Mr. President, get off your dead ass!

“In the Pew survey, 67 percent of 1,000 adults interviewed by telephone Sept. 6-7 said Bush could have done more to speed up relief efforts; 28 percent said he did everything possible.
[...]
The Pew survey shows Bush's support among Republicans is strong but slipping, and since his support among Democrats and self-described independents remains consistent, Bush's declining approval is linked directly to that slippage within his own party.
[...]
Among those who identify themselves as ``conservative Republicans,'' Bush's job approval declined seven percentage points from the July survey and by 11 percentage points among those who describe themselves as ``moderate Republicans.''
[...]
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aRkZB.b60HiY&refer=us”

“Looks like Bush has NO chance of winning another election.”

“Looks pretty bad for those Republicans too.


”

“BBW:

As RL pointed out, you just reportedthe Karl Rove Spin on the Poll #s.

As RL noted, more people in the poll (42%) said Bush's repsonse was terrible than said it was great (35%). The same percentages applied for the Feds as a whole. Not only that, but more people thought State and Local responses were great than thought Bush or the Feds were great:

State and local officials' response was described as "bad" or "terrible" by 35 percent and "good" or "great" by 37 percent.

And, the numbers you cite on who's to blame primarily show more (31%) picking Bush or the Federal Agencies than blaming State or Local (25%).

I think your view of the world comes from reading right wing sources and not checking the primary source. The fact that the right wing spin machine is eager to make it look like State and Locals are being blame more than Feds, shows how intensely they are playing the blame and finger pointing game.

It looks to me that there were failures at all levels. If I had a vote now, I wouldn't re-elect the Mayor, the Govenor or the President - but I won't have a chance to vote against any of them and I don't think any of them are up for election this year, so the arguments can wait. I hope people lay off the blame game for a while. At this point, people really are doing the best they can - and the best way they can fight for their jobs is to perform well. At this point, voicing anger and rage - while hugely understandable - is a distraction from getting the job done.”

“Mountain your Gallup "spin" was spin. It was the same poll BBW and RL mentioned. It leaves off the fact that more people picked Bush or the agencies he runs, than picked "sate or Local officials) - don't know where you got the numbers but the fact they came out in such spun fashion indicates to me how busy Rove and buddies are at playing the blame game.”

“Violin: interestingly, the polls you cite still include on interesting piece of news: John Kerry would still lose by 1% to Bush, although any of the previous four presidents are preferred. This indicates some major challenges and problems for the Democrats.”

“Dems Used Katrina to Raise Funds

Friday, September 09, 2005
Associated Press

WASHINGTON — A new Democratic effort to whip up indignation about the Bush administration's handling of Hurricane Katrina (search) also tried to raise money for Democratic candidates.

Sen. Charles Schumer (search), a New York Democrat and the head of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, issued an appeal Thursday urging people to sign an online petition to fire the Federal Emergency Management Agency's director over his handling of the Katrina response.

After an inquiry from the Associated Press, the DSCC quickly pulled down the page and said they would give the Red Cross any money raised by the anti-FEMA petition.

When recipients clicked on a link to the petition, the top center of the screen — above the call to "Fire the FEMA director" — had asked for a donation to the DSCC.

Since Katrina, Democrats have contended the GOP administration badly botched the response, and some have called for the firing of FEMA chief Michael Brown (search).

Republicans hit back by accusing Democrats of trying to use the human tragedy for political gain. The DSCC letter, the GOP said Thursday, was proof.

"It's a disgrace to exploit Hurricane Katrina to raise political funds," said Brian Nick, spokesman for the National Republican Senatorial Committee.

DSCC spokesman Phil Singer said: "While the content of the letter is totally valid, it should never have been linked to a Web site that asks people to contribute to political campaigns."”

““Violin: interestingly, the polls you cite still include on interesting piece of news: John Kerry would still lose by 1% to Bush, although any of the previous four presidents are preferred. This indicates some major challenges and problems for the Democrats.”

Or it just means Kerry's a doofus.”

“How Reliable Is Brown's Resume?:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1103003,00.html”

“pedxing: Mountain your Gallup "spin" was spin. It was the same poll BBW and RL mentioned. It leaves off the fact that more people picked Bush or the agencies he runs, than picked "sate or Local officials)

This is the order, in order of percent picked: Look at #3.

