should scout leaders teach the facts of life?

“just responded to the differences in jgirl scouts and boy scouts and got me to thinking.... is this a subject be shoud bring up to our scouts(girls or boys)? not in great detail and i am thinking to high school age scouts. and more of the basics like, preganacy, aids, etc. in our venture crew(which has disbanded) we had a 19 y/o girl who was pregant this year but mis-carried. her long time boyfriend was not the father(they had broken up and now he has dropped out of college to become an army ranger). now in our troop we have a junior,in high school who will become a dad in december. and remember i am thinking more about the results of having un-protected sex. opinions?????? i suppose i would have to check to see if we could discuss this. oh and i forgot this punky freshman who had a condon in his scout book and when the leader went to check of something he said he wanted to be prepared.”

“IMHO Scouting was designed to provide a safe environment that allows kids to fail and have the support necessary to overcome that failure. Scouts take an oath to be "morally strait" a reminder of this oath doesn't hurt.

We can't insulate kids from the culture, just provide a visible example of how things should be done.”

“It's against the rules in BSA.”

“I'm Scoutmaster and frankly, I avoid treading on certain issues and/or toes. I know there's a degree of the "reverance" issue that some members in some places like to touch on. I avoid religion totally with my troop. I don't feel I should be the one to do that. I avoid politics with them, because I don't want parents coming back on me with a tirade. I guess I look at what you're saying and would probably shy away from it,too, as I don't think it's my place to go there with them. But, that's just the way I do things. Doesn't mean I am right. I am very strong on showing them a regard for the outdoors, wildlife and community service. Those are my strong points...
last edited: 10/11/05 7:30:40 AM”

“I'd be very very careful about stepping into that territory. I think parents and kids have strong expectations about what they get and don't get in the Scouts.”

“thanks for the comments, treebeast666 i had a feeling it was aganist the rules.”

“The punky Freshman's comment reminds me of Tom Lehrer's classic song (lyrics and intro, below, from a 1959 concert).

I have time for one more here. This one is a little song dedicated to the Boy Scouts of America, [applause] who seem to have a convention here tonight. The Boy Scouts of America, those noble little... bas[split second hesitation]tions of democracy, and the American Legion of tomorrow. Their motto is... I would like to state at this time that I am not now and have never been... a member of the... Boy Scouts of America. Their motto is, as you know, Be Prepared! and that is the name of this song.

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scouts' marching song,
Be prepared! As through life you march along.
Be prepared to hold your liquor pretty well.
Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell.

Be prepared! To hide that pack of cigarettes.
Don't make book if you cannot cover bets.
Keep those reefers hidden where you're sure that they will not be found,
And be careful not to smoke them when the scoutmaster's around,**
For he only will insist that they be shared, be prepared!

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scouts' solemn creed,
Be prepared! And be clean in word and deed.
Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice,
Unless you get a good percentage of her price.

Be prepared! And be careful not to do
Your good deeds when there's no one watching you.
If you're looking for adventure of a new and different kind,
And you come across a Girl Scout who is similarly inclined,
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared. Be prepared!”

“absolutely...that show has been off the air for about 15 or more years now...if someone doesn't teach the new generation about it the memory of trudy and blair and joe will just be forgotten and that would be a national tragedy”

“

You take the good you take the bad
you take them both and there you have
the facts of life
the facts of life
There's a time you've got to go
and show your grow'n and now you know
the facts of life
the facts of life”

“Thanks a lot, now I'm going to have that damn song stuck in my head all day. >:(”

“haa haa...it's interesting the things you find out when you're trying to be a smart ass...i just found out that Alan Thick(sp) actually wrote that theme song”

“The BSA strictly prohibits adults from discussing sex with the boys. But frankly it needs to be addressed. I do address it but I keep those discussions very small and I address the ramifications and reponsabilities of being sexually active. I also address what it means as far as the troop is concerned. I do not address the sex acts themselves.

