Asleep at the wheel

“The announcement yesterday by Chertoff that what happened in New Orleans could not have been predicted is further evidence of the incompetence of the Bush administration. There are several on this site who have said Bush should not be blamed for the response to Katrina, while at the same time many prominent Republicans who are on the record as in fact blaming Bush. Couple this with Rice's assertion that nobody could have predicted that the events of 9/11 could have happened, plus the bogus reasons for the invasion of Iraq, and you have a presidency that is completely and utterly asleep at the wheel.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.chertoff/index.html”

“You are putting me to sleep.”

“Typical head in the sand Bu#&%!$e.”

“Blaming this on the Feds is like blaming you're insurance company when they don't come to pick you up in an ambulance. Well, they weren't supposed to, the paramedics were supposed to do that.

Here's a case where the first response failed, the Fed's were never expected to provide the first response to a disaster, they provide the secondary response, and they're doing so, but that secondary response takes time to organize no matter how long in advance you try to prepare. So why are people blaming the federal government for not doing something no one expected to do beforehand?”

“bacpac, let me be the first to warn you that you could die in your sleep. It is a possiblity. Just wanted to warn you since like some republicans in the Bush Administration you might claim you were not warned it could happen.”

“Where is FEMA?

FEMA was turning around trucks with fuel and water because it didn't go through FEMA channels. One Mayor said he was looking at 50 trucks full of water, ice and supplies and the FEMA guy said he couldn't release one for this guys city. You tell the people in his city that the Feds are doing their job.”

“So why didn't the locals follow the procedure mtnsteve? The whole idea is to have an efficient response, FEMA needs to know what the critical areas are on the ground, what if they had unloaded those trucks at that mayor's town when there was more need somewhere else? Then they'd be blamed for that.”

“"Blaming this on the Feds is like blaming you're insurance company when they don't come to pick you up in an ambulance. Well, they weren't supposed to, the paramedics were supposed to do that." -Bison

Wrong. Blaming the Feds is like blaming the feds because thay didn't heed the warnings of what could happen to New Orleans in a hurricane. Bush appointee Chertoff claimed he didn't know such a disaster could happen. I think millions of people knew it could happen. Bush was playing golf while this disaster was playing out. They were clueless.
last edited: 9/04/05 3:00:55 PM”

“They weren't clueless, they were prepared to provide a secondary response, which is all anyone expected beforehand, and ended up in a situation where the first response failed and now they're being blamed for it, why?

It's not too constructive to blame people who were prepared for what they were expected to provide. This is a situation where there was a need to provide something that noone expected them to provide beforehand. The expectation is that the locals provide the first response, and in many cases they just didn't. How can you blame the feds for that?

If in the future you want the Feds to provide a first response to a disaster (Which for a number of reasons would be an incredibly dumb idea) then fine. But don't blame them for a problem that wasn't theirs to begin with.

What Chertoff is saying is exactly that, they weren't prepared to provide a first response, but then, they weren't expected to be prepared for that. They expected to move in in the days following the disaster (Which is what they are doing) to follow up on the situation that was stabilized by the local authorities, but the locals never stabilized the situation in many cases (and in some cases that's no one's fault either, they were just overwhelmed, and in some cases it certainly is the fault of the locals).

FEMA was prepared to do what it has done countless times before, and the model is proven and it works in the vast majority of disasters. In this case the model was busted, OK, that's just the way it is and we'll have to reevaluate afterwards, but that doesn't mean you blame people for being prepared to do what's worked so many times in the past.
last edited: 9/04/05 3:10:21 PM”

“How do you know the locals weren't. The mayor said he had been asking for help for days. I have done Search and Rescue, I have worked floods and fires, you give folks what they need if you have it.

It's like watching a house catch on fire with a fire truck parked in the street and having the fireman tell you, sorry we may need to help someone else later.

You don't tell someone who hasn't had water for days you have to wait and see if someone else needs it more, you take care if who you have, with what you have.

I would have taken the damn truck and told the FEMA SOB to sue me.
last edited: 9/04/05 3:11:30 PM”

“What was the situation in that guys town, you stated that he was told they couldn't be released because they hadn't gone through channels, that would lead me to assume they didn't follow a procedure that they're probably well versed in (doesn't necessarily mean its the towns fault, one of the huge problems is that there is no communications infrastructure left). Why didn't this guy, instead of getting pissed, ask who he needed to contact to get some supplies released, like a responsible person would have done?”

“You don't have a clue.

You give starving people food and people who need water, water. You don't tell them, you'll have to come back when you have your paper work filled out.”

“The FEMA guy is lucky he wasnt shot.”

“Who says they were starving (No one who ate the day before the hurricane was starving or is starving yet unless they were malnourished to begin with)? Or out of water, for all I know this mayor didn't have a clue... Not necessarily saying he didn't, but I've seen at least one Mayor (Nagin) who obviously didn't have a clue about what was happening.”

