TT Scouter support network

“Our weekend backpack turned out great. I didn't lead it, so could just help out. We had 21 people, including 1 14 y.o. girl (daughter of the trip leader), 8 adults, the rest scouts, including a lot of 11 year olds. We hiked 2.5 miles across a treeless rocky plateau, then dropped down to a canyon where an 80 foot water fall dropped off the plateau into a gorge. The area is arid, at about 6000 feet and dotted with junipers below the windswept plateau top.

Also went on a day hike through slot canyon country with the canyon walls narrow enough to touch on either side, and requiring some scrambling up blocked areas. We found an aspen grove with huge trees, and hiked through another slot canyon to return to camp.

Back at the waterfall gorge, we swam in the pool of water below the dry waterfall.

I'll show slides at the meeting tonight, and talk about what we learned by seeing what other people did or equipment they had that worked out well.

I cooked corn bread in a cook set using coals, and it turned out great! Everyone got a piece.”

“Well my Troop is at summer camp and it is pretty cool. Apparently the new leaders are starting to form the "core" we need to support the troop and the youth (in the absence of the old Guard of kids) is learning to take leadership and do quite well.”

“For those troops who go on backpacks with 11 year old scouts, what do you do for tents? Our troop has Big Agnes 2 man tents, and they are standard type nylon tents, but they weight 6 pounds or so. If one boy takes the poles, one is stuck with the tent and fly. besides being heavy, it fills up the pack. Do some troops do something different, like use tarps instead of tents?”

“We made tyvek tarps.
The most popular one sleeps 8.”

“Not familiar with your Big Agnes tents, we used to use Eureka Apex XT tents, also 2-man tents. We could split them similarly so one boy carried poles & ground sheet, the other fly & body, each was then carrying a little under 4 lbs. As the boys matured & became more experienced, we'd carry tarps, but that was for protection if we got stuck in afternoon thunderstorms (we hiked mainly in the Sierra - afternoons you can almost count on running into storms from time to time!) Tarps were covers only for those conditions.. the boys in my troop almost all ended up being very serious / committed backpackers, sp most ended up buyiong either a Bivy or one of those Eureka one-man tents that weigh very little.”

“one carrying poles while the other carries tent AND FLY? that doesn't sound fair. usually one boy carries tent and the other boy carries poles and fly. and we do not use tents that big for backpacking. little 1 1/2 to 2 man tents at the most. the Eureka Spitfires are great.”

“Poles and ground sheet... the poles for the APEX XT are kinda' heavy, while the fly is pretty light... we weighed all of the pieces separately so that each boy was carrying close to the same amount of weight.”

“*sigh* Our son leaves on Fri for the summer. He will be a CIT at Ten Mile River camp up in the Catskills. He has never been gone for that long. Only once for a week and that was hard for me. But now he is going for the entire summer. I do plan on going up for a week in july to spy on him :)”

“ErinAnne is working at summercamp right now, she was home for her 24 hour break so I got to see her yesterday for a bit. This is her second year doing it. They just promoted her from asst director to director; her take home is now 300 a week plus room and board. Not bad for 19 years old. I want to be her.”

“Mapes what is a CIT?”

“Counselor In Training”

“yes Pam that is what it is. so now the count downs begins :(

all I want to do is spend ever day with him and all he wants is to play PC games. darn tenns!!!”

“LOL...video games...ELECTRONIC CRACK.”

“I got back Sat. from my week at summer camp, had a great time, the boys were good, the weather OK and the bugs were at a minimum.”

“So how did you scouters summer camps go? I didn't go on ours but my 11 year old son did, and generally had a good time, but describes some activities that make me wonder.

About a month ago I gave a little slide show to our troop about backpacking gear, the 10-15 essentials, and gear not to take. At camp, the whole group got in 19 canoes and headed across a big lake for an excursion from the main camp. At camp on the lake shore, they went on a hike, and while on the hike it started raining. They got back to camp in heavy rain, and the adults tried to start a fire. They found that their matches didn't work and couldn't get a fire going.

