Global Warming

“Nice try on the oil but there hasnt been any major finds in like 20 years. sattelite mapping and other technology has located every possible field except in two areas and they are not drillable anyway. We dont have 30 years of oil either. Transportation in this country is completely dependant on oil and major shortages are predicted to begin as early as 2012. I suspect we will find out whos right very soon. ( I pity whoever is president when the lights do go out )

What most reports ignore is the ever increasing population of the world. Everytime a person is born the per capita oil goes down . By 2030 the amount that a person will have availible will fall to less then what we each had/used in the 1930's....

Come to think of it all this would explain why Bush is so motivated to hold on to Iraq.....


Thanks Techntrek,
Solar thermal is a possibility but I will have to figure out the storage problem to cover cloudy days...perhaps a geo-heat pump for supplimental heating? reliably extracting 8 million BTU's is quite a challenge.”

“"Nice try on the oil but there hasnt been any major finds in like 20 years."

There was just a major find in the Gulf of Mexico a couple of months back.

Here's a fast-food media link for ya:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/05/news/companies/chevron_gulf/index.htm


With the ice melting, polar regions are opening up that are thought to contain major amounts of resources as well. There is currently a continental shelf turf war happening. Seems as though Russia could stand to make a wind fall if Stalins territory claims hold up.
last edited: 2/05/07 9:29:28 PM”

“What a demonstrative cross section of american problem solving, you'd make the french proud.”

“That’s great scientific method stuff, SS. I love the flow chart. How true, how true. You and I both know that it not only applies to this debate, but most debates. Many people either don't remember what they learned about the scientific method, or they chose to ignore it. How many times have I seen that in my discussions?

One front page article in my local paper had a huge headline about how human induced global warming is now a proven fact! About two paragraphs into the article they mention that “dozens” of scientists agree on that “fact.” I almost spit out my cornflakes it was so funny. Even with some good science to back up the theories, global warming is the latest leftist media crusade. Expect every “junk science” study to be reported.

Unfortunately, my bias kicks in when I’m being force-fed propagandist BS. But being discriminating isn’t a bad idea. I’ve always believed in the saying, “Question Authority!” Our generation actually came up with some pretty good ideas when we weren’t too wasted.

I’ll probably do research on more of the studies to get a better idea about what I can do personally. It won’t change my philosophy that I cannot condone using government to force people to behave in a way that I find acceptable. We have a legal system to correct abuses against others. Pre-emptive control of behavior should be kept to a minimum since it always entails a loss of liberty. That’s what Thomas Jefferson believed in, and I think he was a pretty wise guy.

Unlike the codependent left, I don’t feel that I can save the world from itself. I can improve MY behavior and act according to those ideas which I have found to make the most rational sense. I discover those rational ideas by trying to recognize my bias and doing my best to apply the scientific method to EVERYTHING.
last edited: 2/06/07 6:25:06 AM”

““Stovey, everyone knows you throw turds. It's just understood; it's who you are.”
Nimblefoot
8:41:00 PM
2/05/07

Nimblefoot, your ass is grass now!
Its been nice knowin' ya.”

“What's you cooking for dinner tonight, mArkO?
Wear that nice pink apron.
LOL”

“Cheney's Fund Manager Attacks ... Cheney

The oil-based energy policies usually associated with Vice President Dick Cheney have just come under scathing attack. There's nothing remarkable about that, of course -- except the person doing the attacking.

Step forward, Jeremy Grantham -- Cheney's own investment manager. "What were we thinking?' Grantham demands in a four-page assault on U.S. energy policy mailed last week to all his clients, including the vice president.

Titled "While America Slept, 1982-2006: A Rant on Oil Dependency, Global Warming, and a Love of Feel-Good Data," Grantham's philippic adds up to an extraordinary critique of U.S. energy policy over the past two decades.

What Cheney makes of it can only be imagined.

