Global Warming

“Sarge - that was one proof of God I heard a philosophy prof in college use. You can believe or not believe, there are 4 outcomes and only one has a positive outcome.
last edited: 11/13/07 2:26:29 PM”

“Ask scientists if you really want to know.

Wing nut propagandists make their own reality.�
MarkO
3:57:01 PM
11/13/07


One in the same.”

“"If we try to improve and we're wrong, then we have a cleaner planet. If we don't try to improve and we're wrong then, rut-rho”
dayhiker
5:01:17 PM
11/13/07

The problem with that is if we choose the wrong solution then we are still rut-rho. The Kyoto agreement hamstrings the US while not requiring any actions from Chinese (who has probably bypassed us in carbon emissions) or India. I happen to think all the action we can do won't stem the tide of global warming. The Earth warms and cools all on its own. We should be worrying more about responding to changes in the environment rather than futilely trying to stop them.”

“Good point. Maybe I should start studying levee design.

Sarge, I'll bite, what's the carbon thing you're asking about?”

“The U.S. should be putting our resources into acquiring Mars and other terraformable satellites throughout the solar system.”

“Forget Kyoto. Buy a solar system. It supports the local economy and cuts your personal CO2 output. Win-win, and no benefits conceded to China or India.”

“I actually looked into that. It takes freakin forever for it to pay for itself.”

“Okay tech but WHICH solar system should I buy? I am thinking this one is going to be pretty steep (even if they give you a discount for Pluto).”

“You should get that discount now that Pluto has been downgraded in it's planet status.


When my 7 year old people tells people there are only 8 planets he gets funny looks and lots of corrections.”

“tech, you've been punked by 5 seconds.”

“DH - solar thermal has a quick payback, usually less than 7 years for a domestic water heating system. Slightly longer if you go whole-hog and warm your house with it. Solar thermal and electric will have shorter payback times as energy costs continue to rise.

XL - I hear they recently confirmed a 5th planet around a sun only a few dozen light years from here. You probably can get that system on discount due to its remote location and unconfirmed habitable planets.

edit: actually Sarge it was 4 minutes.
last edited: 11/14/07 6:17:09 AM”

“Sarge, I'll bite, what's the carbon thing you're asking about?

Gore lied in Inconvenient Truth when he put a graph up overlaying carbon level and temperature levels. He neglected to tell the audience that he shifted the graphs horizontally. In actuallity, the temperature changes precede the carbon level by 300 years.

Why the lie? That's his major contention, yet it's false as presented.”

“Links for further study?”

“�The U.S. should be putting our resources into acquiring Mars and other terraformable satellites throughout the solar system.�
Sarge
9:06:56 AM
11/14/07
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�Forget Kyoto. Buy a solar system. It supports the local economy and cuts your personal CO2 output. Win-win, and no benefits conceded to China or India.�
techntrek
9:07:01 AM
11/14/07
last edited: 11/14/07 6:18:16 AM”

“�Links for further study?�

It was in An Inconvenient Truth.”

“Ah, I hadn't seen your post until now. Kind of funny that they work so well together.”

“You dudes been lying out on the lawn at night with Dennis'Weuwww'Kucinich?”

“LOL...And we wonder why the kids feel like they have NOTHING to look forward to in life.....”

“I know the charts were in the movie, I'm talking about links that discuss the mis-matched charts.”

“Wow. There are many. Try googling on Vostok ice core graph. Aside from many websites debunking the lie, it is also one of the 11 items proven to be a lie in the recent British trial of Stewart Dimmock's lawsuit.”

“35 inconvenient truths - The errors in Al Gore's movie

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html”

“LOL...hyway...they are going to excommunicate you from the "outdoor" stuff....”

“Where Al Gore left off AG Jerry Brown of Cal is taking over to cut back carbon to 1990 levels. He is not an Al Gore and will get it done. I'd expect Jerry to be after some of you asses in the next few years. EEhaw!!Rise again my butt.”

“Point-By-Point Demolition Of The "Nine Errors" From Gore's Movie: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/10/convenient-untruths/”

“Cool site.”

“.
last edited: 11/14/07 5:34:04 PM”

“LOL! That is a "DEMOLITION"?? Please!

What we're talking about folks is Al Gore in his propaganda movie full of LIES claimed (by showing a graph) that there is a direct correlation between CO2 and global temperature, the implication being that rises in CO2 causes a rise in average temperature, therefore our CO2 production must be causing global warming. He even overlayed 2 graphed lines, one of CO2 levels of the earth, and another of global temperature. They fit PERFECTLY! What he failed to mention was that the 2 lines don't really overlap precisely, but the CO2 rise FOLLOWS the rise in temperature by several hundred years ... LOL!

So, how does the left explain this?

