Global Warming

“He can buy all the carbon credits he wants, that power is still being used.

You are absolutely wrong about the Bush ranch tech, they do have solar panels, as a matter of fact nearly all power on the Bush ranch is renewable, solar panels for water heating, a groundwater system for air conditioning etc... It is also has rainwater collection for irrigation, and graywater recycling.”

“The only thing I've found is the few panels they have to heat a pool at the White House. Where have you found info on the ranch?”

“Info on the ranch is all over the place, here's one -

http://www.off-grid.net/index.php?p=680

Maybe you had read that they didn't install solar panels for the pool at the ranch? which they didn't because they ended up using geothermal for the pool.”

“IPCC is a political organization, not a scientific scientific organization.”

“Gore offsets all of his useage with carbon credits....”
techntrek
3:47:38 PM
2/28/07


LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

And the funniest part is how serious this crowd continues to go on and on about their beliefs and how defiant they get when people don't believe them.

My "footprint" is pretty small so I'm considering selling some of my credits. Any takers? $100 a ton---that's a steal! LMAO!”

“I for one dont base my religeon on the bakers and I dont think we should base enviromental policy (or opinion) on Gore. Is it remotely possible we could take a moderate stance and base ourselves on known problems with realistic solutions?

Oh sorry, I forgot, that would take all the fun out of it.”

“apparently no one here has fun unless they are chewing the ass off of someone who has a different opinion.

oh g**. gonna get slaughtered for this one.”

“thats was more like onuendo then inuendo LOL”

“Like nonconformist, Pamela?”

“Global warming is a lie, its doesn't exist.


Well, OK, it may be real but we aren't the cause of it.


OK, we may be contributing a little, but it isn't cost effective to try and fix it.



Hey, Al Gore's electric bill is higher than mine!”

“Non, I'd that you up on that, but it would take me 50 years to smoke a ton.”

“Amazing how when the "facts" from the "independent" Tennessee Center for Policy Research are analyzed, they don't quite work out. Like when Gore is paying for 100% green electricity, his bill IS going to be pretty high.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/28/olbermann-on-gores-energy-use-setting-the-record-straight/”

“This thread reminds me of a scene from the movie, "Eric the Viking."

King Arnulf: [Hy-Brasil is sinking, everything is collapsing and exploding] "Everyone stay calm! This is not happening!"”

“I'm anticipating having to run the snowblower tomorrow due to a huge snowstorm that is on the way.....can someone please keep their lights off tomorrow or maybe walk to work so I can use their carbon credits? Thanks.


Hey Geo, I'm reminded of the scene in the book where the little kid lets everyone know the Emperor had no clothes. :P



edited for spelling
last edited: 3/01/07 5:26:34 PM”

“Ahh, but the emperor can get dressed in a hurry.”

“I can buy sunscreen in less than ten minutes.”

“The Emperor changes costume quite a bit.

One might say he is a flip-flopper.”

“I can buy flip flops too!”

“How many credits will I burn up if I have seconds on beans tonight?”

“Interesting article about the effects of a regional nuclear war, below. Like between Pakistan and India if they finally duke it out. Looks like we would end up with global cooling for a decade, which much shorter growing seasons that would end up killing more people world-wide than the original regional war. Not really global warming related but I figured those that visit this thread would find it interesting reading.

http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn11287-nuclear-winter-may-kill-more-than-a-nuclear-war.html”

“Not related? It's a solution.(#5648A@B)”

“Reduction of global population, reduction of global tempatures..

and I thought techntrek didnt approve of nuclear power :}”

“LOL.”

“Hey that's great news tech! The solution to global warming and the Al Qeda resergence - get India to throw some nukes at Pakistan, near the Afghan border. The cooling will counteract the warming - whenever it gets too hot, get someone else to throw a few nukes at some bad guys.”

“WELLL...what about

http://zapatopi.net/blackhelicopters/


here is one lodged in the base of some poor guy's skull...
”

“That's old news to Iraqi bad guys. Global Swarming- poor Al's wrong again.”

“So Al Gore offsets his outrageous energy use by buying green credits. That in itself is a scam. Now we know that Gore owns the company that he is purchasing his green credits from.

