TT Scouter support network

“We DO have trip leaders. It's a great way for boys to get a "little" experience at leading a larger group before they move on to higher positions, and it takes another job off of us adults. The SPL's don't go on every single trip.”

“LOL..HPM, we had a Mom who wanted to be a leader. The First campout she went on was a fall campout so it was still shorts weather. She did well all day until we got to dinner. We had slowcooked some stew. After we finished we were burning out the Oven it was GLOWING hot. She says, "I will take care of it." Then she grabbed it and almost put it under the faucet....YEEEEE>

Nah the great thing about the Leader job is watching the mature...and take on responsibility.”

“lol nice.
The adults are far worse than the kids could ever be.

Nah the great thing about the Leader job is watching the mature...and take on responsibility.
Heck yeah, nothing better.
Well, the grub ain't half bad either.”

“LOL>...one word..Hot Sauce”

“In small towns those tips and advice turn into baskets of garden tomatoes and bushels of beans, corn, canteloupe, and other goodies. I can remember growing up that it would be fairly often we'd get in the car after church and there would be a bushel of something that someone had left on the car seat.”

“LOL>..the give away vegetable...zuchinni (LOL)”

“That's hyways veggie of choice.”

“mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Zuchini! If ya'll have any you need to get rid of, let me know and I'll get you my address lickity split! I love to grate it and fry it up in olive oil with garlic, sooooo delicious! It's also great in soups and oven roasted with other veggies.”

“I like zuchinni.”

“Ok, we had our first backpack, and a 15 year old was our Senior Patrol Leader, and he did a great job. He is almost an Eagle scout, having only some merit badges to complete. This was his first backpack. Something is wrong with that. We had 8 scouts, ages 15,12,12,12,11,11,11,11, and 6 adults. Hiked in two miles, to a wilderness hot springs (thank you Idaho!). We had a little rain, did some matchless firestarting practice, orienteering course, LNT camping, and everyone had a good time. For the first backpack for most of these kids and some of the adults, I'm calling that a success.”

“great job idaho bob!”

“very much a success.”

“Sounds like a great trip. I've started a Venture crew here in NC. One 16 yo is almost an eagle and NEVER backpacked. My jaw about hit the floor. My brother tells me scouts have really gotten soft on camping. Your trip was what scouts is about LNT, orienteering, map reading, knots, how to cook and clean.”

“

The boys got some time in the hot spring before dark.



Here are the boys getting ready to hike out.”

“Looks like everyone had a good time! I think it's important that we get our kids out to experience nature.”

“my guys are out camping this weekend. i couldn't join them because my wife is out of town and i have to watch over my sons brother and sister (who did NOT want to camp with the scouts).

anyway, i went there... with the brother and sister... for dinner. i finished off our little project from last week. we made alcohol stoves and we cooked our dinner. 9 scouts, 5 stoves... no burnt clothes, fingers, etc. they just ate mountain house beef stew.

i was impressed. some of the guys even packed their own fuel after my lecture on how you ONLY burn denatured alcohol (NOT GAS OR ANYTHING ELSE). i put a tight fence around the whole fuel thing. anyway, a few had gone with their parents and found a fuel bottle and packed in 3-4 oz of fuel for the weekend. cool.

last week we did the "build a stove" project, which i have done twice before. i have them make a very simple pressurized sidde-burner stove. it has a little fill-hole at the top that i have them cover with a nickle, then prime the stove on a piece of tin foil. no pot stand... the pot sits right on top of the stove. it works very well and is simple to build. the last time i did this project was with 6 scouts and in 1 hour all 6 got stoves. this time 3 out of 5 got stoves and one of those three was big-time substandard. we shared what we had and i brought a few from home. a few of the guys had tried to re-do the project at home with marginal success.

i set up a demonstration of the various types of backpacking stoves. that went over well. anything involving fire is generally a hit.

then i hung out with my fellow adults and watched the guys try to get a fire going... deplorable... lots of smoke however. they FINALLY got a blaze going but then spent so much time playing with it that it went out. it was a warm night and it was more for entertainment than anything. still, here are 5 guys (out of 9) working on their camping merit badge and they still can't start a fire...

see, here is my theory: they aren't trying to start a fire... they are trying to burn things. it's a different end-state objective. from their point of view they did a good job. haha!

lots of skeeters. the guys were complaining that they were itchy. my son wanted a new shirt (didn't have one) so when i left i literally gave him the shirt on my back and wore his shirt home. soon i was itching... i don't know what they got into but it seemd to latch onto their clothes and not their skin. anyone that went messing about in the woods suffered from this.

oh well, sounds like they had fun. they thought i was staying the night and a few came up and asked if i was leaving when they saw me pull out my car keys. sad.”