Yet "there is now nearly universal scientific agreement that fossil fuel use is causing a rise in global temperatures," he writes. "The U.S. is the only country in which environmental data is steadily attacked in a well-funded campaign of disinformation funded mainly by one large oil company."

read more about the rats jumping the sinking ship”

“I'm picking my wife up at the airport and we will choose from a great number of ethnic places in the city to have dinner.

One or more of the boys will probably join us.

I reckon you will be going home to an empty house, SS.
At least there won't likely be an humans there.

I made chicken burritos last night!
The boys ate 'em up!
Lots of fresh cilantro and garlic does the trick.”

“Interesting that the Earth is NOT the only orb to be warming.....

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2006-05-04-jupiter-jr-spot_x.htm?POE=TECISVA

"The latest images could provide evidence that Jupiter is in the midst of a global change that can modify temperatures by as much as 10 degrees Fahrenheit on different parts of the globe."

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19980526052143data_trunc_sys.shtml

There may not be much industrial pollution on Neptune's largest moon, but things are hotting up nonetheless...
[QUOTE]
The Earth is not alone in suffering global warming. According to observations made by NASA's Hubble Space Telescope and several ground-based instruments, temperatures on Neptune's largest moon have increased dramatically since the Voyager space probe swung by in 1989. So much so, in fact, that Triton's surface of frozen nitrogen is turning into gas, making its thin atmosphere denser by the day.[/QUOTE]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4266474.stm

"The agency's scientists also say that deposits of frozen carbon dioxide near the planet's south pole have shrunk for three summers in a row.

They say this is evidence to suggest climate change is in progress."

Interesting. I can't believe I haven't heard this mentioned before.

"A comparison

You may ask the consensus scientists: why is there such a difference between the explanations for the warming of the Earth and the other planets and their moons? It's because the Earth is the center of the Universe, they would answer. You could also ask: why do all these planets and moons indicate warming? Shut up, the consensus scientists would answer.

Some of them would tell you that your paradox is resolved by the anthropic principle: the people on Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto, Mars, Triton, and other celestial bodies cannot complain about the anthropogenic global warming because... because these people don't exist! :-)

The debate is over, Al Gore, our prophet, has announced. Terrestrial global warming, caused by the human sins, is no longer a political issue: it is now a spiritual issue. Now it's time to punish the heretics who deny that the Earth as the center of the Universe is special because of the humans who were created to the image of God - and because of their sins and SUVs."”

“WTF is wrong with being a stay at home dad?
I'd be glad to do that. My daughter is hell of a lot more fun and rewarding than haggling over design issues with programmers and bankers all frickin day.”

“Now, now. We must not question our 'betters'.
They might throw a hissy fit.
LOL”

“why do you bother responding to his lame personal attacks, marko? hes like the smart ass kid in the back of the class in 6th grade who made fart noises while the class was trying to take a test. he loves to accuse others of being trolls, but he has proven time and again what he is made of. he brings nothing to a discussion except things he can understand....name calling and cartoons.”

““WTF is wrong with being a stay at home dad?"

Not a thing wrong with that, I did it for five years from '92 to '97.
'92 was the end of daycare for my family and also way fewer doctor visits for things that little kids share.
I'm one hell of a chow cook and the boys are pretty good cooks too.
They like to eat!

I know Hikerboy, I should really ignore those psychos.”

“Living off your wife your entire adult life is not something to brag about, LOL.”

“I could handle being a kept man...so long as it was by a woman.”

“I've been making a living since age 19 and married since 29.

I'm not braggin about anything, ScrewBall.

Try soaking your head, that may clear up some of the schithead issues that you have.”

“Ha Ha”

“Hee hee”

“tee hee, ha ha, lol, j/k, VBG, :), ;), etc.”

“http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

Yet another voice in the wilderness stating the obvious truth.

Knock, knock, hello people, there is a giant nuclear furnace that rises in our sky every morning, during periods when the giant nuclear furnace puts out more energy (like the last couple of decades), the planet warms up and vice versa.

But that explanation is far too easy, and if everyone agreed on it there would be no funding for all of these scientists claiming that CO2 is causing the warming, so they stick with it to protect their jobs.

