Mr. President, get off your dead ass!

“You know, I see that picture of Bush and his dad fishing on the streets of New Orleans and all I can think of is this...

Eat the Fish!

Is that bad?

Anyway, I have a question.

Prior to becoming a shill for the Democratic Party, I was and still really am a moderate, middle-of-the-road kind of guy.

I would like nothing more than to get back to consensus politics where the good of the people come first.

And I think that the difficulties in New Orleans have a lot to do with the polarization of the parties in American politics.

How CAN a Democrat local and state government work with a Republican federal government when both sides are continually throwing Malatov cocktails at each other for political advantage even before disaster?

Right now, we have a FEMA headquarters in one place, a Louisiana emergency management center in another and the Mayor on some boat with his 10,000 bodies. I STILL don't think that this operation is running well, save for General Russell Honore.

But here is the question. Just behind Bush in all the Washington meetings on the crisis is Karl Rove. This is a man whose sole reason for existence is to destroy Democrats. Does someone who wants moderation in politics just decide to start acting moderately with the knowledge that it will be exploited by the other side? Or is the proper response to destroy the King of Polarization so that we can start fresh?

How can anyone be moderate in this day and age?”

“Its easy to be moderate. Ignore the politicians and do the right thing. Be part of the solution and avoid inflaming the problem. Adopt a quakeresque approach, avoid the pettiness, the namecalling the senseless bickering and finger pointing and find a way to make the changes around you and those you encounter.

We put to much faith in our ideologies (I stole that from someone) and political parties, what matters is what we do each day and everyday.

BTW, I wasnt implying that you are caught up in the negativity RL. I was answering in general.
last edited: 9/10/05 10:57:12 AM”

“Birch,

I do like that. Focus on the one yard of dirt. And that probably is the way it has to be.”

“Birch has it right. Ignore all extremists, both right and left, politicians, or, just posters on TT :)”

“I probably should back off from this argumentation. I've certainly done more than I intended to. Of course, I feel I am just responsing to correct some nonsense or respond to a provocation. But my correction is surely nonsense to someone else, and my response is provocation to someone else.

I s'pose I can't say that my arguments are sensible bickering, while others are senseless?

Really, there are lessons to be learned for all levels and the dust hasn't settled enough to make the lessons clear.

And the false steps in the past, should not detract from the good and generous deeds done all along - or what seems to be a solid mobilization effort coming together now.”

“"I probably should back off from this argumentation. I've certainly done more than I intended to. Of course, I feel I am just responsing to correct some nonsense or respond to a provocation. But my correction is surely nonsense to someone else, and my response is provocation to someone else."

Ped, I think there is a gap between responding and arguing for the sake of trying to win. Clarifying or trying to articulate a point is one thing. I think its the downward spiral that occurs.

I wasnt referring to TT in my post above. It was more related to real life where we the oppotunities to make a difference present themselves daily.

If the bickering left TT lots of us would be really bored LOL.”

“ped, I appreciate your admission that you have been posting nonsense. Very refreshing.”

“Individual results may vary.”

“pedxing: "Time will tell how much the city of N.O. and the state of Louisiana didn't succeed in keeping to their plans because of ineptitude, poor preparation or because they were too battered to manage a disaster of that magnititde."

You are correct ...

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/state/epaper/2005/09/10/m1a_response_0910.html#”

“What used to happen, before FEMA the Homeland Security reorganization is that FEMA would go down to the Cities and States and coach them - FEMA had the disaster experts the ones who had done this before and they provided guidance and expertise and helped in the preparedness and organization.

That said, I have no doubt that the Cities plans were lacking in many aspects.”

“Birch - there is a difficult balance: arguing effectively for what you believe without losing track of the "mote and the beam" issue. How do we balance having the courage of our convictions with the need for the humble awareness that we are fallible people? I also like the battles of ideas that go one, but dislike the personal attacks and the nastiness that sometimes emerges. It's hard though, to know exactly where to draw the line.

I am cheered by reports that things seem to be getting much better organized and am stunned by some of the story of human generosity. I was just hearing on the radio about one family that was just given a tent and a generator by a private individual (a contracto)r who was driving around trying to help people.”

“Yeah, the bickering is useless. If only people could realize that the republican party is all about two main things, there would be no bickering.

1. Money
2. Power”

“Buddha, that would make them liars and crooks.........Oh My !!!!!”

“Ped, that is the tough part. Trying to find that imaginary line that shifts and varies constantly is difficult.

I reckon it depends on what the point of the discussion/argument is.

If my goal is to win or be right then I geuss all bets are off. You get a good ole fashioned TT slugfest.

