The destruction of New Orleans?

“http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/31/D8CB26LG8.html

This ain't no run of the mill tornado damage, as many of you have likened it to.

I'll let you trolls play, but I stand by everything I've said. This is serious, and as someone who donates to help this cause (sans Buddha Bear), you need to think about how your money will be used.”

“I will waste, oh, all of about the amount of time it takes me to pop the top on a Miller Lite, to worry about this tonight.”

“chili - I'm shocked, you drink Miller Lite?”

“sarge,

you've said over and over that everyone is suggesting just rebuild, like it was. i don't see where they are saying that. i've seen most everyone agree, things should be done different.

the problem you run into, is unless somebody agrees with everything you're saying, they're an idiot. whether you've said it outright or not, you've more than implied it through this entire thread.

as i've stated before in another thread, maybe the problem isn't everyone else.

maybe you should try and see things in a realistic manner.

fact: new orleans is going to be rebuilt in it's current location.

fact: your tax dollars will be used.

fact: the levies will be redesigned.

now if you would, please quit being such an ignorant b it ch and find something productive to do. if you were to put all of this energy into really trying to accomplish something, you might get somewhere.

if you can't find anything productive to do, please just shut your narrow minded hole for a while.

thank you in advance.

baume 66”

“Sorry, I've been working... >8-O

I do have to agree with this comment:

Random tornado paths aren't the same as building an entire city below sea level beside the sea.

Duh.”
Sarge
5:01:19 PM
8/31/05

There, now argue amongst yourselves, or go "swarrow" :-)

And I'M JUST AS SHOCKED AS THE NEXT GUY ABOUT THE MILLER LITE!!! >8-O
last edited: 8/31/05 6:30:40 PM”

“I have zero idea about what to do in New Orleans.

But I find it fascinating that this kind of event easily settles into our right/left divide.

And I kind of figure that good government is mostly boring, obvious, expensive tedium.

It's not about abortion and guns and gays. It's mostly about getting a bridge built or train tracks fixed.

And it seems pretty obvious to me that we are doing a crappy job of it as a nation.

I read an article the other day about 100 miles of train track in Wyoming that are in disrepair, bottlenecking 30% of the nation's coal supply. And our national electricity system is so outmoded that they can't generate electricity on site without wasting it.

And we haven't build an oil refinery in like 30 years.

And try taking a train anywhere.

So we go on arguing about unimportant things while the bridges fall, the levees break and power grids fail.

What a country!”

“Actually, Miller Lites would be more accurate.”

“New Orleans had been in the process of building, and nearly completed, a huge new drainage system. They are quite use to flooding, but have found themselves in a situation which some feared would come, but few paid attention to.

New Orleans is an American (perhaps a world) cultural icon. They will rebuild, but it will never be the same.
I am now kicking my ass for not shooting photographs as I drove through some of the very areas which are now covered with water.”

“Still no word from my brother. A guy at a site I work at is a ham operator and offered to help me get in touch with him. That was damn nice of him. I guess they can do a hell of a lot, or so it sounded like by his description. Just an "I am OK." would be great. I tell my wife he is probably busy as hell (is is a cop in NO).”

“This event is touching many lives, I have family just east of the storm we haven't heard from yet and one of the guys I work with took off today to pick up his grandmother...if he can find her.

My heart and prayers goes out to everyone this storm has touched.
last edited: 8/31/05 11:43:41 PM”

“What a freaking mess!
New Orleans is a cluster#&%!$ of water up to rooftops, sewage, dehydration, lack of medical treatment, people they can't get out, and people they can't find.

Mississippi is an absolute wreck from the power of the storm, with the effects seeming to be worse than Andrew. (if you remember miami in '92)
Alabama seems to be in the same boat as Mississippi.

"Every city on the coast took heavy damage, but Waveland, a beach town of 7,000 that was heavily damaged by Hurricane Camille in 1969, had some of the worst, with nearly every building leveled by a storm surge that pushed debris more than a mile from the beach."
"Total devastation. There's nothing left,"











”

“Well I work designing telecome infrastructure for a living. I do know they are shipping down trainload of backup generators in the area in an attempt to get parts of the communications system back up. The systems are designed only to have 8 hours of battery backup. The hard part will be getting the natural gas over to the generators.”