I guess it's too easy to ignore that fact that there's a direct correlation between the sun's increased energy output and the amount of warming here. Or that other bodies in the solar system have been heating up too (and no one's driving cars there)”

“"Solar thermal is a possibility but I will have to figure out the storage problem to cover cloudy days...perhaps a geo-heat pump for supplimental heating? reliably extracting 8 million BTU's is quite a challenge." - Lumberjack

That's exactly what I'm going to do. They make ground-sourced heat pumps that can co-exist with solar thermal systems. When the solar system slacks off the GSHP takes up the flag and keeps the radiant floor heat going. Then in the summer you have the GSHP to supply duct-based A/C, while your solar system continues to supply 100% of your domestic hot water needs. In reality you have to cover up about 3/4 of your solar panels in the spring to keep your coolant from frying, or build in a large "heat dump" to take the heat load over the summer. Easier and cheaper to just cover the panels, several at a time as the temps start to rise.

8 million BTU's is a small load. That's equivalent to about 1/3 of a cord of Red Oak. I use at least 96 million BTU's of wood, probably more, each year. Plus more BTU's coming from my heat pump upstairs on the coldest days. One system I read about used something like 24 solar panels and two 1000 gallon water tanks. Its not cheap off the starting line but the payback is excellent.”

“Bison, let's ignore the warming thing for a minute. Our CO2 output has gone off the charts in the last 100 years, entirely by our own hand. All those buried fossil fuels burned up in the blink of an eye. That CO2 is being absorbed by the oceans and is making them more acidic. That is in turn killing off coral reefs and other aquatic life. If only for that reason alone we need to reverse our emissions.

Then there's the particulate problem. All that oil and coal burning has thrown the suspended particulates in the atmosphere off the charts, too. With that comes huge increases in asthma and other respiratory problems. For us and other animals. That would be a 2nd good reason to stop doing what we are doing.

The heat isn't the only problem.”

“The "Grant-seeking Scientist" arguement is getting a lot of mileage these days.”

“You need to get your mind out of the 50s SS - perhaps this is a reason why you're not so successful on the dating front.

Quite a few women I've dated have earned more money than me - including one I married - some of them made several times what you say you earn.
Marriage is a partnership - and when I start a family I have no problem if the best thing for this partnership is that I stay at home.
Maybe you need to wake up to what's important in life.
last edited: 2/06/07 10:19:42 AM”

“A new branch of physics,'family warming' is raising the messenger/ message ratio to new heights.”

“A collection of rebuttals for the most prominent arguments put forth by those who deny anthropogenic climate change.

1. Mars is undergoing global warming, therefore humans can not be causing it on Earth.

No. Mars is not undergoing global warming. The Mars Global Surveyor detected a decrease in the mass of the South Polar Cap between 1999 and 2005. First, this is a regional (not global) warming localized to the south pole of mars. There is no similar data for any corresponding temperature change at either the north pole or any other part of Mars. Secondly, since a Martian year is 687 days, this represents only 3 data points, which does not equate to the long-term trend we see on Earth. (Indeed, we see dramatic peaks and valleys in the yearly temperature data on Earth.) Lastly, research has shown that Mars’ climate is far more volatile than our own, and is quite sensitive to changes in dust storm activity and orbital variations. If most of the planets and moons in the solar system were exhibiting warming trends, that would be a valid point for argument.

2. Volcanoes release much more carbon dioxide than humans.

No. Volcanic activity is 0.02 to 0.05 Giga-tons/year. [Note: 1 Peta-gram (PgC) = 1 Gigaton (Gt)] Humans produce 8 Gt/yr (and climbing). Volcanoes elicit a far more dominating cooling effect due to atmospheric dispersal of particulates and sulfur dioxide. In addition, there has been no recent increase in volcanic activity – and the volcanic activity we have seen has actually slowed global warming.