They hadn't brought their tents from the main camp, relying on weather predictions of no rain. Only one patrol leader had brought a tarp for his patrol to sleep under, and that tarp was hijacked by the group of 4 or 5 Life scouts. My son and several others lucked out and slept under a lean to covered by a plastic tarp. The boys whose tarp was hijacked slept under the canoes. They brought sandwiches for dinner, and had no breakfast, but headed back the mile or so to the main camp for breakfast.

Then on the last day my son fell and broke his elbow, which was apparently no one's fault, just an accident.

A more positive update is that we have gone on three overnight backpacks, with two more planned in August. At the start of the year there were no backpacks on the calendar,so I'm making a little headway in getting them doing more than car camping.
last edited: 7/29/07 12:11:49 AM”

“what camp was this for starters? sounds like their version of our (Mataguay's) rugged O. we do ours without tents as well. but they are close enough in to come into shelter if they choose to. those adults are pretty sad. those Life Scouts can be reported, they were "stealing". sorry about your boy's elbow; we had two boys fracture things while we had our week at camp, not of our troop. both boys touched "Treanor's Grave" during the hike, which they were warned not to do, it has a curse on it.

BrianSean turns 14 tomorrow and is leaving to C.I.T. at Mataguay for two weeks. I am excited for him, it's exactly what he needs. He'll be working at the Fort doing the Mountain Man with my favorite cowboy, Andy. The next two weeks are Cub weeks, perfect for him. He also needs the break from us I'm sure.”

“sounds like a little bit of bad planning and a little bit of bullying - Life Scouts should know better and should have earned some sort of reprimand.

Too bad about the elbow.”

“Bob...I am guessing my question is...WHERE were the adult leaders?

I always carry a spare ultralight tarp or even some 2 ply ply just in case. Its called "Be Prepared"


Now a few years ago out troop was on a river canoe trip. Poorly planned by the Council and the water level in the river was Low. The second day they ended up 4 hours from the next supply position in a driving rain and had to do the survival thing with the canoes and a (here it comes) tarp one scout had brought.


At a minimum they should have had ponchos and fire and steel (knife)....I would ask the Scoutmaster to bring it up at the next roundtable.

Though I tend to remember the HELL campouts better than any other.”

“Uncool”

“I've been to summer camps at 4 different councils - conditions can vary widely.

It sounds like they went on an "outpost" trip, usually a hike to an overnight destination, where they tend to sleep under the stars (leave the tents in camp). These trips help meet some merit badge or advancement requirements that the boys are working on during camp. At the camps that are managed well, with adequate and properly trained staff, these go smoothly.

At the poorly run camps, with poorly trained staff, the scout units have to furnish adults to augment the staff and provide leadership. We had a similar incident with an "outpost" hike, where only the boys from our unit had tarps and the skills/supplies to start a fire when the weather turned cold and wet.”

“On this canoe trip, which was only a mile from the mail camp, no camp counselors went, but we had a lot of adults in our group. They went two people per canoe, and thus had plenty of room for tents. Kids who were going to bring tents were talked out of it.

It rained hard for 2 hours, and they basically gave up starting a fire.

I think part of the problem is that scouts are young men, and the adult leaders are men. I have learned from teaching college backpacking classes that women learn through listening and men just don't. Men already know everything, so they don't believe you unless they have a "teachable moment", which these near disasters are. Plus, after having a near death experience they somehow think that the 15 essentials, the survival mindset, the "be prepared" thing, etc, is THEIR idea, and then they can adopt it. Its the rare man who can learn stuff by being told stuff. They have to almost die, or at least be very uncomfortable, before they get it.”

“bob...usually if we think they are going to take our scouts to a location where there is a similar situation....one of the leaders from our unit will go along.

The No adults....do you mean no trained adult leaders went? That is a MAJOR violation of Scout Policy.”

“Bob, you can sure use this as an example of why the 10-15 essentials are so important.”

