The destruction of New Orleans?

“If you tax dollars are being used in a wasteful way, it's your duty to complain. Sarge
12:48:31 PM
8/31/05

you tell that to Stove and his parents”

“post 100”

“Attention whore!”

“Good point Sarge, I am not there. Have you ever been to the city? I was there about 6 or so years ago and have a pretty good idea in my head of how the city is laid out.

What would you propose as for rebuilding or not rebuilding?

We have a major port there as well we need to think about. If we completly shut that down, we are going to make it very difficult for a lot of people.”

“It's all well and good to tell people where they should live, but it generally does not work well with Americans. Some silly notion about freedom to do as they please and generations having died to protect that freedom.”

“Ewker - Do you know how to get ahold of them?

WK - I'm not an engineer, but it doesn't take one to see the problem. There are some engineers on here that are much more qualified to discuss that aspect of it than I am. My intention was to get people to think before they throw money at a problem. I have donated to this cause, but I gave to a specific cause which is getting people out to safety (people from my church are going down). I will not give to the Red Cross to rebuild and recreate the same disasterous situation that we had the day before this hurricane struck. I do hope people think about the consequences of their actions.”

“People dying and Sarge is worried about his pocketbook.

Sarge you're so tight you must squeak when you walk.”

“y2 - Did you read what I just wrote? Go ahead and edit your post before somebody sees it.”

“I also think a lot of people will move inland after this. Tired of leaving time and time again for warnings, now finally the big one hits. I know I would leave. My family is more important to me. I know living near the ocean has its perks, but not when it swallows you up!”

“And yet you all just fall right into line and feed him and set him up perfectly and make yet another thread about him and not the subject at hand.

Blame yourselves.”

“I wish you were right WK. This problem is very evident near shorelines where you can see the erosion almost monthly, yet people still go back there. The reason? They are paid by taxpayers to do so, so they figure, why not?”

“You think fixing this damage is going to be expensive?
The bill for relocating would be exponentially higher. Moving is not an option. Rebuilding intelligently and improving is the only option.

The Dutch are masters at living below sea level safely. I suggest we follow their engineering lead.

It seems to me that this is an opportunity to fix many issues. For example, many of the residential areas in NO that are under water will have to be condemned and demolished. That is pretty much a given. So, if you have to build from scratch anyway then install underground utilities and backfill the area to above sealevel.”

“Nigal, it's a bit like picking on the dopey kid at school.”

“Nigal, your right, no excuses! But when I know some people who live in that area and are going through who knows what I don't need some fool worrying about his taxes and other #&%!$ running off at the mouth.

Dang, I got to get that hook out of my lip”

“Ewker - To be stupid enough to rebuild there without fixing the problem is "foolish". More people will die because of it. Let's ignore those people, right Ewker? That's laziness.”

“Sarge - the issue is somewhat bigger than that. There's a lack of government regulation on the preservation of wetlands which would have offered more natural protection. Lousiana has been losing large amounts of it for years as oil companies in particular start slicing off sections for thier use. There was a great article on it in NG a couple of years ago.
Also there's not enough silt being let out of the river to replenish the wetlands.

Building in NO, well that's more of an historical perspective.”

“try these Ewker

”

“http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.refugees.ap/index.html

They will be moving the residents of the Superdome to the Astrodome.”

“Houston? They aren't even in the same division are they?”

“I've had training as a shelter worker by the Red Cross, just got a call, they are asking all trained volunteers to report in.
I hope I get a smaller shelter, 25,000 at the dome could get hectic.”

“Violin offers a telling link... it makes chilling reading. For example:

"There is an economic ripple effect, too. The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now."


Often budget cuts for things like this are penny wise and pound foolish. And that's not even adressing the human suffering and loss of life.

Sarge does have a point about the need for thoughtful rebuilding and planning.”

“Lousiana has been losing large amounts of it for years as oil companies in particular start slicing off sections for thier use.

Did you pull that fact out of a democratic cracker jack box? Where to people come up with these things?

The major reason for the disappearance of the wetlands are the dams, levees, navigation projects and channels erected along the mainstream and major tributaries of the Mississippi River. This reduced the amount of sediment delivered to the delta by something like 2/3rds. This sediment is necessary to keep wetlands replenished and rejuvenated. This has been well documented and studied to death. Next thing you know they are going to blame the lack of Yankees pitching on the oil companies and for my burned toast this morning.”

“There is another side pedxing.

We could not rebuild there or not rely on government to do the job. The only solution is not always to look for government handouts (ie - taxes).

Why do we have to build where we are obviously not meant to? What a waste of money and human life.”

“Good point, DeoreDX. I was just thinking how around here farmers are paid to NOT put crops in right up to the stream bank and to install buffer strips to help hold sediment on their fields to keep them productive (because the crops that feed everyone are the same crops that don't hold onto soil like the prairies of the past. I just mention this because of the sediment mention. Sediments in the past were far different from the sediment from a steep hillside with corn or soybeans and no conservation measures installed)

Now, I suppose you will want to debate paying farmers, which is not my point although, sure, it does relate.

I think each state, well, maybe not LA, have laws and rules and huge standards in place about filling floodplain. Trying to "out-engineer" nature may not be the answer, if the current situation is any indication.”

“LOL at Nigal!”

“I don't want my tax dollars going to fix sarge's roads, or to keep his air and water clean. I want my portion to go toward helping the folks in New Orleans.”

“Did you pull that fact out of a democratic cracker jack box? Where to people come up with these things?

Basically by allocating areas to oil development, very close to the shore for drilling, then you basically help to sink the area, sinking the wetlands.

Some of the changes are natural. Southern Louisiana has been sinking for centuries. The sinking is also caused by oil and gas production, which sucks fossil fuels and water out of underground reservoirs, says Bob Morton of the U.S. Geological Survey.