3. The Earth (and its carbon cycle) is too big for humans to affect it.

While the Earth exchanges a great deal of carbon between the ocean, atmosphere, soil, and biosphere, it is the net balance which is of greatest concern to us. Without human influence, this regulatory process produces a net carbon increase of 0.0 Gt/year. During 1850-2000, through a combination of fossil fuel burning, cement manufacturing, and land-use changes, humans added a net 174 Gt of carbon. This caused the majority of an increase from 288 ppm (parts per million) to 369.5 ppm of CO2. As mentioned above, we currently add 8 Gt/year to the atmosphere.

4. The sea level has not changed.

Yes, it has. Since 1900, sea level has risen by about 35 cm (13.8 inches). This change in sea level is accelerating.

5. Scientists predicted imminent global cooling in the 1970s.

No, they did not. Some magazines reported it as such, but scientists understood that their preliminary, localized, and uncertain measurements could not be extrapolated to either the world or a long-term trend. They did indicate that the potential for an ice age in the next 20,000 years was possible, but they made no predictions. Climate science has advanced tremendously in the intervening years, as has the data, and the conclusions for our climate are far more certain.

6. Scientists get paid big bucks to skew their data to indicate global warming.

No, they don’t. There is little commercial funding available for research designed to support global warming. It is far more lucrative to produce research denying global warming. With little exception, funding for climate research is provided by governments, which do not attach conditions to the results of the research (OK…maybe some conditions).
Logically, of course, it doesn’t make sense that corporations or governments would want to fund skewed studies that indicate their entire way of living is threatening the planet. And with tens of thousands of scientists producing research indicating human-induced global warming, the task to compromise the ethics of so many esteemed professionals would be, to say the least, challenging.

7. Variations in solar output cause global warming

While global warming could not occur without solar influx, the sun’s output has been relatively stable for as long as we’ve studied it, and has in fact been declining in recent years. Solar variability plays a very small role, if any, in global warming.

8. All temperature data is suspect due to the urban heat island effect.

That argument might be valid if all measurements were taken in the heart of cities. But they aren’t. Thermometers in the middle of the arctic, in barren deserts, in the middle of oceans, on top of mountains, and deep in the wilderness all agree on a global temperature rise. Unless you believe that the urban heat island effect can affect satellites, this claim is clearly wrong.

9. Because it snowed a great deal and got very cold in some areas, global warming is not happening.

First, increased precipitation is predicted by global warming. Increased snowfall events are further evidence of global warming, not proof against it. Second, regional temperature variations occur. It is the global average temperature which is of greatest concern. And third, temperatures vary. Even record cold global temperatures for an entire year would not be out of step with global warming. Global warming is about the long-term average trend.

10. It is not possible to distinguish the effects of human activities from natural processes with regard to CO2.

That is not true. We know how much CO2 is produced from burning a barrel of oil and we know how many barrels of oil we use. Similarly, we know how much CO2 certain types of plants absorb and we have solid estimates for how many of each type of plant exist. The same goes for volcanoes, the ocean, and the soil. It is a matter of collecting this data, which is the task undertaken by hundreds of scientists. Estimates vary, but they all agree on one point -- humans are causing global warming.”

“Nice try hikerboy, but NONE of your items addressed ANY of the issues I posted.”

“What's you cooking for dinner tonight, mArkO?
Wear that nice pink apron.
LOL”
StoveStomper

homophobe alert !! homophobe alert!!

also, Stove, I'd like to point out that the 50s have been over going on 50 years.

I realize that this is a difficult thing for you to accept, but your shovenist ways are not fashionable anymore.
last edited: 2/06/07 10:54:12 AM”

“Nawwwwwwwwwwwww..............
Pink just suits pinko mArKo better.
LOL”

“seems to me the color frieghtens you and your closet tendencies.

not that there is anything wrong with that...
last edited: 2/06/07 10:57:11 AM”

“Actually Chin hikerboy did address your Mars link.

As far as the other two go. Everyone knows that there are other factors besides human activity that cause climate change. Indeed, climate scientists have tried to apportion what degree of global warming comes from human activity and what proportion comes from other factors including sun cycles.

