Global Warming

“Let's not be to harsh on Big Al. I'm sure that he has opened his mansion to lots of homeless people. Twenty families and that would average out about right, doncha think?”

“Pigs come from both ends of the body politic. Do you really want pigs to determine your future?”

“Well you know when you grow up in the challenged lifestyle he did....its tough.”

“XL, you keep saying that the movie's contents have been proved wrong but you (as always) neglect to link to evidence. Put up or shut up.”

“Isn't that pretty much what Bison posted above?”

“No - it's not NP - Not in any way shape or form. Bison's stats there are irrelevant - and he knows this, and you should know that.

No one is claiming the world is hotter than it has ever been.

It is the speed of change that is a key factor, and the human role in this that is at question.

This stuff is just an attempt to muddy the water.”

“Bison knows this, which is why he posted his solar radiation stuff earlier in the thread.”

“Tech it is junk science its a belief of Consensus (i.e. RELIGION)....I have left reference after reference on these threads (as have many others) if you choose to believe your religion thats cool with me. But do not push your religion on me any more than you would want me to push my religion on you.”

“Y2, I see. If a fact shows that your point of view is crap, then it is irrelevent. But since there is no scientific evidence that your point of view is correct, then feelings are all that are important (as long as they agree with your feelings). I just love the libbie way of arguing a point.”

“Ok - in simple terms for you NP - No significant scientist or study is claiming that it is now hotter than it has ever been - so the chart is irrelevant! Really - is this not understandable? This is not evidence!

The whole debate is now about the human influence on climate.

If you want to go on with rants about libies or other such bs then do so, but I'll try to stick to direct points like the one above.

And in relation to this Gore is an idiot who should be doing what he can to cut his own consumption for sure (taking this story at face value).”

“Actually, I am sticking to the direct points. It's clear that if it supports your point it is relevent (whether it is fact or just supposition), but if it supports the other side, it soesn't matter if it's fact or not, it's irrelevent. That's the way all your arguments go.”

“XL, you haven't posted a single link to an article that debunks a single thing brought up in the movie. You've posted links in the past, sure, but not ones that disucss the movie. All you can do is say things like "it sucks" and "its all wrong", but you don't prove your point. I'm ready and willing to discuss what's truly inaccurate but you don't like to have disucssions like that, do you?”

“The studies that I have brought up here are not irrelevent at all. They also show that the current rate of change is not in any way out of balance when you look at the historical record. Some climate changes happen quickly, some more gradually. And there are sometimes quick ups and downs within a longer period of overall change. The problem with people who are pervaying the gloom and doom human-caused climate change we're all going to die idea is that they take such a short term limited view climate change. For instance they want you to believe that the current climate change just started recently, in the last couple of decades. They do this for two reasons, one it conveys a sense of urgency (hey look how fast its changing) and two it seems to beef up they're claim that its sped up by carbon emmissions.

But lets get back to another inconvienent truth, the fact is that the current warming cycle did not begin quite so recently, it began about 1850, more than 150 years ago. And it has sped up and slowed down over different decades with the general trend being toward warmer. There's nothing about the current cycle that when one takes a long term view, in comparison to past climate change, is unusual or unnatural.

The climate changes on its own, it always has, its a natural process, get used to it.”

“Ok, this is funny, the guy who produced Bison's chart explains it thus:

The next plot (Figure 1-3) shows the data from the Greenland ice core back to 10,000 BC. Near the right hand side of this plot, the little dip of the little ice age is clear. Some scientists argue that global warming is not human caused, but is simply a natural return to the normal temperature of the previous 8,000 years. In fact, no one knows for sure if this is right or not. But the foundation for thinking that human effects will cause warming is substantial. Even if the recent rise in temperature is natural, human caused effects have a high probability of dominating in the near future, and within our lifetimes the temperature of the Earth could go higher than has ever seen previously by Homo sapiens.”

“Yes, so? he's certainly entitled to his own interpretation of the data, even if he's wrong. There are plenty of other climatologists who come to the same conclusion as I do based on that data. He just happened to have the nicest looking chart posted :)”

“Come on Bison - there's not that many climatologists coming to that conclusion at all. They are a small minority at best.

There was an interesting thing on the radio this morning saying the corner has been turned and we're likely to start seeing action on this stuff in America.

Businesses are looking to get ahead of the curve to ward off legislation.”

“" the current warming cycle did not begin quite so recently, it began about 1850, more than 150 years ago" - Bison


Yup, you are right Bison.



