anywhere, but that's my experience. A buddy of mine lived there for three years, then moved to TN. He said the crime was awful, no way would he try to raise a family there.”

“"Something involving airplanes", Now that is information you can act on. President Clinton must have had something in place and Bush cancelled it. With definitive information like that President Clinton surely must have done something. What was that?”

“Mtn Gal, You said very well what I was trying to get across... larger (ie., Fed Govt) is not going to be better, larger is going to be more beauracratic, slower to respond, and much less efficient than those closer to the problem. I'm amazed many can't uderstand basic facts of life.”

“I don't want to turn this into a discussion about 9/11 - I merely wanted to finally say something that's bugged me for years, and someone else brought up the context of 9/11 in this thread. I don't expect to change anyone's mind here. All I can say is that the Clinton administration was at least watching Atta. We still had a Constitution back in those days, so that was about all they could do. Even so, it was more than the Bush administration was doing about Al-Qaeda before 9/11.”

“We agree that government should be more efficient in its use of the resources we give it. If that means smaller to you, that's a valid discussion point.”

“The feds couldn't do it right, maybe Halliburton could?
last edited: 9/02/05 5:07:39 PM”

“I'm watching CNN on & off, the latest story - "Firefighters and Rescue Aid workers barricaded in parish".

Apparantly there is a roving gang w guns intent upon continued looting that is holding them eseentially as hostages & preventing them from doing their job.

So... next time someone complains about delayed responses from Relief / Emerency responders, I want to talk about the myriad # of stories like this one that have PREVENTED aid from reaching those that need it. The most heart-wrenching was the report of a helicopter loaded w whole blood & medical supplies which was unable to land at a hospital heliport to deliver same supplies due to a group of snipers shooting at the helipcopter to prevent it from landing so it wouldn't interrupt their looting.

This is the "personal responsibility" side, and yes, I know it's not everyone, but it's a large enough number that it's had a serious effect. There are also private firms who trypically volunteer to deliver aid to those in need who have refused to ask their volunteers to go to New Orleans due to the personal danger they would face FROM U.S. Citizens!

My larger point is we have fostered this kind of behavior by our continued lowering of societal standards and accountability. We are starting to pay the price, and I predict it will get much, much worse before it gets better.”

“A bus load of evacuees flipped over 18 miles north of Lafayette, La.”

“So, you're backing off the position that this was a job for local governments now? It sure sounds like a job for the national guard and army...

As for personal responsibility: It's a nice thought, but unrealistic at this point.”

“Personal responsibility unrealistic for who? It may be for the Gulf Coast victims now but not for the future and not for the rest of us. Next disaster, you can have the MRE that I would have used. I don’t need them. You will wait five days to get them however.”

“Yes, Mtngal, I was referring to personal responsibility being an unrealistic expectation for the current situation, ie mobs and looting.”

“This disaster is a job for the military. But sadly....the military is in Iraq fighting the good fight for oil and Israel. 1800+ American lives and $320,000,000,000 up in smoke. Everyday another billion gone forever..... Think about it. What could we with all that money here in America? Think we could have a train system equal to Europe's? A healthcare program for everyone? Maybe we could start fixing our crumbling infrastructure or be on our way to self sufficiency in energy supplies? Maybe even spend some money in our national parks?
Katrina is in some ways a good thing. It's showing us we have lost our way. Time for a sea change. Time to turn inward. Time to quit trying to solve the rest of the world's problem and solve some of our own. You can call me a isolationist but what is wrong with helping our own people first?”

“The thing some people seem to be forgetting is that the National Guard can't just be sent in. It has to be asked for, and was mobilized as soon as it was. Some people seem to forget that we don't live under a dictatorship, the President, and in many cases the Governors can't just send troops out. And once they're asked for it takes time to get them there (Really Bison? You're kidding it takes time to roll on down the road? I didn't know that, I thought we could just teleport them in.)