Here's the thing. Lots of misguided folks would say that what happens outside of the meeting is not our business. They would be wrong. This is not the local good time babysitting club this is the BSA and we do expect members to actually live by the Scout Oath and Law. All of us, adult and youth.

Pregnant? Sorry you're out untill the baby is out. It's hard enough to be a volunteer responsable for a single kid but now you have to be responsable for a kid with another kid growing inside her? Nope, not me, no way. Not to mention the poor example being set for the rest of the crew. When Jr. is born we can discuss membership again but I'm thinking she will be a bit too busy.

The baby daddy is gone too. Sorry not even close to what we are all about.

He wanted to be prepared? Ok nice try. Who at the Scout meeting was he planning to be prepared for? Get on the phone, call your parents, we will have a little talk and he would take a break from Scouts untill he learns the meaning of the word appropriate.

Now sitting here and reading this response I can understand any impression one might get that my mode is to just toss out any kid that doesn't walk the straight and narrow. That isn't the case. A quick post on a complex subject gets a quick response as opposed to complex response it deserves. I actively work to keep kids in the program but very serious things require serious actions. The most important thing to me is the attitude of the kid in question AND the attitude of the adults. Kids that know, understand and take ownership of very bad decisions get greater consideration.

I've had the bad seeds/bad decision makers in our troop and I busted my butt to keep the bad seeds engaged and what really happened is that for two years the whole unit suffered and it took three years to get the troop back where it should have been all along. I'm not willing to do that again.

Politics have no place in the program. However discussing issues and having thoughtful dialog that works towards solving problems is part of what we are all about.

Religion is perfectly acceptable to share with the boys what you believe as long as you are not prostelatizing or pushing and you are trying to support them in their beliefs or their own quest to form those beliefs.”

“I was looking forward to your reply HPM. They are always well thought out.”

“I don't know man, one man's facts can be quite different from another man's facts. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

It should be taught by mom and dad at home.”

“So Cyndeee, I do believe you should address it but be very careful how you do it because presenting "sexual content" to the kids is a remove offense and the definition of "sexual content" is subjective. GET PARENT BUY IN BEFORE YOU TALK TO A KID.

Probably one of the best methods is the 'ole Scoutmaster Minute at the end of a meeting. Lots of specific issues can be addressed in general way through allegorical discussions and reflections.

Sometimes just asking a kid to think about an issue and to tell you what they think the outcome might be can work wonders.”

“Oh man. I have been asked to start up a new Venture Crew and I have to tell you this wasn't on the radar screen of issues I was prepared to think about. I was focusing on what I thought were the basics.

Also, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this, I didn't think about girls in the Venture Crew. It's not that I was thinking "only boys". I was just told to go "draft" members of the crew and the places I was told I could draft were places where I suspect there would only be boys. This discussion has added a whole new dimension to what I have been asked to do that I had not considered. That's what I love about this message board. I seem to learn something new all the time here.”

“I need to amend something here. Cyndeee I think you should address the issue without teaching the facts of life. Does that make sense?

I agree completely Nigal BUT many things can be addressed without usurping the authority of the parents. And I do have the buy-in of the parents.

Kids need to hear what their parent have been telling them from someone other than their parents. They tend to listen and accept things more readily when they come form sources other than mom and dad.


Pitts, your crew does not have to accept female members.
last edited: 10/11/05 9:31:34 AM”

“Remember Pitts you get girls on your venture crew then you must have adult females on every trip. Good luck with that.”

“Just my personal suggestion...

Maybe wait til ya get home from work.”

“Boys at that age are just libidos with legs.
last edited: 10/11/05 9:39:14 AM”

“My experience is that boys between 14-18 are goofy to start with and the introduction of girls into the picture only amplifies the situation.

The requirement to have woman on the hike would pretty much nix any girls in my venture crew. I am already suffering to find another man to go yet alone a woman.”

“Got any hiking buddies nearby?
Ask them to go with you.”

“I was involved as an advisor in a summer program for kids 14-17 (Freshmen - Juniors in High School).

