The destruction of Houston?

“http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/210636.shtml?5day

How unfortunate if all those people who fled New Orleans to Houston got caught in Rita.”

“It's Bush's fault.

Has there been any comparisons between the Federal Response to other Hurricanes vs Katrina? I suspect that the Federal Response to Katrina was much faster and much larger than any other time in history. Anyone looked that up yet?
last edited: 9/20/05 7:28:54 AM”

“I think the Federal response to Andrew(?) '92(?) was immediate.

Poppy Bush was to be commended for that.

Homestead Air Force Base, etc......

Twinkle Toes was a refugee from that one.

(somebody please, spank me if I got the facts wrong)”

“http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

Jason van Steenwyk is a Florida Army National Guardsman who has been mobilized six times for hurricane relief. He notes that:

"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 1992. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.”

“For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 1992. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.”
pitts
10:21:09 AM
9/20/05

Hmmm is this the National Guard that Blanco is being blamed for not relinquishing control over? If so, it would be extremely odd to put this in Bush's plus column.”

“I think that Katrina and Cindy Sheehan have a lot in common.

Bush's poll numbers are abysmal. People just don't like him. So, he's like a boxer who is tired and weak. He may be standing, but all it will take is one blow to send him to the mat.

If it wasn't Cindy Sheehan, it would be something else. If it wasn't Hurricane Katrina, it would be something else.

When you lose the nation's respect, all the accusations become true.”

“the big diff in Katrina was the flooding that left so many people stranded and made for such dramatic television. It crippled the ability for rescue response.”

“RL has a point. Bush has become the "it's not my fault President." Karl Rove and company are great at finding excuses, but there are so many major things going wrong that are "not his fault" that people are turned off by the excuses.”

“bbw, yes that info is just begining to be looked over. Ped I understand what you are saying but likewise most are blaming Bush for the fact that the National Guard was not there to begin with and in reality that the State, County and/or City Emergency Management Plans were never followed.
last edited: 9/20/05 10:56:12 AM”

“Just what this site needs is another Bush bashing thread. The problem with so many in America is not that the government failed them (any party’s government, fed. State or local) it is the expectation that the government will take care of all their needs. Years ago Charleston SC was hit by a hurricane. I don’t even know who was Pres. then. I do remember the Mayor going before the cameras and saving that FEMA did not respond fast enough. I called it the Charleston Emergency Preparedness Plan - do nothing and blame FEMA. It sounds like many people are still using the Charleston Emergency Preparedness Plan. Grow up people and take some responsibility for yourselves. Yes the government can and should provide some “safety nets” but this expectation of cradle to grave care by the nanny state is just wrong. It has been tried and it doesn’t work (Back in the USSR boys).

I half expect that some of you will start posting complaints here that the Forest Service ruined you backpacking trip because there was no tent or food at your campsite when you got there.

Notice this is not a defense of the Bush corp. but an attack on your whinny please take care of helpless little me attitudes. There are ways we help each other when our own resources are lost that do not involve the government and in my always correct opinion they work better. The red cross is not government. There are many other organizations that provide help in all kinds of ways, including many of those religions many liberals like to bash.”

“"Hugo caused $7 billion ($9.4 billion in 2000 dollars) in damage in the US (plus $3 billion in the Caribbean). At the time it was the costliest hurricane in US history, but was exceeded in 1992 by Hurricane Andrew in south Florida. In South Carolina, which bore the brunt of the storm on the continent, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was slow in responding and Senator Fritz Hollings referred to them as "a bunch of bureacratic jackasses." An investigation was launched, which led to some reforms in FEMA procedures that helped the agency do a somewhat better job during Andrew, the next catastrophic hurricane to strike the United States"

"Extensive relief aid was provided by The Salvation Army, the Red Cross and various churches."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Hugo”

“Hey there… MarkO asked that if someone knew different about what he said (that Andrew was an instant response from the Federal Government) that they should post it. I am not making any statement about Bush… putting plusses in anyone’s scorecard.

I just thought that the comment that the Federal response was pretty standard given past history and was in fact better than Andrew is an important consideration. I think the guardsman makes a good point that I see as neglected in the press coverage. That point is that the response is seldom compared to the volume of effort that was required. As the article points out:

I write this column a week and a day after the main levee protecting New Orleans breached. In the course of that week:

* More than 32,000 people have been rescued, many plucked from rooftops by Coast Guard helicopters.

* The Army Corps of Engineers has all but repaired the breaches and begun pumping water out of New Orleans.

* Shelter, food and medical care have been provided to more than 180,000 refugees.

The response time was not that different from other disasters (like Andrew) as a simple matter of fact and, quite frankly, the level of service expected from the Federal Government was unprecedented. You always have to modulate quality with quantity. I am not saying that the response was good enough. The president himself said it clearly was not. I just think that this was an overwhelming event that we have historically never been very good at responding to and for which there is little precedent.