And as I posted on the other thread, this ridiculous idea of having troops prepositioned.... They would have been casualties too, part of the problem not part of the solution.

These responses are specifically set up to be bottom up, not top down, why? Because it's worked in so many disasters before and it's the most efficient way to respond. I don't think you can fault anyone for thinking it would work this time. There's no reason that anyone would have thought beforehand that the bottom would collapse from the operation, but that's what happened, and it just takes time to reorganize to a top down operation, just the way it is.

And as for Jesse Jackass who want to know why there aren't any black people in charge... Well Jesse, last time I checked General Honore is black.... Try paying attention next time.”

“I did ponder before the hurricane why the national guard wasn't being called in ahead of the storm to help with evacuations. Isn't stuff like this suppsed to be a key function of the national guard?”

“I have to say I guess you can't have the amount of people needed here on standby just waiting for such an even, what, something lke every ten to fifteen years. It just seems like the mobilization of resources could have been begin Saturday night or Sunday morning when it became apparent that a giant storm was heading for the city.
And it has to be said that the rapid response type of units are probably overseas.”

“Yes, so if people want to be partisan about this why didn't the Democrat Mayor of New Orleans ask for it, and why didn't the Democrat Governor Louisiana send it? Probably because they just didn't know what was going to happen, and sometimes reacting ahead of time to a worst case scenario isn't the best way. Sure we can say it is now in 20/20 hindsight. But what if you had tried to evacuate the city beforehand, something that most likely couldn't have been done, and could have led to mass chaos? You very well could have ended in the middle of the evacuation when the storm got there, and then you'd be in an even bigger mess than you are now. So I don't fault the Mayor or the Governor necessarily either.”

“How 'bout that Bush feller handling this crisis? Any comments?”

“Sometimes things go terribly wrong and you look at a situation and ask, well why didn't we react better, and you see things are so terrible and you just have to believe for yourself that something else could have been done. But the full reality is that what is being done is simply the best that can be done in a horrible situation.”

“The governor asked for federal help on Monday. The mayor has been begging all week.”

“And the Coast Guard was in there almost immediately Geo, and the Army got there as fast as they could, there's little transportation infrastructure left, so what was the army and the Guard was supposed to teleport in? They can't be prepositioned in the face of a hurricane, you have to have them ready out of harms way and send them in when it's over, sorry but that takes time. This is why you expect the locals to handle things until they get there, and in this case they couldn't, but what else could have been done? Not much that I can see. The Feds are at the top of a bottom up chain, they are expected to be the last group in. No one expected the bottom to fall out of the chain, and I'm not sure what they could have done differently even if they did expect that.
last edited: 9/02/05 7:15:33 PM”

“RL, what you may call "ridiculous" other call survival...

this is a cut/paste quote that Phaedrus posted...

"On a good note.......there are THOUSANDS of volunteers who are working tirelessly in horrible conditions (with little or no thanks from those whom they are helping). I counted 58 Texas Department of Public Safety Vehicles going into N.O. Troopers from Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan...... We heard on the radio coming home that radio stations in the state of New Hampshire raised $540,000 in less than 8 hours......It helps restore your faith in your fellow man to see the country coming together to help those in need.”

Perhaps they should all have stayed home. And went to Flint?

The difference between the poverty here and the hurricane damage all over the gulf coast is magnitude. There are tens of thousands in immediate need of food water and that costs money. I think folks should be encouraged to help in time and money, this is gonna cost truck loads of money and take months to years to get these people re-established. This isnt to say stop giving to one to give to another, rather give to both.

I bet Catholic Charities would differ with your assessment of what is ridiculous.”

“BTW, i apologize if I sounded pissy. I just think these people need everything they can get.”

“I'm not faulting the Republicans or Democrats for not prepositioning the military. All I'm saying is that only the military has the kind people that are capable of dealing with the logistics required in a task of this magnitude. The disaster has already happened. Politicians and all the political hanger-ons should quit trying to blame one party or the other. Civilians should get on with the task of solving the problems or shut up, call in the National Guard in a big way, and let the NG call the shots on the major parts of the relief effort.