“NM”

“Well mtnsteve then find out exactly what the situation was instead of expressing blame for one situation where all you're able to report is the most general overview. What was the situation in that mayor's town? Who had they contacted? Where were those supplies supposed to go? Were those trucks trying to get through to somewhere else? Were they stopped by this mayor? Did this mayor actually end up preventing supplies from reaching a critical area before they could have gotten there?

Try figuring out what the situation really was before assigning blame.”

“CNN: "Mayor: Police, firefighters traumatized
Nagin said Sunday that his top priority was to start moving traumatized police and firefighters out of the city so that they can get medical and psychological treatment.

"They've been holding the city together for three or four days, almost by themselves -- doing everything imaginable, and the toll is just to much for them," Nagin said. "So I need to get them out, and we've been trying to figure out where to take them so they can reunite with their families." Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said that two of his officers committed suicide, including one who had discovered his wife had died."

There you go, Bison, blame the first responders.”

“I didn't blame them USA and I'm not surprised to see that you can't make the distinction, I said the first response failed (a statement of fact, not an assignment of blame), in some cases that was due to the first responders themselves (like up to 60% of NO police in some precints simply abandoning the force) in others the resources were simply inadequate, not through anyone's lack of planning, but in the some cases just because the odds of something of this magnitude happening are so small that it just doesn't make sense to be that prepared, in most cases there probably just is no blame, everybody just did the best they, before, during, and after, and it just wasn't going to be enough.”

“Nobody was clueless here; everyone knew exactly what was at stake. The problem however, is that we, whether as a nation, locally, or the administration, chose not to adequately prepare. Just straight and simple negligence.

And to me, that's what is absolutely unacceptable.”

“When you have people that need water and you have it, you give it to them.

Thats pretty damn simple.”

“Sorry, Bison, guess I should have posted the link to prevent you from making a fool of yourself.

"Compass also said that reports that 60 percent of the police force had deserted was "totally ridiculous."



http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.impact/index.html”

“Hmmmmm....

I saw an interview with a police officer on the ground who stated that more than half of his precint just simply left...

Sounds like the police chief maybe is the fool.

Who's word am I going to believe first, the guy on the ground who's been to his precint and tried to contact others, or a chief operating from above and removed from the situation who's maybe trying to cover his own ass?
last edited: 9/04/05 4:00:10 PM”

“So that means all the cops did? In all the areas? In all the state?
last edited: 9/04/05 4:02:10 PM”

“No mtnsteve and I never said that, read my previous post, in many cases I'm sure everybody did all that they could, one fact of life that you have to eventually get used to is that that isn't always going to be enough. In most cases here it just wasn't and like it or not, there's no one to blame for that. It's just the way it is and you have to move on from there.”

“Have you ever done anything like the work they are doing? Have you ever stuffed children in body bags? Have you ever carried someone? Have you ever gone for days without sleep to help others?”

“No mtnsteve, but what's the point of your questions, you're obviously far to emotional to be making a reasoned argument. Are you still continuing to say that I blamed the first responders (Can you like USA, not read, or understand the difference between saying that the first response failed, as opposed to placing blame?)”

“And Psoul I also question exactly to what extent there is any negligence here. Yes everyone knew what could happen. They also knew what the odds were of it happening, and they based the myriad of decisions that led to the level of preparedness on that.

Do you carry the absolute maximum amount of car insurance coverage that you could? I expect not. So if you end up accidently causing more damage than you're covered for are you negligent? Not necessarily, because when you made the decision about how much coverage to carry you had to think about a lot of other things. You had to balance how much you make, what other things you want and need etc... against the chances that you'll be in a major wreck.

Well the same thing goes on here. Yes you could adopt a bunker mentality and be absolute completely prepared for something like this.

But at what expense?

Do you stop funding music education? Do you pull funding for low income housing? Do you raise taxes and make the citizenry decide on what they'll have to do without?”

“"I said the first response failed (a statement of fact, not an assignment of blame), in some cases that was due to the first responders themselves (like up to 60% of NO police in some precints simply abandoning the force" - Bison

It's pretty clear that was not a fact and you were blaming.”

“Right now I am too emotional, so I'm going to walk away.

I'm glad we're not in the same room.”

“USA, why don't you try posting the entire sentence? Because you're not a big fan of context?

Anyone who wants to know that you're not capable of making a reasonable argument only has to scroll up and read the original post.”

“I'm glad we're not in the same room.”
mtnsteve
4:15:00 PM
9/04/05

Me too.
last edited: 9/04/05 4:20:02 PM”

“If money was spent to send in Federal Troops and equipment before hand and the Hurricane fizzles, people would complain about the incompetence and wasteful spending.