Hugo was a huge storm (like Andrew) that did a lot of damage, but the level of response that was needed wasn't near what was needed for Katrina in New Orleans. Same is true for Andrew and it did more damage than Hugo. If you want to compare apples to apples then you have to show a hurricane in recent history that required a response from the Federal Government that was similar and where the local responders were totally wiped out (like they were in Katrina). I am simply not aware of any. I just see this as an unprecedented event in recent history.”

“Mnt Gal, you and I could make wonderful babies together. LOL! I've been saying the same thing since day ONE. All everyone wants to do is sit in the dark and bltch about the lights. "Do something about it? Hell know, we're too busy bltchin' about it."

They're an embarrassment to our grandfather's generation.”

“From what little I have looked at it appears that the Federal response was as good and for the most part better than past hurricanes.

That is not the perception, because what amounts to news these days is just editorial crap. The First Amendment should be rewritten to provide, 'Freedom from the Press.'”

“the response was as could be expected. no matter how much you prepare, it goes to hell and you then adjust and get moving, four days later. i knew it was going to be this way, the media did not. they'll learn.”

“Osama must be riding a rug around the Carribean and Gulf whipping up these events.”

“Houston has a Republican mayor. If a hurricane hits there, all media attention will be focused on the failings of local government.

Does anyone find it interesting how the many, many failures of local government in New Orleans are coming to light much more slowly and unobtrusively than the front page hysteria launched at Federal Government immediately after Katrina?

God help the racists in Houston.
last edited: 9/20/05 7:03:03 PM”

“Doesn't matter which way you stack it up, I'm not convinced that Katrina was handled with our full capacity of handling such disasters. At least not initially.

I've decided that I'm chalking this one up to opposing partisan interests. Notice that while Mississippi and Alabama weren't subject to prolonged flooding, the damage and/or obliteration there was just as bad as in New Orleans, yet the situtation in AL and MS seemed to be more under control (or at least the news agencies seemed to give that impression). Incindentally, MS and AL have Republican governors, LA does not. Coincidence?

I think all our government officials need to get their heads out of the sand and start working together better, especially between the two parties. Perhaps with better cooperation, a lot of this could have been avoided.

Anyway, this should probably be fuego, but y'all started this, so this is my $0.02.
last edited: 9/20/05 7:05:45 PM”

“I hope that Houston is spared, I arrive their 759pm friday...”

“Don't forget your rubber boots birch...





”

“Thanks man!”

“Doesn't that guy kind of look like Nonconformist with a white beard? LOL!”

“Ha! Goes to show what you know! I have WAY more chest hair than that!”

“Oh hi Dave! Old buddy old pal! Didn't see ya there....


:)”

“This thread is silly.
Houston itself is rwenty miles inland from any major body of water.
The storm surge of wind driven water is what tears most everthing up.
Houston will be OK, but some of the suburbs nearer the Bay will get water.

New Orleans didn't even get a direct hit a few weeks ago. The hurricane pasted to the east of NO and tore up everthing in it's path to the east.

NO only had major problems because it's built below sea level and a system of dikes and pumps keep the water out most of the time. The dikes were only built to handle a cat 3 storm at best. Hard rainstorms can and do flood the lowest sections all the time. The storm knocked a dike out and the city flooded.

The real and now largely ignored destruction happened to the marsh areas of LA and the MS Gulf Coast from the storm surge. I live almost 50 miles from the LA state line and my house saw a storm surge of above 20 feet of water.
last edited: 9/20/05 8:14:40 PM”

“BTW, if you've been told once, you've been told a thousand times, stop downloading pics from birch's Webshots!”

“Wind damage from a Category 5 storm plowing right into Houston would be considerable even after crossing 20 or 30 miles of land.”

“LOL

I would much rather be hit with cat 5 wind than cat 5 water.
You can't even compare the two.

Take a walk around my neighborhood. All the houses that are gone or gutted are from storm surge, not wind.

Of course I'm not saying winds do not tear up things, just not nearly as bad as the storm surge.”

““I hope that Houston is spared, I arrive their 759pm friday...”
birch
7:45:57 PM
9/20/05

Just saw this.

birch, listen to me, PLEASE.
Do not go unless the track by thursday is well east of Houston.

If the storm hits Houston, there will be no water, power, hotel rooms will close, no gas, no food, no phones, no nuttin for many days after the storm. The heat will still be in the 90s and a northern boy like you will die. ;-)

You will be put on some bus and taken God knows where to a shelter if you are lucky.”

“SS, thats my dilema, I am heading down to work at a chruch running a shelter for Katrina evacuees. I am watching and waiting...”

“Now Cat. 4 - 135 mph”

“Birch it would be best to wait until after landfall.

Good luck and good on ya for volunteering to help.”

“frances and jeanne occurred just prior to election 2004. bush dumped lots of fema money in fl....lots in miami-dade (5-6 mil)...no storm came within 75 miles of them.

bush won florida by a close margin.”

