TT Scouter support network

“Bob, I can't help you. The sad thing is I have seen way to many kids leave Scouts for Soccer/Baseball/Football.

I see the parents 10, 12 years later and they mention junior left the sport a couple of years ago. They really have nothing to show. I keep relating my conversation to a 'Soccer Coach". He watched us get loaded up (one hour process) and then walked over and said,"I don't understand, with my kids I say "GET ON THE BUS" and they do."

I looked at him and said,"Yes and after 7 or 8 years of soccer your kids are able to 'Get on the bus". My kids at 14 can plan a menu, select a trip, select a site, run a group of boys and handle a slew of problems that crop up."

Scouting is a learning process...sometime the toughest thing to learn is YOU made a bad mistake.”

“You can't compete with the other activities, don't try. You offer the best program you can. They have choices to make. They will make them. For some the choice will be scouting. I can tell you the competition for their time doesn't get any easier when they get to high school and college. I've been advisor for a coed Venturing Crew for about 6 years. Take sports, add marching band, National Honor Society... One thing I've noticed is that the ones that stay in scouting are the ones that do the best in school and other activities and are the happiest. I think every Venturer I've had has stayed in school and graduated from high school (or will) and gone on to college.”

“My take has always been that Scouting will be there when the sports season ends. Don't look at it as a choice of one or the other. Do what Scouting activities you can during the season, but don't stress the things you miss. If his buddies are having a blast doing Scout stuff, he may just decide to miss a few games instead.”

“LOL, I have a Scout who left for a year becuase he was 'embarrased" about being in scouting. Then one night he was with friends and was hearing all the NEAT stuff we were doing...he came back to us.

You know when Columbine happened a teacher had been shot in a classroom. They sent a student 2 classrooms down to get an Eagle Scout (not the captain of the Soccer team or the lead Violinist) to "do something".

In another shooting a young scout took three rounds (22 cal) to take down a shooter in the lunch room. In each case the relationship to scouting was dropped by the media.”

“I agree with NoProb and Garfum.

I'm not here to compete with other programs. I'm here to deliver a top notch BSA program. If that isn't good enough for them then there is nothing I can do about it. I'm going to fill up the calendar year long. If they miss something, fine, sorry we missed you. Just know that there is plenty more scouting where that came from. Hope to see you there next time.

Oh yeah, we told the boy that church, school and family come before Scouts. Pick your own preferred order.



Crap, I just realized that as of this month I'm no longer a Boy Scout. :(

I've been continuously registered since 1980. Talk about a life change.
last edited: 3/05/07 2:31:57 PM”

“That's a shame XL. The media does love to publish the negative stuff though which I do not believe is completely representative of the organization. Scouting is not perfect, but I do believe that it helps to make well rounded kids.

I remember trying to help my son balance scouting and other activities. Our troop had a policy of "school before scouts". So if the activity was school based, such as marching band, the boy was expected to attend the school function. The trick is to not get your kid involved in too much stuff.

Ok, I will take this opportunity to brag about my son. He is an Eagle scout. He has been putting this on his resume (of what little there is at this point) that he has been submitting for summer internships. He's gotten a few responses so far and each one has started off the conversation with something like "So, you're an Eagle scout?"”

“HPM why are you getting out of Scouting?”

“Well, I moved away from my troop and I'm spending my time on my own family now.

Part of the reason is that I always get super involved with Scouting. Pretty much to the point that I do far more than is probably prudent. Especially considering that I have a daughter and not a son.

I figure that I'll get active in Girl Scouts when Laurel gets older. Boy Scouts might have to wait awhile.”

“HPM, when she gets to 9th grade, Venturing is available to her. My daughter did as much in Venturing as most boys get to do (including staff at National Boy Scout Jamboree in 2005).”

“Yes thanks, I'm aware of Venturing.
Good program there.”

“OK, I have outed myself to the parents of our troop. The entire year's schedule is one car camp after another, so I sent this proposal out today. I am anxious to see if there is any support for this kind of schedule. They may not like me basically rejecting their carefully planned schedule of car camping trips:

Troop "123" Scouters:

I am hoping to lead some day hikes this spring that would be open to any of the troop 123 boys, and which would be well suited to the younger boys. On these hikes, we should be able to identify local flowers, cook on stoves, let the boys plan meals, pump water, break in gear, and do some conditioning for summer backpacks. I was thinking of hikes off Rocky Canyon, or around Shaeffer Butte. If those hikes go well, I'd like to lead some overnight backpacks that the younger boys could handle, and which the older boys would also enjoy, and their participation would be appreciated. The backpacks in the summer will go better if we have some easy hikes first. With these day hikes, a few overnight backpacks in the summer, and maybe a 4 day hike that is less mileage than the 50 miler, so the younger boys could handle it, I'll bet we could get all the new scouts some great experience, if not advanced to first class scout.