1. nobody
2. act of God (nature)
3. state/local officials
4. federal agencies
5. at 13% - Bush”

“Let me be more specific pedxing. I'll use the question that best answers your concern.

Here is the question in question and the results:

"Who do you think is MOST responsible for the problems in New Orleans after the hurricane: George W. Bush, federal agencies, or state and local officials -- or is no one really to blame?" (Options rotated)

1. 38% - nobody
2. 25% - state/local officials
3. 18% - federal agencies
4. 13% - Bush
5. 6% - Unsure”

“http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/07/katrina.poll/index.html
"Respondents also disagreed widely on who is to blame for the problems in the city following the hurricane -- 13 percent said Bush, 18 percent said federal agencies, 25 percent blamed state or local officials and 38 percent said no one is to blame."

13+18 is more than 25.”

“Even if you add all federal agencies and Bush, you get 31% which is 6% more than 25% for state/local officials.

( I edited this because I computed incorrectly the first time )

pedxing - Are you saying that Bush is responsible by nature of being President for all the actions of the federal agencies, plus his own count?
last edited: 9/09/05 11:52:35 AM”

“I see your problem.

Fuzzy Republican math.”

“I would say that that is spin pedxing. You're taking a poll and adding 2 numbers to make a new category, and you're blaming Republicans of spin? Very odd.”

“By your spin method pedxing, 69% versus 31%.

Bush has half the blame of any other category.

How is that for spin?”

“does Buck know he stops here”

“violin - Sounds like you've already decided who the public should blame.”

“"Anyone who cares about responsible budgeting and the health of
America's rivers and wetlands should pay attention to a bill now
before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The bill
would shovel $17 billion at the Army Corps of Engineers for flood
control and other water-related projects - this at a time when
President Bush is asking for major cuts in Medicaid and other
important domestic programs. Among these projects is a $2.7 billion
boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection
by the National Academy of Sciences. This is a bad piece of
legislation."
--New York Times Editorial, April 5, 2005

"The 17th Street levee that gave way and led to the flooding of New
Orleans was part of an intricate, aging system of barriers and pumps
that was so chronically underfinanced that senior regional officials
of the Army Corps of Engineers complained about it publicly for
years."
--New York Times Editorial, Sept. 1, 2005”

“Wanderer: I've read the last two pages. While I usually end up regretting commenting on hostility between other posters, I have some comments to make.

1) When I see you talking about liking to "point out the facts & watch the self-proclaimed liberal victims piss & moan" and throwing poersonal insults at others, it doesn't quite square with the contempt, pity and rage you exhibit over the tone and quality of the arguments here (indeed the things you say, while saying you aren't going to say them provide multiple contradictions).

2) Secondly, the low blow you aimed at Mark was uncalled for and appears to be in direct contrast to the standards of argument you seem to advocate. Moreover the blow missed - my wife and I have spent some time with Mark and family members (his wife and son) on the trail, on our home turf and on MarkOs. We have been consistently impressed by a thriving and successful family in which the family values and commitments of both parents show in the quality of their relationships with their kids (even one who I've met twice on the backpacking trips while in his teen years). Mark presents a model of a man who is unafraid of hard work and effort and proud of sevice to his country (I've often heard him speak proudly to his son about his service in the guard). If only the world had more families like his and more fathers like him.

Now, people with great work ethics who are fine family men or women can be dead wrong about things. They can say or do atrocious things on line. I'm not saying that he, or anyone (me included, of course!: I've said things here on TT that were wrong, and some I've regretted for other reasons) should be above criticism.”

“BBW:

As RL pointed out, you just reportedthe Karl Rove Spin on the Poll #s.
pedxing
11:24:39 AM
9/09/05


I cut and pasted the article from a NewsMax email I got. I am sorry I did not research it further.
last edited: 9/09/05 12:22:20 PM”

“Mtn: I'm saying that the number for Bush is misleading out of context - especially if you omitt the other numbers.

One category links all State and Local agencies and elected officials together. Surely it makes sense to put Bush and the agencies he controls and makes apointments to, together for comparison?