One of the sessions for the students was one on personal growth and life issues. However, the person who was facilitating the session decided to pass out a survey on "sexuality" (i.e. if the kids were virgins, how many sex partners, etc.) She did so without consulting the program director, who was appalled.... Our program was about preparing students for college and exposing them to the world of teaching... not teaching them about sex education-- when some may not have even thought about the issue or talked about it at home with their parents.

Needless to say, the program director was less than pleased. At this particualr summer program, the discussion of sex or sex education was not appropriate. (Especially, when we made great pains in telling students that the girls and boys could not ride down an elevator with anyone of the opposite sex (whether a college student or another high school student.) The were only allowed to ride down in a mixed sex elevator when an adult counselor or program director was present. We wanted the students to focus on school and college and career, not on the dating scene....I believe the program director reprimanded the facilitator for distributing the sex survey.

It seems to me that if your troop has questions, you will be better off talking to the parents of the group and to come up with a solution (i.e. whether or not to discuss the issue of sexuality as a group, and WITH parental involvement). In other words, I wouldn't take it upon yourself to initiate such conversations with the students yourself... Some parents have issues about the discussing of sex education with their students--to the point that even today's world, I'm sure that there are still parents who sign slips excusing their children from the "sex ed / health class" at school.

In terms of the issues of morals and values-- that is an even touchier subject--I would think that parents may balk at others teaching their kids about values unless they (the parents) were involved in the matter....
last edited: 10/11/05 9:56:27 AM”

“LOL
Scouting is all about values.”

“discuss the issue of sexuality as a group

As previously stated Sex Ed is not allowed in the BSA. PERIOD. Do it as a unit and get your charter pulled.

-I would think that parents may balk at others teaching their kids about values

The BSA is a values base organization. That's one of the reasons why people trust their kids to us. If they don't like it then I suggest they enroll their kids in a different youth organization.
last edited: 10/11/05 10:05:37 AM”

““Got any hiking buddies nearby?
Ask them to go with you.”
humanpackmule

I do NOT. That's why I started to hang out with you people. I sure wish I did. Even the Scout people aren't into it which was a huge shock to me. I was looking forward to volunteering with the Scouts. I am going back to being bummed about this whole thing now.”

“HPM....

Okay, I guess I should have re-phrased what I said...When talking about discussing values, I was referring in regards to sexuality, not overall values in regards to society and life....

I understand that the BSA teaches their kids about values.... My bad... :-)

Sorry, I must have missed your previous post about Sex Ed being prohibited...

So, would it be more appropriate to pull the child's parent aside and say something to them about what the child said?”

“The BSA is a values base organization. That's one of the reasons why people trust their kids to us. If they don't like it then I suggest they enroll their kids in a different youth organization.
last edited: 10/11/05 10:05:37 AM”
humanpackmule
10:04:18 AM

Now HPM, you know that isn't the correct answer. The correct answer is for the parent to run to the ACLU and file suit against the BSA.”

“Gotcha Pink.

Yep, like any other major issue you have to get buy-in from the parents so you aren't working at odds. Teh idea is to support the parents.

That happens from time to time SS.”

“LOL--
HPM-- have you heard of Alpha Phi Omega?

It's a service fraternity and the college-level branch of the Boy Scouts... Thinkbubelz & I were both in it when we were in college.

Funny thing-- our chapter (at the time) was 75% women and 25% men.... Most of the men were Eagle Scouts in High school.

Must have thrown out the "values" part of the group on the college level... we were known to have jello wrestling matches, as well as plenty of debauchery and good old college fun... And the running joke was "incest is best"-- many of the brothers dated and/or married each other.

(In our chapter, we opted for equality among all members, so we didn't have "sisters" only "brothers". :-) )
last edited: 10/11/05 10:26:57 AM”

“Boys at that age are just libidos with legs.
last edited: 10/11/05 9:39:14 AM”
humanpackmule


Some of them are older than that. ;)”

“Yep, I've heard of it. There wasn't a chapter near me. Plus I wasn't too interested in frats when I was in college.

