Israelis Say Katrina is God's Wrath

“for making the settlers leave Gaza.

http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=676”

“Yikes, what nuts

You might note that these are Israeli's who are opposed to the current government of Israel and are angry with George Bush.”

“ped ...I'm trying to find from the Islamic kook side. I'm sure they feel Katrina happened because of what we're doing in Iraq. My point being religious fanatics are the same no matter what side they're on.”

“I knew the religious nuts would say this was God's wrath for some reason or another. I read on another site about Christian fundamentalists that think it was wrath agains the "Gay Mardi Gras" that was scheduled for the end of this week & weekend.

I guess none of the whackos want to hear that hurricanes hit all over the US, all during hurricane season. Sigh.

Edit: I see there is another thread already about the Christian whackos. BTW, I am Christian, and no, I don't agree with the whackos.
last edited: 9/01/05 7:55:55 AM”

“There are some who would tell the Israelis that their issues could be God's wrath because they didn't kill everyone he told them to in the OT.
I have a loving Christain God myself. He even loves gay people.”

“He even loves gay people.

Why wouldn't She? After all, sexual orientation is hardly a moral issue...”

“Exactly. When I say He it's a generic term. Who am I to pin a sex on God?


(I'm not biting Mutt. Maybe someone else will though.)
last edited: 9/01/05 8:15:25 AM”

“"Exactly"

Well, you've come a long way to being a decent person (or at least I thought that you used to consider homosexuality a sin).”

“I'm not biting Mutt.

Because you have no defense for your beliefs. Ah well, I thought you had changed, but you're still scum.”

“You want me to bite you? ;P”

“Just ignore me - I haven't had my caffeine yet this morning.”

“Watch out for bites from stray mutts.

Rabies, ya know.”

“You're right Sol there has got to be a Moslem Fundie site that says Allah is punishing us.

BTW: It turns out your Israeli site is a Christian website that supports the right wing zealots in Israel:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/173/story_17395_1.html”

“That's a lotta zeal!!!”

“My take is that God is still pissed at Trent Lott for his comments at the Strom Thurmond party. Seems a good old fashioned lightning strike would have been neater.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/30/katrina.lott/”

“pedxing,
If this is a Christian site, they are putting out some very mixed messages. This article is from another site but imbedded in Jerusalem Newswire site. I'm not sure a true Christian site would agreed with the premise developed about halfway through the article.
According to Revelation from what I've gathered and heard secondhand (I'm no student of the Bible) during the end times Jews will either be converted to Christianity or be killed or sent to Hell.
This article says something different I think. Does anyone who is a student of the Bible or Revelation want to put their two cents worth in? Here's the article.

http://www.whycross.com/X_Jewish.html”

“One must be very careful as to where they get their JEwish perspective from. If it doesn't come from a Jewish site it's not a Jewish perspective. There are many, many, far too many christian messianic groups and sites that pose as being Jewish.”

“In hindsight I can't say what a true Christian website would be. In my opinion it would be a centered on the philosophy of Jesus and reject the organized practice and structure of religion. I can say that from what I've experienced Christian fundametalists would not agree with this article. But most Christian fundamentalists are Christian-Zionists and back Israel all the way. Is this one of those Noahide sites?”

“It's not a Noahide thing. B'nai Noach have nothing to do with christianity. Christianity is christianity and Judaism is Judaism. No mixing of the two.”

“So what are some sites that give the true jewish perspective? I would think their are as many "flavors" of Judaism as there are Christian denominations. Torah believing Jews aren't the same as Babylonian Talmud believing Jews are they?”

““So what are some sites that give the true jewish perspective?"

Perspectives on what, Katrina? I have no idea as the sites I mostly visit (frum and orthodox) do not go into questioning or placing G-d's wrath on events. I have read one chassidic rabbi's blog that I highly respect and he did offer some things that are very compelling and do cause me to stop and think but I'm not even offering this up as this is a useless endeavor to discuss and question G-d's will here.

"I would think their are as many "flavors" of Judaism as there are Christian denominations. Torah believing Jews aren't the same as Babylonian Talmud believing Jews are they?”

There are very few movements in Judaism compared to christianity.”

“No one can determine the specific motives or non-motives of God at times such as this, it's ridiculous. In fact, God tells us the rain falls on the just and the unjust 'just' the same. To correlate a specific natural disaster or any large-scale event and tie it in with a specific purpose of God is pure speculation and rather absurd. Who is to say such a thing? Pffft.”

“Sol - I guess it boils down to what a "true christian site" is. When I said Christian site, I meant a site put out by people who consider themselves Christian. Of course, there are a lot of groups that consider themselves Christian many (probably most) Christians would not want to be
identified with.”

“Not wanting to be rude or nosey but out of curiosity are you an ethnic Jew, a convert to Judaism, a Noahide Gentile, or something else? I ask because in the past you never struck me as a religious person. Now your posts are sprinkled with all sort of Judaic references with Zionist leanings. If you don't want to answer that's fine. Just wondering.”