“No camp staff went with our group, but many adults of our group went, with most of them "trained." The camp was in Wyoming, and I don't think camp staff was at fault, because it sounds like the excursion was supervised by trained leaders from our troop. Here is how I put it to our troop leaders:

Guys:

It sounds like you guys had a "teachable moment" on the canoe trip, which we should not let slip by. I have learned from teaching college backpacking classes that women learn through listening and men just don't. Our scouts are young men, and as men, they already know everything, so they don't believe you unless they have a "teachable moment", which a near disaster tends to be. After having a very uncomfortable experience, or better yet a near death experience, they somehow think that the 15 essentials, the survival mindset, the "be prepared" thing, etc, is THEIR idea, and then they can adopt it. Its the rare man who can learn stuff by being told stuff. They can learn by reading, because then it feels like its their idea. But they learn a lot better if they almost die, or at least are very uncomfortable.

I started backpacking in the Sierra Nevada range of California, where the weather is very mild and rains are short and rare. We hiked the length of the Muir Trail, 227 miles in 28 days, while climbing 17 peaks, wearing jeans and t shirts. We could get away with it, so we ran the risk. When I move to Washington I headed straight to Rainier, my third day in the state, and climbed it solo, again in cotton clothes. We had good weather and I was strong as a horse, and maintained my vision of invincability. The next year I invited my Yosemite rock climbing buddy to join me on Rainier again, because it was a hoot. We did Rainier like we did Sierra peaks, but this time the weather was bad. I had jeans, a sweatshirt, a nylon poncho, a ski hat, ski gloves, and we were sure our endurance and internal heat generation would get us through. We got to about 200 feet short of the summit, when the winds were just too fierce to go any further. On the way down I felt a tug on my rope, and saw my partner flying over my head, and he landed in front of me, picked up by the wind and carried 50 feet. By then my jeans were frozen into solid tubes of ice, bendable only at the knee, and rubbing against the skin of my legs. First the hair on my legs was pulled out at each step, then the ice was 80 grit sandpaper against the skin.

Back at Camp Muir at 10,000 feet, it was a total whiteout. You could not see more than 5 feet, and you could not open your eyes if you didn’t have goggles, because of the blowing ice pieces. Of course we didn’t have goggles. We and about 20 other climbers needed to get down, and there was a good chance half of us would get lost and die in the storm. We took a rope and tied the one guy who had goggles into one end, calculated a compass bearing, and told him to walk the compass bearing dragging the rope and not to take his eyes off the compass. The rest of us grabbed the rope and followed with our eyes closed, and hiked with our eyes closed for 4 hours. No one got lost, but if you lost your grip on the rope, you would be dead.

So that was my teachable moment at age 23, and then I thought since I was in the Pacific NW, and not as invinceable as I used to be, maybe I should get serious about not wearing cotton, and being prepared. Later being involved in Mountain Rescue and Nordic Ski Patrol enhanced my disdain of cotton and not being prepared to spend the night out on any day hike. Mountain Rescue included several missions to rescue scout troops, and to look for lost hikers and scouts.

I hope you guys plan on using the scouts' experience to drive in some good habits:

rain protection
fire starting skills are a survival skill
take multiple equipment to start a fire
matches don’t always work
even waterproof matches alone won’t start a fire without other skills
skills to start a fire in wet conditions
use of accelerants on tinder (chapstick, aeosol sprays, vaseline)
use of a candle to start a fire
where to find dry wood in rainy weather

plus some leadership skills (I thought that was what the boys were learning in Scouts) like the older boys teaching the younger boys, and taking responsibility for their safety before their own.


Just some thoughts.

Bob”

“Good letter Bob.
Sounds like everyone involved had a teachable moment.”

“Which Wyoming camp?”

“This is from the NEWFORK Scout Camp Leaders Guide - sounds like the trip.