A look at my calendar, and avoiding conflicts like soccer, Mother's Day, and the swim team city meet, as well as planned Troop 123 activities, indicates these as possible dates for hikes.

Mar 31, day hike, like from 10 or 11 to 4 pm
April 8, day hike, like from 11 to 4 PM
May 12, day hike, maybe a longer one, 8 - 3 pm.
May 26-27, Memorial Day, possible over night hike to snow free area or along a river.
June 9-10, Troop 94 is going on a backpack that weekend, and have indicated we could join them and go to the same place, TBD.
June 30, July 1, possible overnight
July 21-22, possible overnight
Aug 2-5, possible 4 day trip, shorter than the 50 miler, and suitable for younger boys, in nice alpine country.

My proposal and questions:

Would trips such as these be approved by the committee as Troop 123 trips, and how do I go about getting trips such as these authorized?

Are there one or more adult leaders who would like to co-lead one or more of these activities?

Is there interest among the scouts in trips such as these?

For 11 year olds, I would ask that a parent accompany them, or that they be well equipped for the trip, and motivated to do it. Having some older boys along to help the younger ones would help a lot. I have some gear that I can loan out, but kids would need hiking shoes, wool socks, a foam sleeping pad, rain gear, and layered clothing. The number of younger boys on overnight trips might be limited by the number of adults and older scouts that go on the trip, and by the number of drivers for pickup, drop off, and hauling equipment.

For those Scouters and Scout parents whom I have not met, you may be wondering who I am. I have backpacked for 40 years, mostly in California, Washington, and Idaho. I have been active in mountain rescue and Nordic Ski Patrol, and mountaineering. I currently teach a backpacking class at BSU, and until recently I taught a winter survival and winter camping class at BSU. My 10 year old son Jim recently joined Troop 123, and has been backpacking for 5 years, and I would like to see if there is any interest among Troop 123 Scouts and parents in doing more backpacking in this and future summers. Feel free to let me know if this kind of alternative trip is of interest to the kids or parents of the troop, and if you would be able to help.
last edited: 3/13/07 2:12:04 PM”

“Bob, you are the Scoutmaster?”

“No, my son has been in the troop for one month, and I'm not even an assistant scoutmaster (yet). I'm just want to find out if this kind of schedule is possible or if it will meet a lot of resistance. Plus I'm impatient with car camping, and pushy when it comes to backpacking.

I expect to get two kinds of reaction:

1. who do you think you are?

2. thank God someone finally said something!
last edited: 3/13/07 2:36:55 PM”

“it all depends on the troop and how it's run. there is really no way to know. in general i have found most troops (adult leaders and boys) are eager to hear suggestions from parents that want to be involved. ask to present your ideas and be prepared to back it up with your time. i have had good success in general as it relates to policy changes (gear renewal, etc). i have had zero success with things like recommending events, introducing backpacking, etc. i think a lot has to do with being perceived as "bucking" the established patterns of a given troop.

personally i have 95% given up on the boy scouts. in fact after my trip to the grand canyon and the stories the rangers told me i would say i have now 99% given up on the boy scouts. terrible stuff. the quality seems so variant from troop to troop and i have to wonder if the goal of the program (development of leadership skills) hasn't been totally scattered as to be effectively obliterated.

i'll still go to the troop meetings and volunteer my time as the varsity team coach, but i won't kid myself. at this point all the scouts provide my son is entertainment. i have tried to talk him out of the program but he insists on staying put and i respect his decision.

whoa, so negative as i re-read this! oh well. it is what it is. good luck!”

“Take a breath guys...first of all , bob is how soon can you get the a scoutmaster training program. Normally if the troop is not going OUT enough I find if a leader gets trained they immediatly start looking to him for leadership. I highly recommend Scoutmaster Fundamentals, Introduction to Outdoor Leader (both are going to be REAL BASIC for you) but then look for a Good Woodbadge program). This will give you the skills you need to set a direction for the troop.
Jimmy I understand the problem. My Troop has been dealing with the "car campitis" and we started doing the hikes. The problem is my Scoutmaster and close friend is a paraplegic. So we need to plan where he can be involved. Right now I am looking at the breakin hikes. Where you get up there at Friday night, get up and hike to a new location the Scoutmaster can meet us at. But the boys all have to do the PACK ONLY backpacking.