Values and College are hard things to reconcile for most folks. lol.”

“I am in the same boat. I moved my son out of a Troop a few months ago due to an abusive scout leader. The troop we are in now is a good troop they just don't want to do anything that involves work. Our Scoutmaster hates hiking and backpacking. He said if you can't get to it on wheels there is no need to see it. He just bought new tents for the boys and the are monster tents. They have 4 rooms to them and the kids will have to have a step ladder to set them up let alone carry them. There are a few boys that want to hike so I told them I would do the hiking merit badge with them. When the Scoutmaster found out about it he was not happy with me. I think he is afraid they will like it and want to do more. Our 1st hike is this weekend so we will see how it works. I had to borrow some adults from the other troop that I trust to help me. I hope they love it and make him buy them all new backpacking tents.”

“That guy is a really bad example for kids to look to.”

“bad scoutmaster - if it starts to present a real issue, you could talk to the chartered org rep.”

“Dude doesn't understand that it isn't his Troop. It belongs to the boys. So fine, if the boys want to do more and you are willing ( I asume you are) then you cna run the active trips and he can run the sit on your a$$ and get fat(er) trips.

Unfortunatly there is no shortage of crap "leaders" in Scouts. They just keep showing up.

Good luck with that and shout if you need a hand/advice.”

“Hell, we TT Scouters ought to get together a support network to help each other out. Especially those who need a hand with something like high adventure.

We travel to camp and hike with each other already, we might as well spend a trip to help another TTer get some kids in the woods.”

“Outa, just to be sure you know, in order to be a merit badge counselor, you have to go through some training and register with the BSA. Your district or counsel office should be able to help you with that, if the Scoutmaster won't.”

“Good idear, Oh HPM!

I know I've got questions on stuff I need to do to get my Cub Scouter knot...”

““Hell, we TT Scouters ought to get together a support network to help each other out. Especially those who need a hand with something like high adventure.

I think this is a great idea.”

“Outamatches: Good luck and let me know how it goes. I am going to run this Venture Crew like they are asking me to do... but I am not going to give up on the younger scouts (which includes my son). Someone here (humanpackmule?) said not to give up on them because they deserve it. I respect the scoutmaster and I know he is playing his role and is a good man. I have a role to play as well as an assistant scoutmaster and father to one of the scouts.”

“I talked to a fella about "no love without a glove" with his Mom's blessing. Dad lives in a different state.”

“I took all the required training if you call it that, and went to the council office and took their requirement test which basicaly was to tell them what I know about the subjects I want to be counselor for. The only traing I have not done is Wood Badge and they won't do that for another 2 years.”

““I talked to a fella about "no love without a glove" with his Mom's blessing. Dad lives in a different state.”
Limpy

This coming from a guy who calls himself "Limpy"...”

“Woodbadge is for leaders who are serious about it. I'm not even considering Woodbadge at this point. I am going to be helping one of our other leaders with his Woodbadge project though.”

“I am the merit badge consuler for the Nuclear Science merit badge. Nobody asked me any questions. I guess they never had anyone offer to do it before. I guess they now want me to sign up for Backpacking despite the large number of people already signed up for it... something about there already being a large number of people but none in our area.”

“There is also Scouter.com to use as a support network. There are some great folks on the forum there but the atmosphere gets really stuffy and uptight.”

“They got really picky about it. They had a few over achiever parents that became merit badge mills for their kids so they decided to make sure we are quailified to do it first.
"Nuclear Science" What did they do then just turn out the lights to see if you glowed. lol.”

“1. Do you know what a nucleus is?

2. Good, you're in.”

“If anybody needs some training info, let me know, I'm on our districts' Training team and can get just about any information you need.

In the past I've help start Cub packs, our Troop and a Venture Crew.


As an aside, I've got a first edition (20 something printing) Handbook for Boys, it has a section on "morality" and waiting until marriage.”