And yes, Mountain - I think Bush in his second term and with a Republican dominated congress that has done what he's wanted - who makes appointments to the agencies and whose appointees make budgets that pass through a Republican congress and which he signs, bears some responsibility for the quality of these agencies.

Harry Truman was a "the buck stops here" President. Bush is a pass the buck quickly President. We are seeing it once again. His spin meisters are deep into passing the buck, and it's getting old.

Two huge disasters take place on his watch, but:
Whodda thought that airplanes would be used to crash into buildings?
Whodda thought the levees would break?
How was I to know that the WMD case was overstated?
How was I to know the AL-Qeda connections to Saddam were over-stated?
The increase in poverty every year he's in office is because of the Clinton bubble.
Sky high oil prices are because of forces beyond our control.
The fact that the dollar dived against the Euro (which accounted for a great deal of the pre-Katrina gas price rise) on Bush's watch can't have any thing to do with the budget deficit or Bush policies.
The budget deficit: Gee whiz don't blame Bush, we had emergencies and congress just won't reign in spending. What, you expect me to veto a spending bill?

Sure Clinton say eight years of a rising economy, a growing budget surplus, and yeah his terrorism scares that were done to boost his re-election chances did lead to the capture of people who planned terrorist attacks for 2000 getting arrested - but most of our problems now are because of his mistakes.”

“pedxing - Gallup didn't ask that question in the way you are presenting it. You have "spun" the results. I mean, that IS the definition of spin. You don't know how the numbers would have turned out if you put them differently.

If you'll read your own response to this, (and violin's picture editorial), you'll see that what in fact you are telling us is what YOU think the public should think on this matter, not what the public has said.

If you want to pose this as your opinion, fine, but don't pose it as the public's opinion because the Gallup/CNN poll does not say that without "spinning" it as you have plainly done.”

“Looks like Browns being removed from running hirricane relief.
You're doing a hell of a job Brownie!”

“To change the topic a bit pedxing, what exactly did Bush fail to do?

Should he have taken over the state effort immediately? Shouldn't that be a state function by definition? Should he have presumed as soon as or before the hurricane hit that it would not be handled properly by the state/local governments?

Should the federal government be ready to respond to all natural disasters in any city of the U.S.? I believe that is a state and local function of government. Isn't it?”

“You have a link y2?”

““By your spin method pedxing, 69% versus 31%.
Bush has half the blame of any other category.
How is that for spin?”

mountainpeak
11:55:06 AM
9/09/05

That's pretty extreme, but it's in the direction Rove's blame throwers are going - every bit of blame we can shift is blame not pointed at Bush.

The problem for Bush is, that even people who put primary blame somewhere else tend to think Bush messed up bad. I certainly don't think, among all the humans involved, that Bush was more than 50% responsible or even near that. I think there is way too much blame to go around to give Bush that kind of blame. At the same time, its hard to escape the fact that he gets a meaningful slice of a very big and very ugly pie.

I'm not sure who is most responsible or if it makes sense to say who is most responsible. New Orleans and Louisiana corruption is huge. I've heard several people in disaster planning have said there were three worst case disaster scenarios they worried about for decades: 1) Terrorist attack in the heart of New York City, 2) Colossal earthquake in California, 3) Levee destruction and New Orleans under water.

Bush wasn't the first president to get a crack at upgrading the Levees.”

“We aren't going to play the blame game.”

“Mtn:

I was pointing out the consequences of only presenting the Bush number without the other numbers - it keeps people from the opportunity to do their own interpretations. I think mine is a valid one if all State and local agencies and individuals are grouped together - it's highly unfair to just take Bush in isolation, if you disagree, fine - but it's not right to omitt the other numbers altogether.

Telling and supporting my opinion is, from the poll results:
Forty-two percent of respondents characterized President Bush's response to the disaster as "bad" or "terrible."”

“so bbw are you saying you aren't playing, that you're serious?[b][b]”

“I never said that.”

“One reason why Bush was a little late ordering aid to NO:

”

“Powell slams storm effort 1 hour, 5 minutes ago (off yahoo news)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Colin Powell, the former U.S. secretary of state seen as a potential leader for Hurricane Katrina recovery efforts, has joined the chorus of Americans criticizing the disaster response at all levels of government.

"There have been a lot of failures at a lot of levels -- local, state and federal," Powell said in an ABC interview for the "20/20" program to be broadcast on Friday evening.