“say what you want about corporate america, but this is one reason i like working for this company:

snip
With the full support of Company resources, each Coompany site in the region most heavily impacted by Hurricane Katrina continues to assess the impact of the hurricane on employees and the business. While information is still not complete, there remain no current reports of injuries or environmental incidents at Company sites.

Regular communication continues with each of the five Company sites that were most heavily impacted by the storm: Burnside, Louisiana; DeLisle, Mississippi; Mobile, Alabama; Pascagoula Mississippi; and Pontchartrain, Louisiana. Company emergency response and logistics resources are being actively provided to the sites as requested for both humanitarian and business needs – from water and generators, to fuel and communications equipment, to food and shelter for as many as 400 displaced employees and family members.

Each site has made progress in contacting employees and assessing their situations. Success has varied due to the level of communication infrastructure available. At this point, the company is aware of at least 30 families who are without housing, mostly in Mississippi. Arrangements are being made to support these families with temporary shelter and access to food and utilities. Many more employees are expected to need assistance as contact is made with those living in the hardest hit areas.
end snip

they have also donated 1 million cash and many other company assests (products/personell) to the relief efforts outside of employees needs.
last edited: 9/01/05 8:57:13 AM”

“And we haven't build an oil refinery in like 30 years.

Hopefully, this will pave the way for new geographically diverse refineries to be built and for domestic oil-bearing territory opened up for drilling.

too bad these steps won't help for the next 10 years or so...”

“Hopefully, this will cause us to re-think our dependence on fossil fuels.”

“maybe the oil companies will start uncapping those oil wells that are all over this country. Lots of oil wells ready to go once uncapped, sure beats new drilling”

“I still have my fingers crossed for you Pitts.”

“Hopefully, this will cause us to re-think our dependence on fossil fuels.

As if there are any options....

maybe the oil companies will start uncapping those oil wells that are all over this country. Lots of oil wells ready to go once uncapped, sure beats new drilling

They're capped because they produce a barrel a week. The reserviors are depleted. They won't be much help.

This is an unthinkable tragedy. I certainly hope our nation has the forethought to not rebuild New Orleans as it was in that location. Perhaps a small tourist town with some of the history, but not the major city that it was. The major city and port should be rebuilt further upriver.”

“Such a tragedy, we all need to do something. whether it be a prayer or some money to charities.

Seeing all those kids with nothing is heartbreaking. Really makes you realize what is truly important.”

“Hello people. It's not an issue with crude oil. In fact, the supplies of crude oil shoudl have the price per barrel in the 35-40 dollar range. It's all capacity issues when it comes to refining. Uncapping wells will not do squat for gas prices.”

“We also know that major cities like New Orleans are major terrorist targets. So the new city should be no more than 2 stories tall and spread over a large geographic area with no noticeable landmarks so that the danger of terrorist attack would be less.

The same for New York. Everyone knows that something big is going to happen there again. It would be foolish not to depopulate the center city and take down the big buildings. I mean, we know it's coming.

:) :(

There are risks in everything. No site is perfect. I just think that someone could have build a levee or two that would have survived this.”

“Texas hoping for new permanent residents?

TX has opened up the Astrodome for shelter, and now I just read that TX is waiving state park fees for refugess.

So, are they doing this out of true generosity, or are they hoping some will decide to stay for good - increasing the tax base?”

“tech - I hope you're joking. What a ludicrous suggestion. Also, folks stranded in the Dome typically aren't increasing the tax base.”

“Like you would really want these people are residents of your state.

Superdome Evacuation Halted Amid Gunfire


Sep 1, 9:00 AM (ET)


NEW ORLEANS (AP) - The evacuation of the Superdome was suspended Thursday after shots were reported fired at a military helicopter and arson fires broke out outside the arena. No immediate injuries were reported.

The scene at the Superdome became increasingly chaotic, with thousands of people rushing from nearby hotels and other buildings, hoping to climb onto the buses taking evacuees from the arena, officials said. Paramedics became increasingly alarmed by the sight of people with guns.

Richard Zeuschlag, chief of the ambulance service that was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the Superdome, said it was suspending operations "until they gain control of the Superdome."

He said shots were fired at a military helicopter over the Superdome before daybreak.


He said the National Guard told him that it was sending 100 military police officers to restore order.