Jimmy I hear your pain. I have lost the three other leaders I could count in for the backpacking. Today I have one or two other leaders (not fully trained) who I can use. The big failing is TRAINING. Most councils have not a whit of understanding the advantages of WHAT you need. Training not only provides the liability protection but it allows you to network with other leaders and start looking for solutions.

One other thing to look at is Order of the Arrow. These are the best of the best with the scouts.”

“I am thinking if I get 5 kids and a few adults to do these hikes, I'll be fine with that. We might have so much fun that the hiking group grows.

I decided to be somewhat proactive because I talked to another local troop and their basic trip is a backpack, and they invited us to join them. If my present troop totally rejects this idea, I have a place to go that is philosophically more my style. I have also talked to other adults in the troop and they go backpacking with their kids, just not on scout trips. I think there may be 5 or 6 adults who are thinking the same as I am. I'll find out when this proposal hits the fan. I guess if they are totally committed to car camping, I want to know that now, so I don't beat my head against a wall for too long.

Bummer about your experience Jimmy. I am still hopeful.”

“Wow. That's quite the letter.

Bob, if I had gotten a letter from a new parent proposing to organize and run a set of activities that added that much more depth to the program (or even half of what you propose) I'd frankly have to change my shorts. (in a good way) All you need is to get the BSA training out of the way. Most of it will be very basic for you.

Jimmy-
Troop quality is variable in the same way that people are variable. The best you can do is either shop around until you find the right troop or get involved and change things from the inside. If you have to do the latter then expect to bang your head against the wall until one of them breaks. Your influence does matter even though it probably doesn't seem like it to you right now.

Scouts plants seeds. Some of them take a very long time to show growth.

From the stories I've heard from parents it sounds like my old troop is rapidly devolving now that I'm gone. Frankly I'm highly depressed about that but what is a fella to do? Hopefully it's just opinion and not fact.
last edited: 3/13/07 3:01:48 PM”

“i have set up backpack trips with the older scouts in the varsity program... the problem is that the boys were in the program for years before i arrived so their idea of how things should be run is they stand around with their hands in their pockets waiting for an adult to do things for them. if i personally don't do all the "event planning" nothing would ever happen... there is no value in this to the boys other than entertainment and, frankly, it's a waste of my time. i can go backpacking or climbing any time i want without them and i didn't sign up to be an entertainment coordinator. i signed up to participate in a program to develop leadership skills in young men. camping, backpacking, etc was the backdrop upon which these skills were to be developed.

i was asked a while ago if i felt that "cabin camping" should count for nights out camping. i replied, "no" that i didn't feel this was appropriate. so i was challenged on this and i said that i had been on cabin campouts and they required little or no group coordination on the part of the boys... everything was sort of set up for them... no exercise in setting up and running a camp. see, i don't care if it's a car-camp or a backpacking trip. what i want to see is the boys running the event, making mistakes, and learning how to find the resources to learn and correct them... functioning as a patrol as best they can. so, i argued, the whole point to counting the nights of camping is to put a measure of how much time the boys have spent working as a troop practicing leadership skills associated with managing a camp... and the way the troop did "cabin camping" was of no value in this regard. needless to say i didn't get a lot of support, which begs the question as to why they asked me in the first place.

frankly, i can't say i enjoy backpacking with a bunch of blabbering, destructive, hyper, immature, inexperienced boy scouts... but every once in a while one of them pipes up and says something that almost makes me cry and then i am back to almost believing again.

needless to say it's been tough on many levels.
last edited: 3/13/07 3:06:28 PM”

“I was hoping to not come across as a know-it-all, but I'm not very patient with a strictly car camping schedule. Going on hikes and backpacks with kids is not a hardship to me. I may change my tune if they are loud and destructive, or out of control. I will give it a go for the summer.
last edited: 3/13/07 3:06:47 PM”

“HPM, it is kinda sad but I have watched that happen to excellent troops. Bob, the reason for training is to be covered by the Scouting Insurance.

HPM my son (now at 17) wants to play Baseball, I am staying with the troop becuase there needs to be leaders. The most frightening thing for a new parent is NOT knowing what they need or what to do. I am hoping to pick up two new leaders as they bridge. One of the most important things a troop can have is GOOD Assistant Scoutmasters they can really help carry the leadership load.”