“btw, over the years i have noticed something about young men that i observed in full force at the came during our project. they are very awkward and unsure at times, constantly fumbling about asking, "is this ok?" and screwing up. i learned a long time ago that the trick is to let them make the mistakes... the worst they can do is waste a pop can, spill some alcohol, etc (with proper supervision). if you are patient and don't constantly correct them... you know what i mean, "no, no... here, let me show you"... they settle down. their speech becomes more confident and they seem to even become more coordinated. most of these guys in the troop seem to be pretty comfortable around me now but a few still seem unsure of themselves when we work together and it takes a few minutes to get past this point.

i think the whole hyper-intellectual "health and safety culture" has been really detrimental to the well being of our young men. it puts fences around their behavior and interaction with the world and prevents them from taking on the risk of making mistakes. what i have found is that if you contantly work to prevent young men from making even the smallest mistake that they will somehow go out and find ways to test themselves WITHOUT you and that when they do so they will do this by taking GREATER risks. so in a sense the whole "health and safety" culture thing is really counter-productive in my opinion... sure it's good to be safe and informed, but a plant raised outside the sunshine will be stunted and malformed. i think young men need these experiences (risk taking) to properly develop.

don't ask me what got me on this rant. i just felt like typing that in.
last edited: 6/03/07 8:28:51 AM”

“I couldn't agree more.”

“i second that motion jimmy san”

“Right there with you.”

“what signs would confirm that a troop is doing these things right?

boy-led troop

not just advanced cub scouts

we are an active troop

not just an eagle making machine”

“You should come visit us next year bob”

“it's not either/or ... it's both. a troop is like a pendulum (the classic analogy from my training) where at one end of the swing is "leader led" and at the other is "boy led" with every combination being possible in between. any troop will swing back and forth over time based on the makeup of it's members, leaders, and parents. i don't think any position of the pendulum is wrong. if you try to go "boy led" in a troop with a group of parents and scouts that don't get it or even car you are going to have just as dysfunctional a program as if it were all leader run... perhaps more so.

i do think leaders need to ask themselves whether they are really prepared to be "boy led". so many leaders seem to have different opinions of what this means. they have a vision in their head of what boy scouts means to them ("scouts do this and scouts do that and they don't do car camping and they don't...") that they forget that they are basically making decisions for the boys that the boys themselves should be making. true, the program should have structure but if you look CLOSELY at the advancement schedule you will see that the requirements to advance are linked to the activities... the things "scouts do" such that the boys are eased into all of these activities that differentiate them from "advanced cub scouts".
last edited: 6/07/07 9:39:47 PM”

“I always start with "Are the boys having fun?"

Advancement is good, seeking to improve in their trips and trying out new stuff. Remember this is not so much a "SCOUTING" thing as it is getting them to learn to take responsibility and experience failure and success.

Bob in my years of Scouting I have met some great leaders who never made it (as youth) past First Class) those sometime tend to value making Eagle even more.”

“My son is out of scouts now. I've got lots of Boy Scout pants, shorts, belts and socks all in varoius sizes that I would be happy to donate to a troop who might have boys who could use the clothes. (I want to keep the shirts with all the patches cuz...well moms just like to keep that kind of thing.) Anyway, I know the stuff is expensive to buy new and I really want another scout have these things. Just send me an e-mail and let me know if you are interested.”

“My son left scouting 5 years ago..I stayed into help other boys.”