"That's not enough," Zeuschlag said. "We need a thousand."

Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said the military - which was handling the evacuation of the able-bodied from the Superdome - had suspended operations, too, because fires set outside the arena were preventing buses from getting close enough to pick up people.

He said tens thousands of people started rushing out of other buildings when they saw buses pulling up and hoped to get on. But the immediate focus was on evacuating people from the Superdome, and the other refugees were left to mill around.

Zeuschlag said paramedics were calling him and crying for help because they were so scared of people with guns at the Superdome. He also said that during the night, when a medical evacuation helicopter tried to land at a hospital in the outlying town of Kenner, the pilot reported 100 people were on the landing pad, some with guns.

"He was frightened and would not land," Zeuschlag.”

“There are risks in everything. No site is perfect. I just think that someone could have build a levee or two that would have survived this

There is a different between risk and stupid. Hey there's a risk that if you cross the street you'll get hit by a car. There's also a risk that if you jump out of an airplane without a parachute that you'll die. Hey a risk is a risk, right?”

“This is a job for the Army, not the National Guard.”

“Has anyone seen any of the video compiled by CNN? Everything from interviews of victims to the damage itself.

I had to close the door to my office at the last video I saw because I lost it.”

“Philbiker, those capped oil wells weren't capped becasue they produced a barrel a week. They were capped so the oil companies could buy from OPEC. Supposedly it was cheaper to buy than keep pumping.”

““Hello people. It's not an issue with crude oil. In fact, the supplies of crude oil shoudl have the price per barrel in the 35-40 dollar range. It's all capacity issues when it comes to refining. Uncapping wells will not do squat for gas prices.”
DeoreDX
10:07:55 AM
9/01/05

Except the price is at 70 dollars. "Should be" and "are" in this instance are very different things.
Much of the market is run on fear though, and there's lots of fear out there right now.”

“dayhiker - no, I'm not joking. Consider that many people won't be able to rebuild for years. Isabel directly hit the area I lived in (2003; NE of Baltimore, MD), mostly with damage due to storm surges along the NW Chesapeake Bay coastline. Most of those homes still aren't rebuilt - mostly because they are still fighting for insurance reimbursement. Some just threw up their hands in defeat and moved elsewhere.

The damage in NO is ten times worse than it was in Middle River, MD 2 years ago. Thousands will never return, thousands more will wait for years for the insurance money.

Where will they live for those years (or permanently, if they leave for good)? So I ask again, is TX showing "goodwill" truely because it is goodwill, or is it to woo future residents?

The end result is positive for the evacuees, so the hidden agenda isn't really all that important. Just raising the question.”

“Again, the folks that are in the Superdome are the poorest of the poor, otherwise they would have likely evacuated. How are they going to add to a tax base?”

“Some of those are poor, some aren't. Many were just too sickly to get out. Those are still part of the tax base - they get Social Security checks, pension checks, IRA and 401K payouts. They pay taxes on that income, then pay sales taxes on the things they buy.

Some of the ones that are poor, work. They don't make much money so don't pay much in in income tax, but a little from many adds up. Plus they still buy things to live, too so there is sales tax there. Others of the poor get welfare (yes, a drain and not a benefit), but then they turn around and buy things to live, too. Some use a large part of their money to buy "bling-bling". Sales tax on that stuff, too.

All that buying grows the local economy, so there is a larger benefit than just income and sales taxes.”

“the folks that are in the Superdome are the poorest of the poor, otherwise they would have likely evacuated.

What I don't get, is if you're poor and physically able, why didn't you walk your ass out of the city? They were amply warned and given a direct order to leave (the first in NO history, right?). Two days of easy walking would have gotten them to safety, no problem.”

“Walk, there is destruction 50-80 miles inland.”

“Penny wise/pound foolish:

[...]
In general, funding for construction has been on a downward trend for the past several years, said Marcia Demma, chief of the New Orleans Corps' programs management branch.

In 2001, the New Orleans district spent $147 million on construction projects. When fiscal year 2005 wraps up Sept. 30, the Corps expects to have spent $82 million, a 44.2 percent reduction from 2001 expenditures.