"Units with TRAINED adult supervision may schedule a canoe trip to the upper lake for an overnight outpost camp. All canoers must
be swimmers. Scouts not eligible to take the canoes may hike to the camping area. This is a very popular program item.
Plan to leave Camp New Fork after 4:00 p.m. You will arrive at the upper lake outpost campsite about 6:00 p.m. Please return the
following morning no later than 8:00 a.m. Take your overnight gear and a trail meal with you in the canoes. Breakfast will be as
usual in your own campsite when you return. Plan 3 persons per canoe. Check with the commissioner staff for more details.
Due to USFS policies and to help train scouts inWilderness Ethics and Leave No Trace programs, no campfires may be built in the Upper Lake area. The trail meal we provide is a no-cook meal. Garbage and all other bear attractants will be picked up by
motorboat and returned to the base camp by sunset each evening. All camping must be at least 200 feet away (northwesterly) from
the wilderness trail which passes along the northwest side of the Upper Lake if that side of the canyon is selected or 200 feet away from the southeasterly side of the Lake or New Fork River if that side is selected for camping. Those not wanting an overnight are still welcome to take a non-camping trek late afternoon/evening or early morning or both."

I've never been to this camp - but I've backpacked from that trailhead. That lake is COLD!

Good atitude to have Bob. I hope you stick to scouting long enough to spread the wealth.”

“Well its not like I haven't had more than one "teachable moment" myself. I've had so many learning experiences I'm darn lucky to be alive.”

“lol
yep, me too.”

“I keep hearing that going to scout camp is the way to get a lot of merit badges done efficiently. It strikes me as advanced cub scouts, and as being a merit badge factory. I suspect every troop says "we are not advanced cub scouts, and we are not a merit badge factory."

It seems to me that a 9 day backpack to an exciting place like the Wind Rivers, Sawtooths, or Sierra would be more fun, and less "dumbed down" than summer scout camp, for boys who have already been to camp at least once, or who are older.

I wonder if it would be possible to offer a 9 day backpack as an alternative to scout camp, and on the backpack plan on teaching 4 or 5 merit badges, like the boys get at scout camp. The badges could be in fishing, hiking, part of the backpacking one, also naturalist, mammals, foresty, survival, etc.

Is a backpack like that ever done while teaching merit badge material? Why not do that as an alternative to camp for older boys?”

“It's a great idea.

Summer camp has it's place, some offer good first year camper programs, and there are some merit badges that are difficult to get other places, like the shooting sports. A good high adventure program at a summer camp can expose them to more than just backpacking - my son has done white water rafting, climbing, and spelunking(sp?) at summer camp.

On the other hand, a lot of summer camp merit badges are not done as completly as they should be, and the "gravey" badges, like leatherwork tend to be on the summer camp menu.

We've never done much formal instruction on a BP trip.

If you have adults that are willing to work at all the required merit badges and teach the skills, what you want to do will work great.”

“The term most often used around here for the camps that seem to exist only for giving away merit badges is "Merit Badge Mill"!

We used to determine which summer camp we were selecting based upon their reputation. Some camps are known in your district as "Merit Badge Mills" while others are acknowledged as opportunities for learning different skills / gaining experiences.

What I always found a little interesting was that when I became the District Camping Chairperson, we'd sit in meetings discussing all the pertient issues troops faced when deciding on selecting a summer camp, and the leaders at the "Merit Badge Mill" camps didn't really mind that they had such a bad reputation! To them, "that's what they did" :(”

“Sounds like something a drug dealer would say.”

“Younger Boy Scouts are not ready for a nine day backpack, they are not even ready for nine days of resident camp. Resident camp is strictly for fun and getting boys used to being away from home for extended periods of time; didn't you know that? It's just useful that they teach them merit badges there.

Talk to your older boys and and find out what makes them choose summer camps year after year. Sometimes it's just getting out of the house and away from mom. Sometimes they choose a camp for the counselors they know will be there. Sometimes they like a particular program. And sometimes they do like getting a large number of merit badges.

It's a boy led program. Do you want to keep your boys?”

“I gotta agree with Pammie.

The greatest challenge facing kids in the outdoors is that it is almost an ALIEN enviornment. NO A/C, no TV it is totally different than ANYTHING they are used to.

So I think part of summer camp is just reacclimating them to the outdoors.”

“I don't think he's advocating dumping Summer camp for the little guys. He's talking about adding a week long summer camp alternative for the older guys.