“What I was hoping to get were some objective items, such as:

boy-led troop

1 older boys train younger boys
2 older boys sign off on requirements for younger boys
3 calendar is set by boys


we are an active troop

1 an overnight outing each month
2 X number of backpacks in the year, or season
3 default trip is a backpack

Any comments that one could use to evaluate the relative position of a troop on that continuum? I have my suspicions of where my troop stands, but maybe I don't know where other troops fall, or I'm too maniacal about backpacking.”

“The first three are good indicators for a boy-led program.

How much a troop backpacks is simply representative of how much a troop backpacks and has nothing to do with how active you are. Lots of troops are super busy and never backpack. Some troops are all about canoeing, some are backpacking, some are car camping and others (ours) a mix of activities. Nationwide I would wager that most troops either do not backpack or if they do it is maybe once a year.

The quality unit award is how the BSA defines a troop as "Active" and they define that as such:
Outdoor Activities. The troop will conduct six highlight activities (such as hikes, campouts, trips, tours, etc.) and attend a Boy Scouts of America long-term camp.

Pretty weak if you ask me. We considered quality unit a lowest common denominator "gimmie" award.

PDF link to the requirements for 2006
http://www.scouting.org/forms/14-221-06.pdf”

“the boys should decide if they want to do backpacking or not and how often. i know this is a bad place to say this because of now strongly WE feel about this activity, but i have found that as adult leaders we often claim we want the troop to be "boy led" and then push the things we think they should be doing by marketing options we want to them.

classic example from my dysfunctional world. i wanted to offer my services to the troop to lead a backpacking trip (this was before i was varsity coach). so i asked the leader if he would tell the boys that i was willing to be a resource to them for this type of activity. i was told this would be ok and at the next meeting they were laying out the activities for the next year. they asked the boys, "do you want to go on an outing to a super-fun and scary haunted hike and have a haunted camp out or go on this super-tough you-have-never-done-this-before backpacking trip". i was dead on arrival. needless to say i pulled aside the leaders and told them that of course they declined my offer because they marketed what they wanted to do. the boys are totally susceptible to this sort of marketing (witness ads on tv).

ok... cut to a year later. many new boys all working on their camping merit badge. they elect on a weekend camping trip to "backpack 4 miles" as one of the badges requirements (they also select a conservation project and cycling 15 miles). this is all GREAT. i am asked to come in and make pepsi can stoves and help them cook a meal on them. WHAT FUN! so at the campout they hiked in, full pack, and then we worked as a team to use our stoves... four going at a time... they did it and i (nerve wracked) supervised. they did GREAT and i was very impressed. later, after they hiked out, they all said they wanted to do another backpack trip -and- one of the adult leaders approached me later and told me that the stoves/cooking made the trip for them and was the main reason they wanted to do a backpacking trip again... the fun of that part of the adventure way overcame the things they disliked about backpacking.

haha! so my posts on this thread are a matter of history and you will know i am constantly about to give out... then something like this happens and i reinvest myself in the program.

anyway, i just felt like sharing this and i think as long as they boys are having fun it's mostly all good. i mean my kids have fun when we have a babysitter over as well... that doesn't mean they are getting anything but entertainment out of the experience... but still it's really core to making the program work and i saw this in action this last month.
last edited: 6/09/07 10:12:11 AM”

“The leader of the scheduled troop trip for June has changed the trip from a car camp to a 2.5 mile backpack. I guess since all the 11 year olds went on a backpack, they didn't have any excuse to not do a backpack. Cool. All I have to do is assist on this one, not lead it. Maybe the conversion to backpacking is as simple as that; go on a backpack well attended by the younger scouts, and see if the leaders of future trips want to backpack.”

“As a relatively new Scoutmaster, I've tried to make it a point to have an outdoor activity at least once a month. On one of the most recent trips, I took a former Scoutmaster as my second adult. We ended up going to a county park (we're talking a mountain preserve in the desert, just so you don't get any ideas here). I was talking with this other Scoutmaster, who I hear the boys really liked when he was around, about what makes a great outdoor program. He kinda put a sideways jab in at me when he said something about how the campouts need to be in cool places, not at a park (although he later admitted that this park was pretty cool). I was asking him about some of the places he took the boys and it turns out, they didn't do much camping when he was the SM. He was so focused on planning cool campouts that he forgot the most important part...just get out there!