Demma said NOC expects its construction budget to be slashed again this year, which means local construction companies won't receive work from the Corps and residents won't see any new hurricane protection projects.
[...]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050207/ai_n10176537”

“One of the interviews I have heard in the last few days was with a resident of Biloxi, I think. He said that he decided to ride this oun out because the last few storms that came through were predicted to be extreme, and in the end, did little damage. A lot of people looked at this storm the same way and said screw it. I am tired of evacuating.

It is like the boy that cried wolf scenario.

I think that is wht a lot of people chose to ride this one out. Plus if you remember, after Katriana clipped the keys and south Flordia, it really did not do a lot of damage. It intensified in the gulf waters almost overnight.”

“I just watched a cnn video about body recovery. Also, FEMA just announced they are suspending boat rescue operations because of attacks on the rescuers by thugs and looters.”

“Oh great. This is starting to sound like "Escape from New York". Except the good and bad guys are trapped inside.”

“An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.

"I don't treat my dog like that," 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. "I buried my dog." He added: "You can do everything for other countries but you can't do nothing for your own people. You can go overseas with the military but you can't get them down here."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina

That person has a very good point...
last edited: 9/01/05 12:03:51 PM”

“tech - I just used the same example at work. It really reminds me of that.”

“Boat rescue operation suspended
Thousands still stranded in New Orleans

Thursday, September 1, 2005; Posted: 12:15 p.m. EDT (16:15 GMT)

Displaced New Orleans residents stand outside the Superdome Thursday morning.





NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- As police and National Guard troops struggled to restore order Thursday in New Orleans, federal emergency teams suspended boat rescue operations because conditions in the flooded city were too dangerous, officials said.

Troops and police have been working to evacuate tens of thousands of people, who are growing weaker and more desperate each hour.

Thousands of people have been sleeping on streets, interstate access ramps, bridges or any dry spot they can find.

Outside the New Orleans Convention Center, a huge crowd waited on the sidewalks for aid that could be a long time coming. The building was used as a secondary shelter when the Louisiana Superdome was overwhelmed.

CNN's Chris Lawrence reported that conditions inside the building were appalling -- a number of bodies were visible, including a baby.

"We are out here like pure animals. We don't have any help," Rev. Issac Clark told the Associated Press.

Spellman said that there were also bodies outside the building and that no one had come to collect them

As reports indicated a mounting death toll in New Orleans, U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu said that "we understand there are thousands of dead people" in Louisiana, according to media reports.

Evacuation points swamped with people
A Louisiana National Guard official told CNN Thursday morning that between 50,000 and 60,000 people had converged at evacuation points near the Louisiana Superdome hoping to get on one of the buses out of town.

"It's no longer just evacuees from the Superdome, as citizens who were holed up in high-rise office buildings and hotels saw buses moving into the dome, they realized this is an evacuation point," Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said.

He said there were reports that several small trash fires were burning around the building and firefighters were having a hard time reaching the area. (Watch report on violence delaying evacuation -- 1:51)

Houston has offered to house about 25,000 people in the Astrodome. San Antonio, Texas, has agreed to take another 25,000 people, officials said Thursday. Schneider said that officials were looking for additional locations.

Widespread looting and random gunfire have been reported across the city. Police told CNN that groups of armed men roamed the streets overnight.

Officers told CNN they lacked manpower and steady communications to properly do their jobs -- and that they needed help to prevent the widespread looting and violence now prevalent in the city.

Police also told CNN that among the first items looted from stores in the area were guns -- and that officers followed behind with looting of their own, taking whatever ammunition was left to keep it off the streets.

A police officer working in downtown New Orleans said police were siphoning gas from abandoned vehicles in an effort to keep their squad cars running, CNN's Chris Lawrence reported.

The officer said police are "on their own" for food and water, scrounging up what they can from anybody who is generous enough to give them some -- and that they have no communication whatsoever. Police also told CNN they were removing ammunition from looted gunshops in an effort to get it off the streets.

Communication has been almost non-existent and officers have had to siphon gasoline out of abandoned vehicles, police officers said.

President Bush, in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America," said that their should be "zero tolerance of people breaking the law during an emergency such as this."

He promised a rapid federal response to the disaster.

Pentagon officials said Wednesday the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi have ordered the mobilization of an additional 10,000 National Guard troops to provide security and help with hurricane relief. (See video on Pentagon response -- 2:14)

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Wednesday that she was "just furious" about the lawlessness.