Everyone has a crystal ball after the fact.”

“Amen, I'm sure when things shake out there will be some blame to push around. But right now I expect that there won't be nearly as much blame as people wish there was. Hindsight is as the cliche goes 20/20 and it's easy to forget that in the midst of a disaster. But sometimes things happen that are just beyond what is a reasonable level of preparedness. In the course of everyday life it doesn't necessarily make sense to be completely prepared for everything that might, could, will someday in the future but you're not sure when,.... happen. There are compromises to be made, and you forget in the middle of the mess what you else you got by not being completely prepared. You used thosed resources for other things, and you weren't necessarily wrong for doing that. It's a balance, and sometimes things move out of balance and that's just how it goes and you have to respond, but there's no one really to blame even if it would make you feel better to do so, it's just the way it is.”

“You have missed the point of this thread.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defending the U.S. government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff argued Saturday that government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur.

But in fact, government officials, scientists and journalists have warned of such a scenario for years.

Chertoff, fielding questions from reporters, said government officials did not expect both a powerful hurricane and a breach of levees that would flood the city of New Orleans.


Since you don't understand this point, here it is in plain English:

Bush's appointee Chertoff is an idiot. That makes Bush responsible.”

“I just hope that when it's all over that people realize that there are situations everyday where tragedy has left people homeless, without food or electricity. It's real easy to see major castrophes such as this and be eager to help. Don't forget that your help is needed everyday. Don't let the goodwill end here.”

“It happened once in 200 years. Yeah, Bush should have planned for that. Using a natural disaster for political purposes is pretty scummy.”

“"It happened once in 200 years. Yeah, Bush should have planned for that." -bacpac

Exactly! That's the faulty logic of the Bush administration. Bush didn't think it could happen so did nothing. Bush ignored the scientific warnings. Period”

“And neither did FDR, nor Truman, nor Eisenhower, nor Kennedy, nor Johnson, nor Nixon, nor Ford, nor Carter, nor Reagan, nor Bush I, nor Clinton (and neither would have either Gore or Kerry except maybe in your fantasy world).

They all had compromises to make, they all had a whole country to run (not just the Gulf Coast). They all had to make a hundred decisions a day that effect millions of lives and none of them did as much as could be done. I suspect their reasons were reasonable.
last edited: 9/04/05 4:55:09 PM”

“It reminds me of the classic Condi line: "No one could have ever imagined airliners being used as missiles..."

Where do they find these people? Get someone on the job who has a clue.


I suppose you heard Hastert's comment, wondering aloud in front of a live microphone whether New Orleans should be rebuilt... This morning I heard that he didn't get back to DC to vote on the relief bill because he had to attend a fundraiser ------- and it wasn't for hurricane relief.”

“This Bush administration has made it policy to avoid warnings it didn't like. Scientists are bad news to Bush. Global warming is a myth.”

“Friday, September 2nd, 2005
Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane
Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be
airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military
choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a
Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could
really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do
like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to
begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye
of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1
then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today,
there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said
this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did
anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation
and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had
fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and
smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of
flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your
business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after
all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your
finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how
you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New
Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them
that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there
weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because
you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING
DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say
I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the
clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look
of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn
and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been
there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and
try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that
out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted
this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting
hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them
and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing
unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having
one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that
30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands
had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I
mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine
leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me
laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army
helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans
and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
http://www.michaelmoore.com/

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your
ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are
now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the
way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on
September 21st.

http://www.bringthemhomenowtour.org/userdata_display.php?modin=50

”

“Chertoff or whatever his name is should be fired. The same goes for the head idiot over at FEMA whose last name is Brown. Homeland Security and FEMA should be disbanded. We're better off without them and think of the money in taxes we could save.

Come to think of it, too bad this hurricane didn't hit Washington, DC. That would solve a lot of our problems.”

“Here is an idea. Instead of all the Monday morning quarterbacking why not write a check?

Blaming the Hurricane on Global Warming is crack pot science.”

“Ah! Good old fashioned American bltching and whining at it’s best! We are giving the French a run for their money in the boohoo “woe ways me!” department.”

“Asleep at the Wheel is a great band. I saw them a couple times in Austin, including a great concert at the Old Armadillo World Headquarters.”

“oops, apparantly it didn't like the term bush-ite”

“Do you pronounce the 'T' in 'bu#&%!$e'... or no?

Bu-#&%!$e?


er... Bus-hite?


hm.”

“For all those who say the Feds aren't responsible, please address what I found on the Homeland Security Website:



Preparing America

"In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS."

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp”

“Moore eloquently put in writing all the points I've made this past week on these different threads. Thanks for the info on Hastert... wasn't aware of that.”

“*Bump to keep Moore's letter up here.”