If i am arguing or discussing a point that I am passionate about I need to keep my feelings in check in order to disallow my feelings to get in the way (getting defensive or attacking the person). I try to stay on the issue and listen to the other perspective. If things degenerate I will step away and either be done with it or will wait till things simmer down. Not that I am entirely successful. I too think long running discussions can be very fruitful providing the focus stays on task. I had a close friend who was a self proclaimed communist and atheist. I recall discussing and arguing with him till 3-5am countless times, we'd get worked up but always in the background was the knowledge that we were friends and there were lines we wouldnt cross and if we got angry things always worked their way out because we respected each other.

I think the fact that someone is honestly trying to be civil comes through in their posts or discussion. If a person just wants to argue that is obvious too. Its about tipping the scales in the right direction. Knowing and respecting others enough to keep their feelings in mind is a great place to start.
last edited: 9/11/05 7:30:57 PM”

“I am trying to think about this structurally.

In a world in which all opinions have the same weight and all opinions are taken with respect, I have zero problem with speaking peaceably and respectfully.

However, Republican and Democrat opinions don't have the same weight.

And a "moderate" government has to be balanced in some way.

So, if the goal is a "moderate" government, then the actions of the minority might have to be more aggressive to achieve the desired moderation.

So, I don't like the vitriol that the left sometimes exhibits, but I think that it might be the default "moderate" position in a government skewed right.

Comments would be appreciated.”

“So, if the goal is a "moderate" government, then the actions of the minority might have to be more aggressive to achieve the desired moderation


If by actions you mean demonstrating in ones life an example that showcases the virtues you believe in then yes I agree. If you mean screaming calling your opponent names and being perpetually partisan than I strongly disagree. I geuss it all in how one defines things like "aggressive".

Sometimes sitting by and simply giving someone enough rope to hang themselves works, other times, like now the the individual is pulling the rope out of your hands and tying the knot for you.
last edited: 9/11/05 9:34:32 PM”

“I agree with you Birch. There may not be any clear line, but there is some sense of basic perspective and human respect we can endeavor to keep track of.”

““ped, I appreciate your admission that you have been posting nonsense. Very refreshing.”
bacpac
8:03:39 AM
9/11/05

Actually, for you Bacpac my posts are a mirror. I am not surprised if you find little in the way of thoughtfullness, kindness, charity or value in them.”

“http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/11/katrina.washington.ap/index.html

Funny how so many have said that we shouldn't blame Bush, when Bush has been blaming local gov't.”

“USA and Kanye West need to have a suck fest.”

“hey, quit posting non-spin material that doesn't tear bush down.”

“I'm sorry baume. I'll take it to another thread that doesn't "spin" bush hatred.”

“It's pretty funny to call JackKelly's piece "non-spin" the guy has been a far right guy who is rah-rah Bush all the way. The guy never makes a mistake in his eyes and he spins it all pro-Bush.

It's a weird and whacko world where the highly partisan pundits are called "spin-free" and the work a day onthe spot reporters are accused of bias and spin.

See: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0805/jkelly_archives.asp”

“pedxing - Do you have facts other than what were presented in his opinion piece?”

“It can now be revealed that the Governor of Hawaii was at fault for the attack at Pearl Harbor.”

“violin - Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but I believe the U.S. federal government is responsible for thwarting military attacks and local and state governments are responsible for local evacuation plans.

Is it your contention that the federal government have local evacuation plans for the entire country, and if so, why hasn't any other president required such plans in the past?”

“Mtn: Look at the link and you will see ample evidence of his history of punditry.”

“Maybe there should be a "Bush Walks on Water" thread..... Oh no, sorry, he might have been more use if he did. ;o)”

“On a serious note. So if the Feds weren't at all to blame, how come they were so quick to kick "hell of a job" intern Brownie out the door then - not even letting the guy answer any questions.”

“pedxing - I didn't ask for a history of punditry. I asked for evidence that what he said in that article is incorrect.”

“"violin - Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but I believe the U.S. federal government is responsible for thwarting military attacks and local and state governments are responsible for local evacuation plans."

-mountainpeak
12:14:48 PM

We are covering old ground here. Read the title carefully: http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf

Start reading at the bottom of page 43 under "Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events".

The minute Bush declared a national disaster, it became the fed's responsibility.”

“Mtn: You are flogging a dead horse. As far as the facts he cites, I'm willing to believe that he selected a few accurate facts. His spin is high, indicated by terms like "libel" his credibility is low.

Others have posted far more thorough and balanced reviews of the flood relief efforts.”

“pedxing: Others have posted far more thorough and balanced reviews of the flood relief efforts.