He pays dividends to himself to offset using 20 times more energy than average. Thanks for saving the world Al.”

“Wonder what sort of TAX breaks he is claiming?”

“Actually bacpac, he offsets his energy use by buying 100% green electric from his local utility. Paying a lot more for his juice as a result. He offsets other parts of his life through the green credits - which as I've state before I'm not convinced they are any sort of answer.

Just to recap - his electric useage is 100% green, unlike probably everyone else on this thread.”

“Come on TechNtrek, that's not fair of you.”

“


”

“WTF is "Green" Electric?”

“MarkO - yeah, I guess I was jumping the gun. I'm sure everyone here buys the 100% green option from their local utility. It was mean of me to say otherwise. (snark)

To note, I do buy the largest option available in my market - 10%. Its a start. I kick myself because when I first looked into it January a year ago I could have signed up for a 100% option, but then 3 months later when I became serious about it the 100% option was gone. Oh well, eventually I hope.

XL - some utilities sell green packages, where some or all of your useage is guaranteed to be from a green source (wind/hydro/etc).”

“OH really (LOL)...tech gotta ask...do you have ANY IDEA how the electrical distribution system runs?

LOL thats like going to the gas station pumping the UNLEADED REGULAR and paying a few bucks extra because the guy claims he will guarantee that the stuff you get is "green gasoline"

electricity is put into the system (distrubtion lines) and it must be USED. Its not like they can separate the electrons in the line...but then...I guess if you believe ALGORE's stuff you are pretty much gullible to believe anything...>(LOL)
last edited: 3/05/07 10:26:55 AM”

“XL, Its called "fungible". You are correct on that point. And electrons travel through the least resistive path, usually the closest object (I got A's in electronics and economics courses, can ya tell?). So yes, in reality all the houses clustered around a wind turbine are the ones that actually get to use the electricity that it puts on the grid. And in reality my juice comes from the nuclear plant, maybe a coal plant. Its a shell game - I pay more for juice that others are actually using. Only short term though...

... because there is another neat thing in economics called supply and demand. The more people that demand green energy, the more the electric companies will invest to produce it. Its similar to the carbon credits you hate (and I'm not crazy about), except in this case there's a 100% guarantee that the green energy I'm paying for is actually being produced, unlike carbon offsets.

And here's another neat thing. The 10% green program I'm on is 2 cents/kWh cheaper than the normal coal/nuclear program my local energy supplier produces. With deregulation a few years ago they made it possible for me to sign up with another supplier so I can get the green package. So I'm saving money while also supporting green production.

I suggest you take college courses on economics and electrical theory so you can speak intelligently on the subject next time.”

“ROTFLMAO....and you still know that Gullible is NOT in the Dictionary (LOL).”

“You do know that electric companies are audited and their numbers certified, right?”

“I saw a gullible stuck in a windmill blade.”

“I believe if I said "the sky is blue" XL would ROTFLMAO, do the Hokey Pokey and claim otherwise.”

“LOL..Tech, okay this is great, you obviously learned a LOT about Electronics but pretty much DOODLY about Electrical Distribution systems. Saying what percent of the Electricity coming out of the service Drop (or riser) at your house is "green energy" or claiming the hypocrital line that "I only use Green Energy" is the same thing as they have always done. Its boob bait for bubbas.

Lets say ALGORE Could actually use 100% green energy, I mean lets say he had a device that only allowed electrons (actually since you only get the closest electron that would be impossible) from Green Energy to come into his house. Since he is using such abysmally large amounts that means that there is less "green energy" for the little guy to use. Therefore since a term called Supply and demand (may not have covered that in your Economics class) would say the electric company in Tenn would have to produce much more of the "lower priced" electricity from NON green sources.

Either way he is still a hypocrite he demands we cut back our lifestyle, destroy our lives (um to pay him) but he sees nothing wrong in living as he sees fit.”

“WAIT...... It just hit me. These Carbon credits are like paying people for NOT GROWING crops....

AHEM Mr. ALGORE I am opening a business to sell Carbon credits. So when you decide to fly your Gulfstream to say...California, I will apply for a credit for NOT flying my Gulfstream that weekend. Now you pay me say Cost plus 25% I think we can make a deal.”