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2005-08-30-new-orleands-wetlands_x.htm [/url]


Interesting stuff in this cracker jack box.

There are legitimate concerns that oil and gas drilling would lead to subsidence, which is the sinking of the islands. As oil and gas are withdrawn, portions of the land surrounding and under the island will sink in order to fill the vacuum that results. As land subsides, or sinks, the islands become more vulnerable to “washover” during hurricanes.

http://mississippi.sierraclub.org/drilling/petition.html

Gulf Islands National Seashore. Legislation passed by the Mississippi Legislature in 2004, drafted by the oil industry, opened up an astonishing 225,000 acres of water bottoms surrounding the park for oil and gas drilling.


I also went onto say that the lack of silt caused much of the problem- if ya'd have bothered reading that far.
last edited: 8/31/05 2:06:37 PM”

“Your sources are bogus BS Y2! If Hannity didn't say it, it's not true!”

“Oil and gas exploration is partially to blame for Louisiana’s coastal erosion, because it created entry canals and pipelines that eliminated the natural wetlands barrier. Although industry representatives are accepting responsibility for 10 to 20 percent of the problem, conservationists respond with a conflicting data that suggests that oil and gas accounts for 50 to 80 percent of the overall wetlands loss.

http://www.gulfbase.org/issue/view.php?iid=oagd”

“Louisiana’s Story Louisiana is losing its coastal land at the staggering rate of 25 square miles a year. That’s square miles, not acres. That’s a football field every 30 minutes. We’ve lost more than 1,900 square miles in the past 70 years and the US Geological Survey predicts we will lose another 1,000 if decisive action is not taken now to save it. The effects of natural processes like subsidence and storms combined with the unintended consequences of Federal actions like the leveeing of the Mississippi River and impacts from offshore oil and gas exploration and development, have led to an ecosystem on the verge of collapse.

http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Testimony&Hearing_ID=1270&Witness_ID=3722”

“Note to TT - none of Y2's sources have been Hannitized!”

“If the Mississippi River ever breaks through to the Atchafalaya River upstream from New Orleans (which could happen if the levee system there fails); New Orleans won't even be close to being a River Port anyway.

It appears that the existing levees (which just failed) were rebuilt after Camille in 1969 to the then existing standards which could withstand a Cat 3 storm. I would imagine current engineering would allow the levees to be build back bigger and better.”

“HOUSTON – At least 25,000 of Hurricane Katrina's refugees, a majority of them at the New Orleans Superdome, will travel in a bus convoy to Houston starting Wednesday and will be sheltered at the 40-year-old Astrodome, which hasn't been used for professional sporting events in years.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency will provide 475 buses for the transfer, and the Astrodome's schedule has been cleared through December for housing evacuees, said Kathy Walt, a spokeswoman for Texas Gov. Rick Perry.

Rusty Cornelius, administrative coordinator for the Harris County Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Management, told The Associated Press that initial plans were being made early Wednesday.

"We are planning on being able to do a full shelter operation for 25,000 people," he said.

Cornelius said the refugees would be bused to Houston, but all would not necessarily be on the road at the same time. He said specifics of the transport and housing for the refugees were still being worked out with Red Cross and state government officials.

"We want to accommodate those people as quickly as possible for the simple reason they have been through a horrible ordeal," he said.

IS IT JUST ME OR IS THIS CRAZY?

If I had been in the SuperDome in NO, the LAST place I'd be letting you put me is in another one, with that many people...

I predict a revolt on the buses as they leave the NO area....”

“I heard that they wanted to put some people on cruise ships. Gopher v. Astro, I'll take gopher.”

“I knew it would not be long, before the damage from a natural disaster was placed on Capitalists. Conspiracy theory's are what you folks are best at.”

“science - the new cool conspiracy theory!”

“New Orleans = modern day Pompeii”

“horrible tragedy. the mayor is saying thousands may be dead. the situation seems so helpless while waiting for the waters to recede.

with all of our construction and development, mother nature will always have the last word.”

“jmitch - I've been afraid that once NO started talking that an extra zero would go on the death number. Once they start opening attics it will get grisly. I almost have a similar feeling to 9/11, only this time there is no one to be made at.”

“Bands of gunmen roaming NO: http://www.wdsu.com/weather/4919970/detail.html”

“sarge actually has some good points, to build in an area below sea level with levees to hold out the sea while waiting for the big one to come is not very smart. to rebuild there is not a good idea.”

“Yeah, scrapping an entire city makes a lot of sense.

Just screw it and move it somewhere else.”

“Sooooo where are they going to go??”

“Thanks fingerlakeshiker for not staying silent on the issue. I appreciate the support, and hopefully enough people will wake up to this issue some day before more people die.”

“this is a big country-go inland”

“Article on CNN is now saying the the worst part is soon to come.

The amount of drinkable water is in small supply. Thousands may die from drinking contaminated water.”

“chili - That's an odd way of putting it, but it's basically right without all of the sarcasm. Individuals (people/companies) could relocate most of their stuff. It's better than the alternative, unnecessary death and increased taxes.”

“We could not rebuild there or not rely on government to do the job. The only solution is not always to look for government handouts (ie - taxes).

Why do we have to build where we are obviously not meant to? What a waste of money and human life.”
Sarge

You're talking about IRAQ, ain'tcha?”

“aero - We're talking about New Orleans, a different situation than Iraq. Read the thread title, it may help you next time.”

“I say we rebuild the whole city inland and fence off the old city and make like a futuristic Mad Max type prison out of it where prisoners are dropped off and left to fend for themselves within this broken prison/city. Rig the whole thing with cameras and charge pay per view rates to watch.”