American political figures from both major parties have assailed the slow response to the hurricane's assault last week on the U.S. Gulf Coast, which devastated New Orleans and killed hundreds, possibly thousands, in the region.

"There was more than enough warning over time about the dangers to New Orleans. Not enough was done. I don't think advantage was taken of the time that was available to us, and I just don't know why," Powell said in excerpts on ABC's Web site.

He said he did not think that race was a factor in the slow response, but that many of those unable to leave New Orleans in time were trapped by poverty which disproportionately affects blacks.

Powell was the highest-ranking black official during U.S. President George W. Bush's first term and chairman of the military Joint Chiefs of Staff during the 1991 Gulf War. He is among various names mentioned in Washington as a potential "hurricane czar" to take over the long-term recovery effort.

Two senators from Bush's Republican party on Thursday proposed that such a job be created. White House officials have not ruled out the option, saying it is among several being discussed.

Some black leaders, including Democrats in Congress, have charged that racism contributed to the misery of New Orleans' predominantly black storm victims.

"I don't think it's racism, I think it's economic," Powell said. "But poverty disproportionately affects African-Americans in this country. And it happened because they were poor."”

“Mtn: I'm not really interested in assigning blame, other than to counter the Bush/Rove spin machine who is trying to push it all away from Bush. But since I said that Bsuh won't manage to do this, I should offer some response to you to back it up, but I will stick for now to very general terms. Later when things are more settled we will have a chance to dissect things more carefully.

The key place I fault Bush is that since 9/11 he massively reorganized homeland security. This reorganization included FEMA. He staffed the agencies. He claimed that this reorganization, the Patriot act and other costly and expensive steps were to make us all safer. Homeland Security (including FEMA and all the other agencies which are now part of it) was supposed to be able to step in and restore order, insure safety and save lives in the case of a natural or man made disaster. Bush and friends raised the threat of nuclear attacks on the US. If Federal agencies and military forces couldn't get into New Orleans efficiently and effectively to restore order, save lives and put together an orderly evacuation process with advance warning and advance requests - where would we be if a primitive nuclear device had destroyed the levees with no warning?

There is no way a Federal Government prepared to meet a greater terrorist attack would have taken so long to get operations underway and together.

I understand from American History that Herbert Hoover won the presidency because of how well he organized the disaster relief after the Mississippi flooding. It doesn't take an expert to see that we should have been able to do better. How long did it take us to beat Saddam the first time? How long did it take to beat him the second time? The contrast between those comparatively efficient governemnt led operations and this one is striking.”

“White House spokesman Scott McClellan said there is no need for confusion about who is running things.

"This is a massive catastrophe and it requires a massive response with all hands on deck," he said. "There are clear lines of authority and responsibility. ... Ultimately the president is in charge."


http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050908025209990009”

“Anyone think that maybe the Hurricane had something to do with all of this. I mean it was mother nature that hit the Gulf Coast. Not Bush, or State and Local Goverments. As all natural disaster's all come with lessons learned and this just being a rather big one.”

“pedxing: There is no way a Federal Government prepared to meet a greater terrorist attack would have taken so long to get operations underway and together.

I disagree. The state/local governments should be responsible for handling local natural disasters. The Federal gov't should only take over once it is shown that they are inept at doing their job, and only then because of humanitarian reasons.”

“Nope, it's blame shifting yrt again. FEMA is designed specifically to handle this situation where localities and states are overwhelmed. It's all part of the spin to blame anyone but members and the political appointments of the adminstration. Rove is working hard on this one. When localities can't cope FEMA is designed to be there to respond. It wasn't. Now I think a good job was being done. Having been told the reforms of the Bush Administration would make America safer, who can have any faith in that any longer?”

“Mtn: Let me post his again, from Homeland Security's own website:

"Preparing America

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness."

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp[i][i]”

“A storm that effects a large part of three states is not a "local natural disaster".

TT's own StoveStomper reported that he hasn't seen FEMA and there are no snipers and no broken levees in his Mississippi neighborhood.

There are plenty of Republicans and conservatives critical of the federal response. Everybody realizes there was a massive failure of government here except for the few who are so wedded to Bush, so personally invested in him that they can’t admit any sort of failing. They are really sticking out like sore thumbs right about now.