150 years ago is about the time we started burning coal/coke in large quantities as the Second Industrial Revolution took off. It became the staple for all steam engines - both stationary and on locomotives. It became the primary heating source in many homes, eventually overtaking wood. It was how we made all of our iron/steel.


150 years ago is when the CO2 emissions and temperature increases skyrocketed and that timeline meshes perfectly with our coal/coke use, and then later our oil/gasoline use.”

“A small minority? That's what some would have you believe, but the reality is that you'll have absolutely no problem finding plenty of climatologists who believe that human-caused global warming is bunk. Hell a different one seems to be on the news getting flogged for their position everyday. Look at the state climatologists who have been fired recently. Why were they fired? Because the states came to a political conclusion about global warming that their own scientists couldn't justify scientifically. What a joke.

I was watching the local news here the other day and the meteorologist (not a climatologist but still an expert on climate) was asked if all the weather ups and downs here this winter were related to human-caused global warming. He just started laughing and couldn't stop, right on the air.”

“Yes tech and therein lies a great deal of the problem here. You have many people making a tenous connection between those emmissions and the current warming. The problem with this is that the warming began right about the time that one would have expected it to begin, emmissions or not. But no one in the human caused global warming camp seems to take a critical eye to this. They say "See here's proof" (at least the scientists do, your non-scientific media peddlers seemingly ignore the fact that the warming began so long ago for the reasons I stated above), instead of bothering to examine one very important conclusion that can easily be drawn when we look at the historic record of climate change. That is, it's a coincidence.”

“Since the "Weather Channel" babe is trying to revoke the credentials of any meteorologist that disagrees with her, I'm surprised that there are as many speaking up about the myth of global warming ar there are.”

“I've often thought how illuminating it would be for future generations to see a copy of this thread. It should really be preserved in a time capsule... along with all the 'George W. Bush is a Great Man' claptrap.



February 26, 2007 08:00 AM Eastern Time

NRDC Role Pivotal in Plotting Environmental Course for Record TXU Buyout
Group is the First Invited to Help Set New Benchmark for Climate, Clean Energy Vision

Global Warming Commitments Will Reverberate Through Wall Street, Washington

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The record-setting buyout of the giant electric utility TXU by top private equity investors sets a new benchmark in energy business strategy that will reverberate across the industry and throughout the corridors of Washington, according to experts from the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), who were the first environmental advocates called to the table to help shape the pioneering environmental accord.

(More?)”

“Bison - it's not what some would like you to believe - it's a fact. Admittedly there are a few, but they are vastly outnumbered.

Lets look at the IPCC - which is basically analyzing the studies carried out on the subject - they conclude a 90% probability of a human role in climate change.

There is a strong consensus that human activities are influencing climate.

The ONLY reasons I can see for doing nothing are political. At the very worst all that happens is that we produce cleaner and cheaper power.
It's time to stop the denials and start taking action.”

“And if you've bothered to read my comments here you would know that I agree exactly that it's time to take action against emmissions.

But we need to take actions based on the reasons that we KNOW that emmissions are bad, especially when it comes to smog (I like my views from the trail and mountaintop clean please) and respiratory problems, and acid rain.

We shouldn't be scaring people into taking action based on BS, which is exactly what human-caused global warming is. We should take action while at the same time realizing that the climate would be warming right now whether or not we had ever pumped any greenhouse emmissions into the atmosphere.

And while were on the subject of the current warming lets again examine the tie to emmissions. When we look at these emmissions over the last 150 years we see emmissions going steadily upward, but does the warming trend follow suit? NO it doesn't, there have been significant dips in temperature during that time.

BUT can we find some piece of the climate puzzle that fits with these decreases and increases in temperature within the overall warming pattern? YES we can, solar output, while it doesn't agree perferctly with temperature has shown a much closer relation to temperature than emmissions have (there's almost no correlation with the amount of emmissions at all, emmissions keep going up while the temp rises and falls).

But, why would we want to believe our lying eyes?

Once again for the class, we can argue ridiculous reasons for what we not to be true all we want, but the fact is that what we see is

Solar ouput goes up, temp goes up.

Solar output goes down, temp goes down.

Emmissions go up, sometimes temp goes up.

Emissions go up, sometimes, err, uh, wait this doesn't quite fit as well, temp goes DOWN.
last edited: 2/27/07 1:22:23 PM”

“NO Y2 the only reason for DOING anything in haste (i.e. DISASTER WARNING WARNING PANIC PANIC) is that this will be the only way the old world Socialists will get their anti success agenda through. Look we know that most of the old world Communist/Socialists pretty much had their red licked off the peppermint when the Glorious Soviet Union went belly up in 1989. They moved to the enviro movement (shall we point out where GORBY went????).