“Dittos on HPM's post.”

“Actually deanoman, I had forgotten all about that. Pres. Bush was way out in front on that one.”

“By sprinkling a water-absorbing powder over the cloud, the researchers made it disappear from the sky and weather station radar screens. They hope the powder will one day dry up deadly hurricanes and tropical storms.

"It is the moisture that gives hurricanes their strength," says Peter Cordani who runs Dyn-O-Mat, the company that makes the product. "In the case of a huge hurricane, we would not be trying to soak it up altogether. But what we would do is break it up and reduce its strength and killing potential. We think we can save lives with this product and we are very happy about that." The powder could also banish rain over open-air events and sports fixtures.

Cordani and his team hope to get government permission to tackle a hurricane or tropical storm in the coming season.

In their latest experiment, large military aircraft scattered the powder through a storm cloud 1600 metres long and over 4000 metres deep. It took about 4000 kilograms of powder to soak up the moisture from the cloud, making it virtually disappear. "I had calls from a weather tower and even from Channel 5 news in Miami, saying that they had seen the cloud literally disappear off the radar screen. They confirmed that there had been a tall build-up and the next moment it was gone," Cordani says.



http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-08/ns-cb080101.php

http://www.wesh.com/news/3963137/detail.html
last edited: 9/21/05 11:24:49 AM”

“I think it's a nice idea, but I'm not sure I approve of tampering with nature and the weather in this way - of course I haven't had my life wiped out by a storm.”

“Raise taxes on beer!”

“We need to use dehydrated water to take the punch out of the storm. Just make sure the dihydrogen monoxide content is sufficiently low or we will hurt the Gulf ecology. I bet the Bush administration didn't think to try that! It’s so crazy it just might work…
last edited: 9/21/05 12:04:45 PM”

“Doesn't that guy kind of look like Nonconformist with a white beard? LOL!”
Nigal


Arrr, it's Cap'n Jerbear returned!

Lol!”

“It's a matter of scale. A medium-size hurricane is about 80,000 times larger in volume than the cloud they tackled. Even if you only had to absorb 10% of the moisture in the hurricane to break it up, it would take approximately 230 sorties of C5-A Galaxy cargo planes to do this. And in the time that took, the hurricane would probably replace the lost moisture.

The owners of that company are just trying to get some Federal funding for their research. My guess is they are really only looking at "getting rid of rain over outdoor events" thing, which it sounds like this product might be able to handle.

That's assuming that dumping tons and tons of this powder has zero effect on the environment, other than the moisture absorbtion.”

“From what I've seen those guys have never provided solid documentation that proves their product works. All they have is anecdotal stories of seeding clouds.

That's why they aren't getting anywhere. No one wants to pay for vaporware and the agencies they pitched to aren't convinced it works.”

“I think that trying wouldn't hurt. So what if you send a few hundred planes (at one time) and possibly save the billions and billions we now have to spend in New Orleans and future disasters? I'd like to take a chance to see if it's feasible.”

“Well, we only have about 100 C5-A's and -B's, and they're busy doing other stuff. And my estimate of 10% to "break up a hurricane" is a SWAG. It might be %50, in which case you'd need 1150 sorties.

And in addition, what if some of the planes and crews are lost? 230 sorties into a hurricane, and you're definitely going to lose a few.

Bottom line is, without more concrete evidence, no, it's not worth trying. I'm sorry Tango, but it's just an incredibly stupid and bad idea.”

“I understand that. People that garden use, I think, a similar substance in plant pots. These crystals absorb water and turn from a flake into small gel globules and the plant can get water from it for a long time. In the article it says that the powder will absorb 4000 times it weight in water.

I respect your opinion but in mine I say even if you could lessen the damage and loss of life, I say try it.

How incredibly cheap it is that our government could spend 500 million dollars on research. Some politicians add that much pork to bills a thousand times over.”

“Tango, he's a huckster. If he won't submit to scientific review, it means that he knows the data won't stand up to review, and his scheme will be revealed. He's just another pig trying to wallow up to the Federal trough.”

“

215 PM EDT WED SEP 21 2005

DATA FROM RECONNAISSANCE AIRCRAFT INDICATE THAT RITA HAS INTENSIFIED
A LITTLE MORE AND WINDS HAVE REACHED 150 MPH WINDS WITH A MINIMUM
PRESSURE OF 920 MB. THIS MAKES RITA A STRONG CATEGORY FOUR
HURRICANE.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MIATCUAT3+shtml/DDHHMM.shtml?”

“I will find out tomorrow about my plans for sure, the bummer is that if I cancel I wont be able to go later, this was my only free week...”

“Better to cancel and live to help another day than to become another victim to be cared for instead of helping.

Hurricanes are bad news.”

“Birch - I hope it works out! It seems they'd need you now, more then ever, w/ the threat of another storm... especially since you're headed to that area. Maybe they'll fly you in to a different town to begin Hurricane Rita assistance?”