“Bob,

You will likely ruffle some feathers with this letter. Maybe they need to be ruffled.

Troop activities are usually laid out at an
annual planning meeting. We invited anyone with interest to attend. In some troops the annual plan is done by the committee - once again any interested party should be able attend. These planning meetings are your chance for input. We put effort into letting anyone know about the time/place of these meeting so they can attend or let their inputs be know prior. Once the annual plan is published changes are difficult.

Go to the monthly committee meeting - fill out an application and join the committee if you must. Don't try to change their system - learn it. It works all over the country and has for years.

I've been taking my 9 year old on BP trips since he was 5. He joined the Venture crew(older Scouts) on several trips in the last two years - but that's not the norm for new Scouts. Some Scouts never like to BP - as much as I'd like to change that I have not been sucessful.”

“Amen Jimmy.

Our troop used to do a yearly trip to a water park where the boys actually stayed in a hotel. Never mind that there was a state park with a group camping area right there. Every year after that event all I heard were stories of kids being so disruptive that the troop had to find a different hotel each year.

I about got beat down when they made me the advancement chair and I told them under no circumstances would I EVER accept a hotel stay as a night camped. I guess they relented when they realized that no one else wanted the job.

Guess what was the first trip permanently removed from the schedule as soon as I became Scoutmaster.

No kidding XL. I had a shortage of good ASMs when I was Scoutmaster. Nothing against the fellas who I did have. They were fine upstanding gentlemen to the last. I just wish I had had a few more just like them.”

“I'm not suggesting changing the schedule, these trips are in addition to the schedule. The committee meeting is in August, and I'll be there this year, but obviously I wasn't there last year. Hopefully we will have some backpacking parents there also, or have some good results for the backpacking activities. Partly my purpose is to see what the response is from the adults, indignation or enthusiasm, because I think it will be one or the other.

I've gone to a few monthly committee meetings, and the next one will be real interesting. I might be tarred and feathered. I think I'd better read up on Baden Powell and see if his vision was more along the lines of wilderness or car camping, and be ready to explain myself.”

“This will be a good read for you... it was a real eye opener for me. Scouting has evolved from the original execution of the program towards it's goals, but the goals themselves have not changed as far as I can tell. I guess what I am trying to say is that the program remains a good program and will be what we make of it. Sadly, I don't think parents are confident enough in their young men to let go and give them a chance to really learn what they can do for themselves. The end result is a program whose full potential isn't even remotely realized.”

“Growing up in a largely blue-collar suburban New Jersey town, we loved our troop's backpacking crew. For many of us, it was really our only ticket out of town -- which can become very valuable, especially in an urban wasteland akin to that of northern New Jersey.

Our goal was to do one "weekender" backpack per season, which combined with regular camping and people's "other" lives, worked well. The winter trip was open only to experienced kids, meaning that you had to have come on at least one of the 3-season trips before and additionally demonstrate you had sufficient gear and clothing for winter.

We would do the Appalachian Trail here in New Jersey (there's a whopping 70 miles of it here, so we're not all urban wasteland ;) or Connecticut or southern New York, including some trips to the Catskills. Worked out very well actually.

Towards the end, we even managed to pull off bigger summer trips, like a 52-mile float over the course of a week down the Delaware River...”

“I hope I didn't come off as discouraging what you're trying to do - when my older son and I showed up at the troop here WE were the backpacking freaks. It took effort on my part just to get the troop camping every month. It only takes one other leader to get on board with backpacking - lucky for me it was the Scoutmaster who I got to join the fight. Be patient with the other Scouts and leaders. Go on your trips with your friend and his kid and bring back pictures.”

“Bob - Good luck with your letter. Not sure how it will be received if you have not been attending Troop Committee meetings where the planning, organizing, and goal setting takes place. We planned our whole year 15 months in advance so we even knew when summer started what our Fall activities were going to be. During the summer planning session people could propose any activities they wanted and we would hash it out. We tried a lot of new stuff that way such as rapelling, sailing, canoeing, etc.

There are BSA rules about depth of leadership on outing and training requirements. Your Council may have requirements of their own. In my Council, on a backpacking trip you must have at least one registered adult along who had taken the Backpack Awaremess Course put on by the Council's High Adventure Team. Our troop believed in three deep leadership for backpacking trips (if something went wrong, one to go for help and two to stay with the troop).