As an example. If an Army general had been in charge he would have loaded up some "water buffaloes" or emptied some milk transfer tanker trucks and filled them with water, driven down to a Wal-Mart distribution center, taken all of their buckets and red plastic "gas" cans, loaded some troops on Humvees (loaded and locked if necessary), driven down to the SuperDome, and started passing out water in an orderly fashion. The FEMA guys would have still been trying to figure out whether the folks down there wanted deionized or mineral water.
last edited: 9/02/05 8:23:43 PM”

“I got word from my brother today. As I suspected he is busy working the streets in New Orleans to "restore order". He has been living out of his cop car these last few days. His house (an RV in an RV park) survived the storm, which was amazing I am told. His wife and kids were in Arkansas at the home of a relative, so they are fine.

For the record I know what my brother is paid for his work as a cop in New Orleans and I have a lot of respect for him doing his job and not bailing out with the city needs him. They do NOT pay the police enough. He has to buy most of his gear and the allowance they give him isn't enough for him to get the "quality" equipment he should have. I don't know how this works, but I do know he shells a lot out of his own pocket to have a good vest, handcuffs, etc.

He says there are thousands of bodies all over the place, floating about. He said I should look at the news and then imagine it 1000X worse than that. He said “8000 bodies” but he was always one to exaggerate … I sure hope that is the case this time at least.

Still haven’t gotten through to my dad. Phone just rings. I hope that means he is not in Baton Rouge. He has a house in Waveland (or perhaps I should say “had” as odds are it’s not there anymore). I sure as hell hope he wasn’t there.”

“Man pitts I hope your Dad's OK, I've seen pics of Waveland, that's an ugly scene.”

“Day two without aid and I would have done it myself...

Find a food store, mobilize my neighbors to isolate and defend it, cut the power lines to the store and loot a generator(S) to power it. put it back in operation and then move to the water plant and do it again...(cut the lines that are broken, put a line out the door if nessesary...send an armed squad to commandeer water trucks to ferry water to the outlying areas).

I'm not a heavy equipment operator, but I can operate a reticulating bucket loader...find one, fire it up, and bulldoze the streets myself.....

Organize the citizenry to restore basic services on your own...drain wrecked cars for fuel, loot the hardware stores for propane and grills, cook the food, serve the citizenry.

Restore the basic needs of food/water clothing and shelter. DAMN the Rules and policy....just do it!

You can come arrest me when it's all over, interfere with me now and I shoot you.

THERE WERE PLANS IN PLACE TO DEAL WITH THIS ALL ALONG THE GULF COAST, WHAT WAS LACKING WAS THE ABILITY TO ACTUALLY DO THE THINGS CALLED FOR IN THE PLANS.

SO WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THERE WERE ONE MAYBE TWO NUCLEAR BOMBS SET OFF ON OPPOSITE SHORES OF THE COUNTRY?

WE HAVE TO QUIT MAKING PLANS WE DON'T EXERCISE TO SEE IF THEY ARE REASONABLY DOABLE!

(End Rant).

I know much of this would be near impossible in NO, but there are other areas that are just as badly hit but dry now. What is need is to throw the rules out, think outside the box, and just do it.”

“There's talk of the infrastructure being down, but the news teams were pouring into the area after the storm.”

“...and that's okay.

What I REALLY have a problem with is that 20,000 people just sat and said..."Come help me!"

20,000 people who couldn't realize the strength in numbers! (20,000 collective minds could not solve the problem?)

Gather them together, divide the men into three groups...Food, Water Transportation...then tell them find it, and bring it HERE...when 5,000 men move in mass to find and obtain ANYTHING, a group of looters will not be much of a roadblock...nor would issues like blocked roads...)”

“MOST CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS ARE F*CKING CLUELESS. Most have never held a real job in their lives. And that's the real problem when something like this happens.”