Why is it that the "Torah" of the environmentalists...the Kyoto Accords discounts China and India among others (the worst polluters) but seems to center only on the United States and other succesful free nations?????

http://www.cei.org/pdf/5539.pdf

Its a dang lie, you know it, you know that every model ever made cannot be reverse confirmed, you know that for EVERY sign of the Apocolypse in Global Warming there are multiple signs to the opposite....

Here is the kick, its all about envy of success. Thats it pure and simple ENVY”

“Its just your FEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-LINGS, XL.”

“FFS they don't only center on the US. That's just the conspiracy wackos of the right who would have you believe that.

Things have also moved on from Kyoto. America needs to act for it's own sake. It can lead the world and take advantage of the situation unless it listens to the head-in-the-sanders like you.

You know certain people have a weak argument when they start going back to calling everyone communists and socialist. It proves their arguments are made of straw.

And why is it envy XL?”

“Marky Mark.....wife still not let you have the package when she is at work huh...(LOL)..

Y2. Socialisim is the position of the failures in life. They will be happy to sit back and watch others get successful then TAKE (by using the power of government) what they need. Its envy pure and simple, the third world S-holes now see a way to make money by "selling" carbon credits (something they get for being third world s-holes).

If you do not understand socialisim there is no need to continue this conversation. Suffice it to say every statement we hear involves two main similarities
1. THE WORLD WILL END NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS. There is NO time for debate, the world must do what the CHOSEN FEW (life's failures and leeches)
2. THE successful must be punished for their success.”

“"If you do not understand socialisim there is no need to continue this conversation."

XL, since you don't understand why don't you just shut your cake hole.

Anything you don't like is "socialist".

Maybe YOU envy the sanity of others?”

“America can either take the lead on this and control its own energy destiny, or be left behind holding out its hands to Saudi Arabia and Iran for some oil. You seem to prefer that option XL!
Just because you don't like the reality, doesn't mean it's a communist plot against America.”

“It's obviously all been a socialist plot to put all that oil in the wrong places.”

“SS , would you please see if a commie is hiding in my Bush?”

“Cool, The Red Scare.”

“I ain't afraid o' no ghosts!!!”

“The stock market says,"HELLo".”

“I envy Y2..............he has a cool dog.

Am I a "socialist"?”

“For you all that want to really know, take a look at the stock market, then tell me about the pigs I spoke of above.”

“WOW...you guys have a good hissy...OOPS sorry marky mark, didn't mean to insinuate you did anything effeminate


LOL found a photo of Marky mark on the last one....




Go make some Chamomile tea and sit down at the table and have a good cry....it will make you feel better.”

“No thanks, XLax, I'll have a shot and a beer.

Don't you have some real men to supervise?

You know what they say, "Those who can, do. And those who can't supervise."”

“and those who can't do, supervise, or inspect stay at home and bake cookies....I think your hero Hillary said that....(LOL) or something like it.”

“Bison, as they say in police work, "there ain't no coincidences". Our emissions went up, along with our temperatures (yes, our temps have gone up steadily, not dropped). With the other side effects like breathing problems, visibility problems, etc.

The global problems starte exactly when we started burning coal & coke in large quantities.”

“Here's one for your righties - Jerry Falwell has stated that the global warming movement is the work of Satan, that we has humans should do nothing to improve our environment since apparently God will keep the world livable until Jesus comes again. Uh-huh.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/02/falwell_to_arms.php”

“XL, when you learn to spell, form coherent thoughts, and learn to discuss issues without insulting others, please rejoin us. Until then, you have no credibility.

Oh, and the only envy around here is your envy that so many of us are happy with our lives while you are stuck working 80-hour weeks and never get to see your family. Sucks to be you.”

“Satan, is'nt that the guy that wrote that bible thing?”

“tisk, tisk....


personal attacks”

“Jerry, Jerry, Jerry... You poor psychotic bastrd.”

“http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1594368,00.html

Yeah, I couldn't resist. Now let me stand back and warm my hands.

I am sooooooooooooooo bad.”

“That's been brought up on multiple threads Pamela. The difference between Gore and Bush? Gore offsets all of his useage with carbon credits and solar panels on his property. He also uses his mansion as offices for himself and Tipper which will naturally raise his bill above a house that is only used evenings/weekends. Bush's ranch on the other hand has no solar panels or carbon offsets and he doesn't use it as his office (he's on vacation when he goes there).

I think your fire is out.”