“You’re not being rude SH.

I’m a pork lovin’ Gentile (through and through) who is a Noahide. I follow only the portion of the Torah that applies to non Jews (the Nations). I can not convert as of now and more importantly there‘s no need to. The Talmud tells us that the righteous Gentile (Noahide) is held in higher honor than the high priest of the Temple.

“Zionist leanings” means I’ve done my job well as I do not really share that side of me much. LOL! I am about as Zionist as one can get. I will not be satisfied until every single Jew is back home in a complete, whole and unified Israel and the Temple is rebuilt. Weather this is done with America’s and the world’s approval and help is of no import to me although scripture tells us it will be against both (Isaiah 53).”

“So Nigal, being a Gentile, is it okay for you to pork pigs?”

“I agree with your Zionist paragraph 100%.”

““So Nigal, being a Gentile, is it okay for you to pork pigs?”

Thankfully yes. Only Jews are forbidden from eating pork. The only thing Gentiles are forbidden to eat is anything that has been taken from a live animal. The animal must be dead before butchering.”

“No eggs then? Or cheese?”

“I'm talking meat here. Eggs and cheese are cool. Mountain oysters no.”

“Nigal, did you hear about the Arkansas fan who died trying to eat mtn oysters? Hog drug him to death.”

“So you can't pork a live animal?”

“Sometimes I just hang out in certain threads for a long time without even posting because of that girl in the white bikini in the "Body Shape By Hydroderm" ad.”

“"I will not be satisfied until every single Jew is back home in a complete, whole and unified Israel and the Temple is rebuilt."

Nigal

Are we talkin' ethnic cleansing here?

I'd rather my Jewish friends were'nt removed and relocated......against their will.
last edited: 9/01/05 8:32:21 PM”

“"I'm trying to find from the Islamic kook side. I'm sure they feel Katrina happened because of what we're doing in Iraq. My point being religious fanatics are the same no matter what side they're on."
-Solitary Hiker

Um, actually, I think al Qaeda already claimed that...”

“Or the rightful owners, the Palestinians.”

“Or the rightful owners, the Palestinians.

Oh good lord, you are such a fool.”

““Nigal, did you hear about the Arkansas fan who died trying to eat mtn oysters? Hog drug him to death.”

How did this gem slip by me? HAHA!! Damn man, your store of great jokes never runs out!”

“Why do you believe the Israelis should be able to steal a land that doesn't belong to them?”

“Nigal - I stole that one from chili. The joke, not the oyster.”

“And let me guess, it was a Bama fan and not an Arky fan, right? LOL!”

““Or the rightful owners, the Palestinians.

Oh good lord, you are such a fool.”
Mutt
8:06:42 AM
9/02/05

Another careful, evidence based, rebuttal.”

“One Jewish view...

http://web.israelinsider.com/views/6508.htm

One rabbi's views...

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/6498.htm

A few things to consider...

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/6476.htm

Keep in mind these articles do not necessarily reflect my own feelings or views so don’t flame me for their content. I’m just providing you with what you asked about. Any and all objections and/or flames concerning the above articles can be sent to editor@israelinsider.com
last edited: 9/06/05 9:59:07 AM”

“Thanks Nigal. I appreciate your effort in finding these articles. For obvious reasons the second article fits my worldview. For some reason my computer at work would not let me access the third article. I'll do that tonight.

As I get older I find that religious fundamentalism, as it exists today and in all varieties, seems to be anathema to the concept of what God is or isn't. To me it seems fundamentalism's goal is not to make man like God but to make God like man. And I mean man in his lowest, base form. That is, full of fire, revenge, and eye-for-an-eye hatred. It's ugly.

I am nominally a Christian. What I really believe in is the philosophy of jesus. I don't practise it everyday but I know it is the right way. Shame on me. The philosophy of jesus is simple. He said it was so simple a child could understand it. In the 22nd Chapter of Matthew this is how he explained it.

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The way I see it the philosophy of jesus is the same as the philosophy of buddha, the philosoply of abraham, the philosophy of mohamad, and all the other earthly prophets.

Religion is not philosophy and IMO more of a problem for man that a solution.
last edited: 9/06/05 11:57:56 AM”

““As I get older I find that religious fundamentalism, as it exists today and in all varieties, seems to be anathema to the concept of what God is or isn't. To me it seems fundamentalism's goal is not to make man like God but to make God like man. And I mean man in his lowest, base form. That is full of fire, revenge, and eye-for-an-eye hatred. It's ugly.”

We can not make G-d man or man G-d. I’m often perplexed when people (generally the fundie Christians) make G-d out to be some vengeful, angry and mean G-d of retribution and then suddenly when baby Jesus is born G-d has suddenly become this grandfatherly figure that sits in the clouds and loves everyone. Much of the fire and brimstone type imagery that is portrayed by people in the OT is due to simple ignorance.