““I believe if I said "the sky is blue" XL would ROTFLMAO, do the Hokey Pokey and claim otherwise.”
techntrek
2:42:18 PM
3/05/07

Ha ha ha ha !!!!

Of all the strident idiots XL may well be my favorite.”

“Well you know this had to come up (LOL)

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html”

“The only green credits that Al Gore is buying are being purchased from a company that he owns. Green electricity does not go directly into Al Gores circuit breaker. He gets the same power as everyone else on the grid.

I never realized people were so gullible.”

“bacpac and XL - Amazing that even when I completely agree with you, you still reply as contrarians. You just like to argue negatively, right?

"So yes, in reality all the houses clustered around a wind turbine are the ones that actually get to use the electricity that it puts on the grid. And in reality my juice comes from the nuclear plant, maybe a coal plant." - me

Then XL right after that: "Saying what percent of the Electricity coming out of the service Drop (or riser) at your house is "green energy" or claiming the hypocrital line that "I only use Green Energy" is the same thing as they have always done....Lets say ALGORE Could actually use 100% green energy, I mean lets say he had a device that only allowed electrons (actually since you only get the closest electron that would be impossible) from Green Energy to come into his house..."

And bacpac: "Green electricity does not go directly into Al Gores circuit breaker. He gets the same power as everyone else on the grid."




You guys need to read what is posted, you only make yourselves look bad. So I'll say it again another way: the laws of Physics do ensure that the electrons produced by a wind turbine or hydro dam actually go to the houses that are next door. But in the real world since all electrons are FUNGIBLE, it doesn't matter what their source is. As long as my green allotment is put on the grid somewhere (could be in France, doesn't matter), I have paid to eliminate my contribution to the pollution caused by my energy use.








"Of all the strident idiots XL may well be my favorite.” - MarkO

Amen.”

“the laws of Physics do ensure that the electrons produced by a wind turbine or hydro dam - techntrek

I didn't realize electrons were "produced" in a power plant!”

“The electromotive force that drives them certainly is, and that dumbs down (for the intended audience), to the electrons themselves. Kind of like so many people say that oil wells produce oil. Obviously they don't, they are just the driving force that pulls the oil out of the ground. It was ancient vegetation and millions of years that actually produced the oil. But for simplicity sake everyone just says that oil wells produce oil.

Duh.


So now all you have left to pick on is technicalities? Tisk, tisk. I'm sure you've done the same Mutt.”

“Actually, your point on this makes sense to me, techntrek, though I'm far from expert on the electrical grid.

The power plants on the grid provide the "push" against the collective resistance, right? If a portion of that push were to come from "green" sources, that's a step in the right direction, correct?”

“Exactly right. Whether the force is air, water, steam, whatever, ultimately they all drive an axle that moves permanent magnets past windings. The interaction of the magnetic field moving past the windings pushes the electrons forward. First in one direction, then the other. The collective force of all the generators on the North American grid satisfies the demand of all the consumers on the grid. At that moment. Since electricity can flow long distances, the lights in DC can be kept on even if the nuclear plant at Calvert Cliffs, MD goes down for servicing. The demand is just met by generators that are farther away. The down side is there is some loss in the lines the farther away your source is, because even low resistance power lines have a high resistance when you add all the miles up. The more that the demand is met by green sources - no matter where they are located - the better.

A good analogy is water pipes. A water pump compresses the water molecules to create pressure (i.e. voltage). You only need a little bit of pressure to move water a few feet, but if you are going to move it across town you need to overcome the collective resistance in the pipe walls over the long distance.

Which is why PV on every roof is so great. You eliminate the long transmission distances so you eliminate all that resistive loss.

Back on topic, ignoring the line losses, it doesn't matter if my power company puts up some wind turbines or if I put some PV on my roof, either way my demand is being met by green sources. However, line losses are real, so the best option is the PV on my own roof. Since I can't afford to do that yet I have the next best option - green power from the power company.
last edited: 3/06/07 8:18:11 AM”

“Slow down guys, I'm still creating electrons above.”