The Jupiter article doesn't even indicate there is evidence that the planet is warming, just that heat is being re-distributed. Reading the the article makes it clear that it is not about the planet warming, but movement in long term storm patterns.

As for the other link - its one moon. There also seem to be identifiable sources for the effect.

I know people prefer certainty. People prefer to think either that we know human activity is dangerously warming the planet, or the whole idea is hogwash. Let's all not stop thinking too soon.”

“I have an apron in basic black.
How's that?

I don't care too much for money
'Cause money cain't buy me love

(Go Georgie!!)”

“How's that Insurance job going, EarthNsky?
Helped your big bosses cheat any more people out of their valid claims lately?
LOL”

“did you know that even the insurance industry, which usually lobbies with Republicans and is a conservative industry is accepting global warming? I say bravo! This is good news for you stovie, accept it or not.
last edited: 2/06/07 11:12:30 AM”

“Maybe you should go to Walmart for your insurance next time SS.”

“Notice he didn't answer my question. LOL”

“and I won't because, you don't even know what you're talking about.”

“I thought it was ironic that a symposium of insurance commissioners/leaders, in place to study whether global warming contributed to natural catastrophes, was canceled when Hurricane Katrina swamped the New Orleans hotel where the conference was to be held.

Guess that helped to answer that question in their minds.”

“Yep, I don't know anything about insurance or my fellow hurricane survivors being cheated by those friendly helpful insurance companies like the one EnS works for.
I guess you have not read about all the lawsuits State Farm and those other helpful Insurance Companies have lost lately.
What a nice bunch of folks!
LOL”

“The November polar shift of the 'Demolican party' Turd is hurling into oblivion on this board.”

“like I said, you don't know what your talking about.”

“and stovey pulls his ultimate card - where people are mostly too decent to say anything to him about.
We're all sorry your house got hit - that doesn't stop you being an #&%!$ or make your trolling, baiting and provoking acceptable.

Hurricane Survivor - tell us about that night SS - it must have been terrible.
last edited: 2/06/07 11:29:00 AM”

“"7. Variations in solar output cause global warming

While global warming could not occur without solar influx, the sun’s output has been relatively stable for as long as we’ve studied it, and has in fact been declining in recent years. Solar variability plays a very small role, if any, in global warming."

This is flatout false, just another explanation given by those scientist who depend on man-made global warming for their livelihood. Take a look at solar output versus temperature, they are in near perfect agreement.



last edited: 2/06/07 11:35:20 AM”

“"6. Scientists get paid big bucks to skew their data to indicate global warming.

No, they don’t. There is little commercial funding available for research designed to support global warming."


This is so laughable it doesn't even require an argument to rebut it.

Key words "little COMMERCIAL funding" nice little slight of hand there. There is tons of money in government and non-profit funding going to man-made global warming proponents.”

“"Hurricane Survivor - tell us about that night SS - it must have been terrible."

Oh yeah, he was probably up a tree, hangin' on for dear life like a scared puddy tat.”

“New trailname:)”

“Solar Variability & Global Warming
Some uncertainty remains about the role of natural variations in causing climate change. Solar variability certainly plays a minor role, but it looks like only a quarter of the recent variations can be attributed to the Sun. At most. During the initial discovery period of global warming, the magnitude of the influence of increased activity on the Sun was not well determined.

Solar irradiance changes have been measured reliably by satellites for only 30 years. These precise observations show changes of a few tenths of a percent that depend on the level of activity in the 11-year solar cycle. Changes over longer periods must be inferred from other sources. Estimates of earlier variations are important for calibrating the climate models. While a component of recent global warming may have been caused by the increased solar activity of the last solar cycle, that component was very small compared to the effects of additional greenhouse gases. According to a NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) press release, "...the solar increases do not have the ability to cause large global temperature increases...greenhouse gases are indeed playing the dominant role..." The Sun is once again less bright as we approach solar minimum, yet global warming continues.


http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html”

“Sure Y2, but Lush Rimbaugh says you are wrong.”