I introduced our troop to Philmont. I passed out a survey to all the eligible boys and asked who would be interested in Philmont if we organized the trip. Every eligible boy said yes and only one cancelled out (financial reasons, but the troop was willing to help out). We had a great time. The troop was already into 20% backpacking trips and has since been to Philmont at least three more times. They backpack more now including Sierra trips in the summer.

Jimmy - I don't understand why you would give up on Scouting in general when you don't really know what every troop is doing. There is room for variation both leadership and in troop activities within scouting. The troop we were active in for 8 years is still going strong. 10 years later my son and I are still registered with the troop just for sentimental reasons, if nothing else.”

“I'd have to say Bob, I talked to a dad like you, (he's in our troop now), but he barreled into a troop just like that. The troop really does changing, but it didn't like to hear it. They kicked him AND his kid out just before summer camp, and the kid totally lost his chance to go to summer camp last year. Fortunately OUR troop with all of it's various carcamp/backpack/canoe (and one rockclimbing camp) activites suits him better. However due to a number of schools opening up in a new area, he is going to build a new troop with several interested adults.

I'd say get all the training they have to offer you and drag every parent with you to training. Once everyone gets the buzz, maybe something really can change.

I wish you all could see our troop, it really is boy planned/run. The PLC runs up a whole list of camps/activities, runs it by the boys, votes are taken. Group Reservations are made by adults in the troop, but all other plans are handled by PLC and patrols. Sometimes it's a little messy, and we have to ask questions to get them to iron things out, but it always gets done eventually. I thank God everyday for this troop and the fact that BrianSean picked it above all the others.

All you need to start with is one awsome Scoutmaster who also happens to be an excellent leader with adults, these kind of people can move mountains with the help of a handful of loyal hardworking well trained Asst Scoutmasters and dedicated parents behind all.

Sort of like building a fire, isn't it?”

“frankly, if i could get my son out i would do it... but he wants to stay and i respect his decision and will support it as best I can. i don't think the program is hurting him or anything dramatic like that, but he certainly isn't getting anything out of it than social interaction with other boys. He doesn't need the Scouts to get that.”

“My five years of Scouting as a boy and eight years as an adult were awesome.

I did switch troops when I was a Scout. My first troop had one outing in the first six months and because it was snowing we turned around and came home. I couldn't even get anyone to sign off my tenderfoot requirements in those six months. I switched troops to one that had an outing every month. We even built our own campground on some private property in the Cleveland National Forest.”

“SO Phil Baden Powell was that much of a wimp? (LOL)

As for planning...technically it is a BOY Run unit. SO our boys plan...the problem is when you rotate Scoutmasters and one sees a group doing so well (seemingly effortlessly) they think its an easy ride.

What I have had to do is start "leaking" stuff to the kids...maps of hikes, locations for FUN stuff. They are making the decision, but the kids are going along with it.
I had one Senior Patrol Leader who is pretty much a mommas boy and each time we would discuss Hiking he would disappear. So we had one hike planned. He kept being negative as heck about it. I finally had one of the Younger Assistant Scoutmasters tell him he didn't have to go if he didn't want to.

Look in the Scout Masters handbook and check out the forms. You would be amazed at the amount of information to help your unit. Really the most often found reason for a unit falling out is that the Leaders forget "Resources" my Lord you can't do it all. Get with kids, set a 5 year or 3 year plan (you may never make it but hey it sets a direction). Finally, most kids are scared of backpacking becuase they have never done it. So start small.”

“Sometimes just a 7 mile backpack in with a nice spot to stay, like oh, a lake or river to play in, fish etc. That will be all you need to turn a kid on to backpacking forever.”

“Rule 1: Make it fun.
Rule 2: See rule one.”

“HPM has the basic law of scouting. HPM you ever meet the Scoutmaster who goes bananas when the troop goes out for a weekend and "accomplishes NOTHING"?

Hey if the kids have fun it was successful.”

“what xl just said! AMEN!”

“We always figured if we brought them home tired and dirty, we done our job. It helps to get home with the same number you leave with too.
last edited: 3/14/07 4:13:52 PM”

“It helps if you have some fun / cool paces to take them! I've been reading this thread but don't have much to offer because I never had any of these problems - my scouts didn't ever want to go car-camping, we were exclusively a backpacking troop, that's all they ever wanted to do! Of course, we're 45 minutes away from some of the most awesome trails in the U.S., and we used to do a lot of fun activities whenever we were out. Fishing was always a favorite, as well as what they called "cliff jumping! :), we'd often try to camp near a lake with rocks / cliffs they could climb up & jump off, that was a BIG HIT! I remember a few times we found spots where they could slide down hillsides covered with snow into a lake, a BIG favorite! Of course, when you're as close to the Sierra as we are, and you have places like Lake Tahoe, Desolation Wilderness, etc., 45 minutes to an hour away, or Yosemite, Hetch Hetchy & similar places just 3-4 hours drive, we could always pick primo spots to hike! Our last "50 miler" was about 85-90 miles down the John Muir Trail!