G-d is G-d. He can not be a human man. He does not think as we think. He does not exist as we exist. For us to put some type of human characteristics on Him is simply our human pride being applied in an effort to make G-d understandable. For example; we always refer to G-d as He, or Him. G-d is not a male or female yet we call Him “Him” so we can wrap our heads around the concept of a Supreme Being. When we see G-d acting in a way that we see as mean, evil, or brimstone-ish we don’t have all the information an omnipotent being has to form the whole of the situation.

“I am nominally a Christian. What I really believe in is the philosophy of jesus. I don't practise it everyday but I know it is the right way. Shame on me. The philosophy of jesus is simple. He said it was so simple a child could understand it. In the 22nd Chapter of Matthew this is how he explained it.”

Exactly. I agree 110% with this philosophy. Why? Because it comes straight from the Hebrew scriptures and is the cornerstone of Judaism itself. Observant Jews know it by heart and pray it twice daily. It’s the Shema…


Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohaynu Adonai Echad.
Barukh Shem k'vod malkhuto l'olam va-ed
V-ahavta et Adonai Elohecha b-chol l'vavcha u-v-chol naf'sh'cha u-v-chol m'odecha.
V-hayu ha-d'varim ha-ayleh asher anochi m'tzav'cha ha-yom al l'vavecha.
V-shinantam l-vanecha, v-dibarta bam
b-shivt'cha b-vaytecha, u-v-lecht'cha ba-derech, u-v-shachb'cha u-v-kumecha.
U-k'shartam l'ot al yadecha, v-hayu l-totafot bayn aynecha.
U-chtavtam al m'zuzot baytecha u-vi-sharecha.

Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
Blessed be the Name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart.
And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall speak of them
when you sit at home, and when you walk along the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Many of the great things and concepts that Jesus taught that people say is such an awesome way to live and is such a great alternative to Judaism COME from Judaism. You do well to live by these tenants Sol. Each and every man and woman is bound to this.




Your faith is a lot like mine. You take the core and leave the bullcrap. My faith is a spiritual moral code and has little religion to it.”

“I like this, from the second of Nigal's links:

"The Talmud says that anyone who gives a grieving person an explanation that the victim's sins caused his own suffering has violated the prohibition of verbal abuse."

I felt this way reading the book of Job. It also seems hubristic for a human to judge another's realtionship with God or to decide who is being punished and who is being tested.
last edited: 9/06/05 5:44:02 PM”

“Sol: My grandfather was a minister and a very devout man... and followed many prohibitions most people don't follow he wouldn't drink, play cards or do business with anyone who stayed open on the Sabbath. Still, he said that he followed these prohibitions partly out of respect for his parents. The passage you cite was probably his favorite passage from the Bible. It's certainly the one I most clearly remember him referring to and he felt it conveyed the essence of Christianity.”

““I felt this way reading the book of Job. It also seems hubristic for a human to judge another's realtionship with God or to decide who is being punished and who is being tested.”

In the book I’m reading right now this rabbi is teaching how every single thing happens for a reason and we must see the significance in the good as well as the bad. Sometimes we cause our own problems through our actions. I am a strong believer in the concept of karma. Hashem uses the same concept to steer us towards the way to go sometimes. I can remember many times in my life having wronged someone and soon after being wronged in the exact same way. I made the connection and changed. Sometimes things are shown to us in small ways and sometimes in big ways. It’s a great concept for personal conduct when it’s on the small scale but when big things happen in a big way like natural disasters and such; it’s best to leave it alone because it’s way above our pay grade.”

“Good dialog nigal and ped,
Nigal I think some Christian fundamentalist are fire and brimestone because of the OT. I mean it is there. Read Duteronomy. The god of the Israelites tells them to do some very bad things to people and IMO for scant reason. I could never quite grasp it.

I can remember sitting in church and they would preach the OT and I would just hate it. Death and killing men, women, children, slaves, and oxen because God told them to. The whole thing smacked of lunacy to me then and now.

The next week they teach the Sermon on the Mount or the story of the woman caught in adultry. BTW the lesson taught in the adultress story (universal human rights, judgement, forgiveness) was a very advanced concept considering that women were chattel in that age. The Rabbi Jesus taught some very radical stuff and he was wise as a fox. I guess that is why I don't go to church much anymore although I'm in one of the most liberal denominations you can be in. I'm Episcopalian.

Now I think that Torah Jews consider the first five books of the OT as their holy scripture. And you quote a section that talks about loving God. Does it go on to said that man should love one another? I ask because I've read some very bad things about what Talmudic Judaism teachs and just who they consider as true men deserving equality. It gets down to what exactly does being God's chosen people mean? What rights does it confer and what obligations does it entail? I don't know enough about it to say what is true or not. It would be interesting to find out.
last edited: 9/06/05 6:32:59 PM”