This is not a sports team - this is the government we have consented to in order to provide for our common security. Putting party over country in a case like this is unpatriotic.”

“BTW: Check this out from a very right wing fundamentalist Bush supporter (Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council):

F-Troop

There was a television show in the 1960's called F-Troop about an incompetent band of post-Civil War troops stationed at Fort Courage, somewhere west of the Missouri. Having been forced to deal with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and other government bureaus these last few days, I am reminded of this sitcom, except this is no comedy. While the hurricane was an "act of God" the government response and relief effort on the local, state and national levels were failures of man.

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=WU05I05&f=PG03I03”

“pedxing: Let me post this from the City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan

V. TASKS



A. Mayor

* Initiate the evacuation.

* Retain overall control of all evacuation procedures via EOC operations.

* Authorize return to evacuated areas.

B. Office of Emergency Preparedness

* Activate EOC and notify all support agencies to this plan.

* Coordinate with State OEP on elements of evacuation.

* Assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas.

* Assist ESF-8, Health and Medical, in the evacuation of persons with special needs, nursing home, and hospital patients in accordance with established procedures.

* Coordinate the release of all public information through ESF-14, Public Information.

* Use EAS, television, cable and other public broadcast means as needed and in accordance with established procedure.

* Request additional law enforcement/traffic control (State Police, La. National Guard) from State OEP.

C. New Orleans Police Department

* Ensure orderly traffic flow.

* Assist in removing disabled vehicles from roadways as needed.

* Direct the management of transportation of seriously injured persons to hospitals as needed.

* Direct evacuees to proper shelters and/or staging areas once they have departed the threatened area.

* Release all public information through the ESF-14, Public Information.

D. Regional Transit Authority

* Supply transportation as needed in accordance with the current Standard Operating Procedures.

* Place special vehicles on alert to be utilized if needed.

* Position supervisors and dispatch evacuation buses.

* If warranted by scope of evacuation, implement additional service.

E. Louisiana National Guard

* Provide assistance as needed in accordance with current State guidelines.

F. Animal Care and Control

* Coordinate animal rescue operations with the New Orleans SPCA.

G. Public Works

* Make emergency road repairs as needed.

H. Office of Communications

* Release all public information relating to the evacuation.

I'd encourage you to read the whole document. It is here: http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

It is clear that the local governments knew their responsbilities, and failed to follow through. It is clear that they knew that the federal government was to be in a supporting role for their efforts.”

“(Ironic, isn't it?)”

“I think everyone in all the governments involved should be fired. A pathetic effort at best, with feet still dragging -- and on top of all that, I'm pretty sure that actions are only being taken now because of all the noise that has been generated.

The Red Cross, a private organization, is kicking everyone's a$$ right now (or at least trying to -- when not hampered by the government), largely due to private contributions, no thanks to municipal, county/parish, state, or federal governments.

We ought to be ashamed of ourselves. And I'm really starting to question the selfishness of anyone who can't at least acknowledge this point of view...”

“Mtn: Time will tell how much the city of N.O. and the state of Louisiana didn't succeed in keeping to their plans because of ineptitude, poor preparation or because they were too battered to manage a disaster of that magnititde. The Feds are supposed to have a capability of moving in massively, approrpriately and in an organized fashion. They were forewarned, they had a state of emergency in effect and they didn't do their part.

Pointing the finger back at the locals and the state won't cut it. Calling the kettle black may avert some eyes, but it won't turn a black pot white.

This deceased mule has beeb flogged beyond reason.”

“I just had an image for a cartoon or SNL skit. Jeffrey Dahmer is up for parole. The families of victims have testified as to how his horrible crimes saved their lives. Scott
McClellan is Dahmers attorney, he gets up for his rebuttal and says: "There wounds would have healed by now, if the prosecutor would just won't quit playing the blame game."”

“Everyone seems to have forgotten one of the great tenets of our Democracy. States Rights.

The same liberals who cry 'Big Brother' when the FBI investigates a person for checking out a library book on 'How to build a Nuclear Bomb' are indignant that President Bush did not usurp the authority of the State Government of Louisiana.

It has been reported that the Governor of Louisiana would not turn over authority to the Feds during all night meetings with State and Federal authorites.”