Yes it can be done and I've tried to make it happen once before but the guys were much more interested in the hiking part and less interested in the merit badge part. Plus at the end of the day I was pretty beat to teach from trying to keep up with the boys. When we had our post mortem discussion the guys told me that they would rather got to summer camp to get badges and go on hikes to just hike. So we scrapped the idea and kept the event separate.
last edited: 8/22/07 6:41:28 AM”

“OK, I do understand that hpm. We have two different summer camps they can attend, and a series of spring backpacking trips that build up to a long backpacking trip or two during the summer for the older more experienced boys.

The thing is, on the two JMT's we had planned, less than a handful of boys ended up going. Our troop is at least 80 strong, so there are at least 40/50 boys who are age/experience eligible. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I think this year the trips concentrated on older boys as per usual and they were not the ones wanting to go. I think I'll bring this up tonight at the Scoutmaster's meeting.”

“You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Yep, very true but you have to consider that with any size group there will always be variable interest in any given activity. When an activity isn't a draw you have to ask the guys who didn't go why they didn't go. Sometimes it is the nature of the activity and sometimes it's just a matter of scheduling.

With 40 possible attendees a scheduling issue seems unlikely to be the common thread.

But we are all in agreement. The boys should drive everything in the program except the cars.”

“We just got back from a 4 day trip in the Sawtooths. There were only 3 boys, but they had a good time. They were 11, 12, and 12, with the 11 year old being by far the strongest hiker. We hiked less than 5 miles each day, and fished each day. I can see this group doing a 5 or 6 day backpack next year, and hiking 6 miles a day easily.

On a backpack the previous weekend was a Life scout who had been to scout summer camp 4 times, and this summer was his first time backpacking, and he had a good time. I have to question a program where life scouts, and I guess Eagles, have never backpacked.

In our troop it seems like the older boys opt to car camp, and the younger boys who find that tiresome drop out of the troop. So just letting the boys decide activities will tend to gravitate to a tv watching and video game playing level. I think the adults set some parameters on what the boys choose to do, or we would be camping at a water slide park and playing video games.

I've also seen our adult leaders back off from boy oversight, and we have a "Lord of the Flies" situation develop on almost every car camp, with hazing, intimidation, teasing, taking the weaker boys gear, some kids crying, training going on if at all depending on the particular patrol leader, vandalism, dumping of uneaten food in bushes around camp sites, and a lot of kids just dropping out.

My efforts have been to make the backpacks available, and train the younger boys (the older ones are not interested) in backpacking. Next year, the trained boys will help train the next class of scouts, and maybe in a few years we'll be a backpacking troop instead of a car camping troop.

Plus if you leave the decision of the schedule totally up to the boys, they will pick what they know, and if they know car camping that is what they will pick. Plus the kids doing the picking are car campers and not the young backpackers. So the boys picking the outings is fine, but making some other activities available to them is also OK, and if they like it, fine. I think that some of them will prefer backpacking once they try it, so I make the trips available to them.”

“Bob...years ago the other half got into the "let em pick the clothes at the store"...I used to get three or four outfits and ask "Which one do you want."...Controlled Picking...”

“XL: I think that is what I'm talking about. I'm also saying, "even if you don't want to make a backpack the official trip of the month, I'm going on one each month anyway, and whoever wants to can go with me."”

“Well you are headed the right way. I agree. One other thing we did was we started with some easy (wins) and then hit some hard ones. The kids who "I can't hike ten miles" were the first to be proud when we did the 16 that one day.”

“16 miles in one day? Wow! We had a few day hikes to get in condition, and our first two backpacks were two miles one way. We've had 5 backpacks total, the last one being 4 days in the Sawtooths of Idaho.”

“Sounds like the regular campout situation is piss-poor. The adult leaders are not doing their jobs.

Glad you're involved and doing what you're doing. It may always be a smaller group that backpacks (It has been for me), but they'll be into it and appreciate you for giving them the opportunity.”

“yeah and the best part is I was carrying "the backup kit" with emergency gear etc. I did about 10 of it with blistered feet.”

“Laurel starts her career in the GSA on the 20th. Oh, joy.”

“i bet she's excited!”

“Yes, she is. She's already planning a bunch of hiking and camping trips. :)

I think it'll be tough getting the other parents hyped to that though.”

“They will get on board or we will get our own ship.”

“:-)”