I try to turn the reigns over to my boys to plan most of the time. I have a super small troop (about 3 active boys) who are all 12 and 13. I usually like to give them some guidance on locations (ie "We need to do a 5-mile 2nd class hike and this place has some great trails" or "We need to be back by xx time on Saturday, so we should probably not drive 3-4 hours to get to the campsite"). The problem I have is not that the boys don't plan their campouts. They just don't show up when they do. I have decided though that, as long as I have 2-deep leadership (which is tough to do sometimes), we will be having a campout. Even if its just me and another adult!”

“WHOA>..DAVE...two deep is the minimum...I prefer 3 or 4 deep...in case something happens.”

“Wish me luck, I leave Sunday for a week at summer camp.”

“Have fun Chuck! I do this every year and it's great!!! In fact I celebrate my birthday there every year. The whole camp sings happy birthday to me. Last year my daughter was working there, so the kitchen made me a cake, enough for the whole troop. And then she told the entire camp that I like birds, so all day long boys came up and gave me feathers that they found. My hat was full and I had leftovers! The boys were really tickled that I could tell them exactly what bird they came from.”

“summer camp is the bomb! heck - its a great retention tool - the kids get psyched, they earn merit badges and do stuff that otherwise they might not ever get a chance to!”

“in some cases, especially the younger scouts, i think our guys earn more merit badges at summer camp than they do the rest of the year. it's a real rewarding experience and just once i wish i could actaully attend... i usually drive there with them, stay the first day and visit once during the week.”

““WHOA>..DAVE...two deep is the minimum...I prefer 3 or 4 deep...in case something happens.”

That would be nice. But often 2-deep is hard enough to come by. Of my 3 boys, 2 don't have fathers in the picture. One's dad is the ASM over the new Scout patrol. He comes with me sometimes, but often is out with his patrol. I utilize the people I have around me: former Scoutmasters, Committee members (not many of those, either), etc.”

“LOL...been there.”

“a handfull of good committee members is worth just as much as ASM's - in some cases more.”

“I don't care what position the adults hold (or don't hold) as long as they help out.”

“just make sure they are trained, at the very least they should have YPG.”

“WOODBADGE, WOODBADGE...WOODBADGE

THe Sad thing is that this weekend I will be teaching New Leader's Essentials and Cub Leader Training.....with another leader both of us have kids who have LONG left scouting. New leaders need to get into the training line also.”

“Very true Pam. Good point.
YPG is an absolute necessity.
last edited: 6/15/07 12:44:37 PM”

“i constantly struggle to get 2-deep leadership for the varsity stuff. i have had to whack a lot of plans because nobody wants to go and tow the line. it's sad that i have to beg people for this.”

“I'll finally be doing WoodBadge this summer - should be a good time. Our council does a week at Camp Buffalo Bill - just outside the East gate to Yellowstone on the North Fork of the Shoshone River.”

“garfum...let me know what patrol...if I can offer advice drop me an e-mail.”

“Been there Jimmy, I feel for ya.

It sucks when I felt like I was the one letting the guys down when I had to tell the kids an activity is off. The reality is that I'm not the problem, but it sure felt like it.”

“HPM, you don't tell the kids, you tell the parents and let them tell the kids. The parents need to own up that they are the ones not providing.

Also, tell the parents that the more of them that get the training, the fewer times they will be called upon. When you get the year plan, you tell the parents, "pick out your activity (or two) now".”

“I went through all that Pam.
For the sake of bandwidth I'll spare you the saga. lol

I had a core group that I could always count on. It's just that the core group needed to stop taking up the slack every single time there was an issue, the decent folks who were legitimately busy needed to share the load a little better and the do-nothings needed to be purged from the troop.

Truth be told I think we did pretty darn well by the boys, but wanting more help is a universal complaint.”

“Tell me about getting help, Ive been with my troop for 16 years, did 3 years as SM about 10 years ago, had settled in nicely as COR, when the last Scoutmaster decided to leave no one would step up and take his place. It was up to me to do the job or let the Troop fold. I'm doing my best to groom a couple of new dads for the job.”