Here is what they said -

A full understanding of why CO2 changes in precisely the pattern that it does during ice ages is elusive,

the full understanding is "elusive" - LMAO!!!

but among the most plausible explanations is that increased received solar radiation in the southern hemisphere due to changes in Earth's orbital geometry warms the southern ocean, releasing CO2 into the atmosphere,

HOLD ON there spankey! The "earth's orbital geometry warms the southern ocean" ??? ... What you mean to say is the SUN warms the ocean because of the earth's tilt - The only problem there being that the earth ALWAYS tilts and rotates to and fro around the sun on an ANNUAL basis ... not every 300 or so years! This dude completely forgot to explain the CORRELATION between the earth's orbit and the increased CO2 levels. But, he sure did throw in a couple cool phrases, like "earth's orbital geometry", ... right?!

which then leads to further warming through an enhanced greenhouse effect.

Further warming? Uh, you forgot to show an INITIAL warming correlation, let alone a "further" one. LMAO!

Gore's terse explanation of course does not mention such complexities,

"Complexes"? You mean the earth/sun relationship?

but the crux of his point–that the observed long-term relationship between CO2 and temperature in Antarctica supports our understanding of the warming impact of increased CO2 concentrations–is correct.

WHOA DOWN there horsey! Yeah! We know there is a direct correlation. You're supposed to be explaining why the temperature rise comes BEFORE the CO2 levels, in a DIRECT correlation. LMAO! (I'm loving your link Phaeddy)

Moreover, our knowledge of why CO2 is changing now (fossil fuel burning) is solid. We also know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and that the carbon cycle feedback is positive (increasing temperatures lead to increasing CO2 and CH4), implying that future changes in CO2 will be larger than we might anticipate.

Translation - "We forgot to explain why Gore's lie isn't a lie, so we're going to conclude by telling you it's man's fault anyways ... !

LOL! This is classic! Klassic!





So, anybody want to actually try to show why Gore's lie isn't a lie, or should we end with this classic link by Phaeddy?
last edited: 11/14/07 5:39:14 PM”

“Park the car in the garage running, shut the garage door, is that enough or do you need more?”

“A reality-based view of the world can be quite confusing if one is not accustomed to thinking in those terms.

Armageddon is coming so there's no need to worry, right?”

“I love it that when you don't agree with the man-made warming "theory" you're dismissed as confused or non-reality based. LOL! WEAK!




From the Terminator:

This is great stuff. I could make a career out of this guy. You see how clever this part is...how it doesn't require a shred of proof. Most paranoid delusions are intricate...but this is brilliant.”

“

"I'm here today to tell you the good news that our world is about to burn up in a fiery ball! Seas will rise and catch on fire! Volcanoes will erupt and turn us to ash where we stand! Dancing with the Stars will get another season's run!"”

“maybe they ought to ask Al to dance next season........now THAT would put their ratings thru the roof..........”

“As previously noted (about four times, now), we know who came up with the denial routine of "Science as a religion" almost twenty years ago.... and how much the coal companies paid for it:


"Groups that opposed greenhouse curbs ramped up. They "settled on the 'science isn't there' argument because they didn't believe they'd be able to convince the public to do nothing if climate change were real," says David Goldston, who served as Republican chief of staff for the House of Representatives science committee until 2006. Industry found a friend in Patrick Michaels, a climatologist at the University of Virginia who keeps a small farm where he raises prize-winning pumpkins and whose favorite weather, he once told a reporter, is "anything severe." Michaels had written several popular articles on climate change, including an op-ed in The Washington Post in 1989 warning of "apocalyptic environmentalism," which he called "the most popular new religion to come along since Marxism." The coal industry's Western Fuels Association paid Michaels to produce a newsletter called World Climate Report, which has regularly trashed mainstream climate science. (At a 1995 hearing in Minnesota on coal-fired power plants, Michaels admitted that he received more than $165,000 from industry; he now declines to comment on his industry funding, asking, "What is this, a hatchet job?")"


The Truth About Denial

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20122975/site/newsweek/page/0/

”

“Weather Channel boss calls global warming 'the greatest scam in history'

By Our Foreign Staff
Last Updated: 11:01am GMT 09/11/2007


"It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM," John Coleman wrote in an article published on ICECAP, the International Climate and Environmental Change Assessment Project, which is known for challenging widely published theories on global warming.
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The maverick weather forecaster is known for his regular critic of widely accepted global warming theories. The Weather Channel broadcasts weather forecasts and weather-related news in the US 24 hours a day.

His views challenge the consensus of the international science community that it is at least 90 per cent certain that temperatures will continue to rise, with average global surface temperature projected to increase by between 1.4 and 5.8ºC above 1990 levels by 2100.

This increase will be accompanied by rising sea levels, more intense precipitation events in some countries, increased risk of drought in others, and adverse effects on agriculture, health and water resources.

A recent joint statement by the scientific academies of 17 countries, including the UK's Royal Society, endorsed the theory of climate change and dismissed doubts raised over the need for action to mitigate possible damage caused by climate change.

"We do not consider such doubts justified," the group said in a joint statement, urging prompt action to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases.

But Mr Colemen slams their views as part of a global conspiracy: "Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data to create in [sic] allusion of rapid global warming."

"Other scientists of the same environmental whacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the "research" to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus.

"Environmental extremists, notable politicians among them, then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild "scientific" scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda.

"Now their ridiculous manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens.

"Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment."

He added: "I have read dozens of scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct.

"There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril."