I'm beginning to believe that "balanced and thorough" is whatever meets your preconceived notions of what you want to hear. Was there something that he missed in relation to historical federal reactions to past disasters that you think is important?”

“violin - Your post about Pearl Harbor sarcastically blamed local government for the attack, or the reaction to that attack? Because, if you were referring to the attack itself, that is not analogous to the federal reaction to the hurricane. It's not apples and apples. More like apples and oranges. Your point is silly, at best.”

“The problem may be in the definitions. For example: "moderate and balanced" means two very different things to people. I view unions as a balance to capitalism, while some would never view it that way.

Right and wrong fall into the same category.

Having said that, how can you truely have a productive discourse when the very definitions are disputed? It's a losing battle, for everybody.
last edited: 9/12/05 2:29:03 PM”

““hey, quit posting non-spin material that doesn't tear bush down.”

You mean an "opinion" piece by Jack Kelly? This Jack Kelly?:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A11670-2004Jan12?language=printer
http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-18-2004-03-18_kelleymain_x.htm

I can't see how pedxing can question this guy's objectivity.”

“It cracks me up how ad hominem attacks are ok against this guy, but if we say something about the "sacred" New York Times, forget it! LOL.

violin, did you find something factually incorrect about his article?”

“Say what anything you want about the NY Times. I'll not defend them. The fact that they are still protecting Judith Miller is enough for me.”

“Protecting her from who?”

“Mountain - Yes. And, I've discussed several times already what the Feds should have done. First and foremost, FEMA, in the past has been proactive. Mayors and Govenors mostly know nothing about disasters first hand. In past disasters, FEMA experts have gone provided careful guidance and support for the Mayor and the govenor.

If yuou compare Jack Kelly to the NYT, yuou are showing a tremendous bias. Did you notice the NYT was repeating the Bush line on Iraq before the war. Sure, the NYT has a perspective with which you can disagree and call bias if you wish, but Kelly is a propagandist, the mass media equivalent of a pamphleteer. If you can't discriminate perspective from pamphleteering, you have a problem.”

“Time and again, you have Republicans and impartial people who say the Feds also blew it.

From USA's link:

Sen. David Vitter, a Louisiana Republican, said on "Fox News Sunday" he would give "the entire big government organized relief effort a failing grade, across the board." But, he added that state and local governments shared in the blame, too.”

“pedxing: Sure, the NYT has a perspective with which you can disagree and call bias if you wish, but Kelly is a propagandist, the mass media equivalent of a pamphleteer.

LOL! And the NYT isn't? Come on pedxing. A "mass media discriminating perspective" is justified, but a one man "pamphleteer" isn't?

As my grandma used to say ... "Lord have mercy!"”

“Have you read the New York times, have you compared the kind of language they use? Do you know the difference between a news story and an editorial?”

“There is not difference. They are the same thing in the New York times.”

“pedxing - So this is about semantics for you, and not content or substance? It's ok if they lack substance or objectivity if they have good grammar and lots of advertising?”

“Monday, Sept. 12, 2005 11:11 a.m. EDT
John Kerry's Katrina Aid Arrives Late

Billionaire Democratic Sen. John Kerry has finally sent his own aid package to hurricane-ravaged New Orleans more than two weeks after the storm hit - and a week after most of the city had been successfully evacuated by the Bush administration.

Kerry traveled to New Orleans on Monday aboard a UPS Boeing 757 loaded with 5,000 bottles of baby formula, 5,000 pairs of sneakers and an array of cleaning supplies, the Associated Press said.

"Everything that any of us can do is so welcome, and it provides just a little bit of help at an extraordinary time," the Massachusetts Democrat told the AP.
But rather than pay for the aid using his wife's ketchup fortune - which the Los Angeles Times estimated last year at over a billion dollars - Kerry's aid package was donated by Boston's Children's Hospital, the New England Shelter for Homeless Veterans and the New Balance sneaker company.

UPS donated the plane, the flight crew and fuel, trucks and drivers to transport the goods to Logan International Airport and then to disperse them to Baton Rogue and Lafayette, La.

It's not clear what, if anything, Sen. Kerry paid for.”

“Yes - BBW - you worry what Kerry is doing. Can't have the focus on your man huh.”

“No Mountain. Obviously you haven't thought about the language they use. NYT uses carefully chosen terms almost all the time. They avoid overwhelming the information aspect of their articles with terms that are simply designed to manipulate emotion.

I disagree with the NYT editorial policy often, but they do attempt, first and foremost to inform, not to inflame or propagandize.

Apparently the distinction between an editorial or Op-ed tyoe of piece and a news story is also something that does not concern you if you equate the NYT and Kelly.”