"We'll do what it takes to bring law and order to our region," she said.

The head of Acadian Ambulance Service, Richard Zuschlag, said Wednesday that a generator was stolen from his command center and an ambulance was tipped over as his workers tried to evacuate hospitals. (Full story)

"Things are not good in New Orleans. It's very serious now," Zuschlag said.

Mayor: Thousands likely dead
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said Wednesday that the storm probably killed thousands of people in his battered and flood-stricken city.

"We know there is a significant number of dead bodies in the water," and others dead in attics, The Associated Press quoted Nagin as saying. When asked how many, he reportedly said: "Minimum, hundreds. Most likely, thousands."

Electricity was out for more than 2.3 million people in Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama and Florida.

Meanwhile, Katrina's effect on oil supplies and gas prices spread nationwide, prompting the White House to tap the U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

News of disruptions in the gas supply sparked runs on stations and a sharp spike in prices, with some drivers in Atlanta, Georgia, facing prices above $5 a gallon. (Economic impact)

The operators of two key pipelines that carry fuel out of the region announced Thursday that they were resuming limited operations.

In New Orleans, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was using helicopters to drop 15,000-pound sandbags into breaches in the city's levee system -- the first step in trying to control the flooding that submerged most of the city. (See video on levee repairs -- 3:53)

The flow of water into New Orleans from Lake Pontchartrain finally abated, Corps officials said. But engineers won't begin trying to pump out the water until the breaches are plugged. (Recovery efforts)

Mississippi death toll rising
The breadth of the brutality of Hurricane Katrina became clearer as more death toll figures began to filter in from Mississippi's coastal region.

Authorities said at least 185 people died in Monday's Category 4 storm.

In Hancock County alone, Sheriff Eddie Jennings put the death toll at 85, with 60 people dead in Pearlington, 22 in Waveland, two in Bay St. Louis and one body that had washed up on the beach.

In neighboring Harrison County, which is home to Gulfport and Biloxi, authorities reported 100 bodies had been found, an emergency official in the state capital, Jackson, told CNN.

Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.”

“Well Mutt, that would seem to be a reasonable question to ask.

But walk your ass to where exactly?

It's not like they have cash for a hotel and the folks in cars would be there first anyway. So then what? Maybe you could find a hurricane shelter but on foot in a strange town that is in panic mode? That would be tough to do. So then you have to rely on help from absolute strangers. I'd like to think folks would be more accomdating in a situation like this but I'm guessing that a poor, dirty, uneducated, inner city black man being well received when he knocks on a door looking for shelter is a long shot. I guess you would have to deathgrip a tree in hurricane winds or break into a house.

What if you have small childeren or an infirm person in tow?

It really is a damned if you do damned if you don't proposition.

I dunno, personally I'd like to think that if it were me I'd find a way but I've got quite a few advantages going for me.”

“Same here, hpm.

But take an inner city family with very little reserve money and no transportation.

Hell, it is a long walk just to get across the Lake from NO.

Now, think about packing food, shelter and water for several days. As a backpacker, getting far enough inland on foot before this storm would have been a challenge.”

“I just saw last night on BBC news what has happened to New Orleans. Had classes the past two full days and had no idea that the levees broke and the flooding was so severe. I knew other areas had been demolished by the hurricane but nothing this bad. OMG...these poor poor people. My favorite city is....well, we know what it is now.....unbelieveable.....”

“Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen? 'Times-Picayune' Had Repeatedly Raised Federal Spending Issues:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313”

“I think there should have been more preparedness ahead of the storm, but I don't think the comparision with help overseas is a good one.
Even with the Tsunami, the help took time to get there, certainly longer than this. It's been what, three days now.”

“I heard an interesting proposal on the radio station this morning.
Some guy suggested using FEMA money to make the 12,000 abandoned homes in Detroit habitable, and housing NO refugees there.
The refuges get a home, Detroit gets and influx of cash and jobs.”

“Another thing.
Ever took a long walk in the deep south in August?

That alone can be hellish.”

“The gaining of control is what's baffling to me. There are way too few people to control the looters. We can get boots on the ground anywhere in the world in a day, this is Thursday, where are they. Pres. Bush needs to get the fed in high gear.”

“where are they - I think that's pretty obvious.”