Clicky”

“Try and tell me that global warming scare tactics aren't about power and money...

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“I just read V link to a supposed point by point demolition of the 9 errors. demolition? It looked more like a groomsman explaining to the bride why the groom was out all night and had somehow managed to get cherry red lipstick marks all over his manhood.”

“LOL....The light is on....the Socialists from the failed religion of Communisim have been discovered.”

“Climate change denial on that level isn't faith-based.... It's more like Cash-and-Carry.

At this level it's only Internet trolling --- like Spock, Alaska, USA etc.

”

“Really hyway? Care to explain in detail what you find fault with? Do you have any sources you can cite?
last edited: 11/15/07 5:19:05 AM”

“v-man - You mean you need more than where I ripped apart their NON-explanation for Gore's lie?”

“Direct quote from V's link:

"The judge, Justice Burton found that "Al Gore's presentation of the causes and likely effects of climate change in the film was broadly accurate"... There has been a lot of comment and controversy over this decision because of the judges commentary on 9 alleged "errors" (note the quotation marks!) in the movie's description of the science. The judge referred to these as 'errors' in quotations precisely to emphasize that, while these were points that could be contested, it was not clear that they were actually errors..."


Whoops.”

“The judge referred to these as 'errors' in quotations precisely to emphasize that, while these were points that could be contested, it was not clear that they were actually errors..."
Whoops.�
techntrek
7:57:33 AM
11/15/07


Not clear they were errors probably means it's not clear they were true either.
last edited: 11/15/07 6:03:25 AM”

“tech - They clearly were errors (lies). Even Laqtis's website (lol) didn't deny that. He tried to explain it away. Nobody is saying that Al Gore was RIGHT in overlaying the two graphs like he did. You should look into this more before trying to defend it.”

“Actually by reading more of the article in V's link, it is quite clear that Gore was right. In the case of the charts, the CO2 jumped up before the temps rose (as Gore said in the film), but then due to feedback loops the CO2 continued to rise much more than the initial jump long after the temps rose.

These feedback loops have already been demonstrated in our current environment, where we can now monitor them in more detail.”

“The whole thing read to me like the Bland Blather smarmy reply for the lies about Bush's service record.”

“the CO2 jumped up before the temps rose (as Gore said in the film)

quote? where did the article talk about this? I'd like to know how much they think it did, or at least see a graph demonstrating this.”

“Ice-sheet driven sea level rise Gore correctly asserted that melting of Greenland or the West Antarctic ice sheet would raise sea levels 20ft (6 meters). In the movie, no timescale for that was specified, but lest you think that the 20 ft number is simply plucked out of thin air, you should note that this is about how much higher sea level was around 125,000 years ago during the last inter-glacial period. I suppose Gore never actually said it, but the judge agreed its what he implied and fully expected people to believe. Its exactly how a politician would frame his "truth" and why nothing in that movie should be accepted as a fact.

two things, first there is the statement the ice sheet has melted before when no humans were here to cause it. Second, from 35 Inconvenient Truths... Gore says that a sea-level rise of up to 6 m (20 ft) will be caused by melting of either West Antarctica or Greenland. Though Gore does not say that the sea-level rise will occur in the near future, the judge found that, in the context, it was clear that this is what he had meant, since he showed expensive graphical representations of the effect of his imagined 6 m (20 ft) sea-level rise on existing populations, and he quantified the numbers who would be displaced by the sea-level rise.

Pacific island nations needing to evacuate In the movie there is only one line that referred to this: "That's why the citizens of these pacific nations have all had to evacuate to New Zealand", which is out of context in the passage it's in, but could be said to only be a little ahead of it's time.

So a fact is something that might happen in the future if you only wish hard enough? Not to mention that the reason they would have to evacuate is due more to dynamiting of reefs or over-extraction of fresh water by local populations.

Climate impacts on the ocean conveyor The model simulations in the latest IPCC report show a slowdown in the circulation - by about 30% by 2100 - but there is much we don't understand about modeling that circulation and future inputs of freshwater from the ice sheets, so few are willing to completely rule out the possibility of a more substantial change in the future.

If there is much you don't understand about modeling the circulation then why do you put any stock in the model. people unwilling to rule out a possibility is a far cry from making the possibility a fact.

CO2 and Temperature connections in the ice core record Gore stated that the greenhouse gas levels and temperature changes over ice age signals had a complex relationship but that they 'fit'.

This statement is so erroneous that is not even worth debating. Gore was clearly stating that CO2 increases caused temperatures to go up, so this author is obviously just trying to scrub the lipstick off gore's manhood. It is a widely accepted that changes in temperature preceded changes in CO2 concentration by hundreds of years.

do you need me to keep going point by point?”

“Just wait, 'Truths' sequel 'The Tin Contaminants', will be out in a couple months.
Gorebal Warming isn't over-look at all interest being collected.
last edited: 11/15/07 7:49:50 AM”

“You know watching the hypocrisy of what ALGORE says to what he does reminds me of the Heresies of the various challenges to the Catholics. Where they would point out how the church directs people to seek poverty but the leadership lives in absolute splendor.....”