And yes, I'm proud to say nearly every one became an Eagle! I think a lot of that was because we had so much fun they wanted to stay involved in scouting.
last edited: 3/14/07 5:03:19 PM”

“We are in Boise, and have wonderful mountains nearby. We have the Sawtooths, the White Clouds, the Pioneers, the Boulders, the Smokeys, the Lost Rivers, the McCall Mtns, the Eagle Cap Wilderness, the Bitterroots, Bob Marshall Wilderness, and the Selkirk Range. We are 6 hours from Mt. Hood, Mt. Rainer, Mt Adams, and Mt. St. Helends, and 8 hours from Mt. Shasta.

In that environment, we still have zero day hikes, and zero backpacks on the calendar. We are going to spend the next three troop meetings working on theater merit badges for everyone in the troop. The 50 miler last year was attended by two boys, and there is no 50 miler on the schedule this year. Its really more of a thing where two of the guys go on a hike with their sons, and call it a troop 50 miler.

Call me crazy, but I think the boys are missing a great wilderness experience and getting an experience not much better than staying in a motel. Since my son's scouting time may be only three years, I don't want to sit out the first summer without an attempt to change course, or maybe just offer some other opportunities.”

“Oh yeah XL, but usually it was parents concerned that we weren't doing enough to "get the kids to Eagle".

I had one parent in particular who always asked what will get signed off on each trip. I don't plan trips like that. Our purpose was never book signing, it was Scouting, and to me that meant fun with some learning sneaked in when the boys weren't noticing.

I can just imagine that parent running a troop:
Ok guys this weekend we will sign off Tendetfoot requirements 1A,B,C 2, 4, 8a, C
2nd Clas 3,4,10, 11
1st Class 1, 4, 5A, 5B and 5C
It'll be a blast.

Compared to:
Ok guys this weekend we will put everything you need for a weekend in a 20 pound backpack and hike 5 miles on the Florida trail by the light of the full moon. When we wake up we will cook our eggs in a brown paper bag over a campfire we started without matches. We will hike a few more miles until lunch and we will play a round of wiffleball or maybe frisbee the winners will win a special prize. After lunch we will hike to hidden pond and go for a swim. That night Mr. Long will bake cinnimon rolls using only a sheet of aluminum foil set near the campfire. After a game of manhunt we will make some popcorn and stargaze until we nod off. The next morning you better be up and ready to hike to the cars or the thermarest viper will get you!

I guessing not many kids will get excited about that first trip. That parent could never see that we cover three times as much material and had more fun to boot.
last edited: 3/14/07 8:48:57 PM”

“i think for most parents scouting is about them and not about their boys. that's why so many guys show up to camp with crap for gear... roller bags instead of backpacks, sub-standard sleeping bags, no pads, etc, etc. anything that involves spending money of any type is basically right out... cheap bastards.”

“Now I know why HPM is such a foil expert. I once saw him make ice cream cones out of the stuff.”

“even the richest parents in my troop are cheap basta***!!! i have the least money in the troop and i and all of my children are among the best equipped!

sometimes i have the urge to write the nastiest letter.”

“HPM - Our troop philosophy was to have a boy run troop and make having fun the top priority. That way the boys would stay in gradually make their way to Life Scout. Then they were about 14 or 15 and would make the personal decision to go for Eagle.

We used to get boys transferring in from a neighboring troop where it was adult run almost like the military (no kidding). And when new parents came in to our troop and complained that we were not "disciplined" enough, we would send them to the other troop!”

“i agree it all has to be fun... the boys won't play the game if it's not fun... but scouting isn't just about having fun. there are lots of things that will entertain boys but not many that will develop the timeless values a well run boy scout program delivers. it's like a vitamin pill with a sugar coating to trick you into thinking it's candy.”

“We think alike Phil.

Darn right Jimmy.”

“Well we have gone through the "program vs MONEY" crapola down here. I finally had to tell the leaders "If we give them a good program ..the money will show up."

Our council had a Council Exec who was supposed to do a great program instead he went MONEY crazy. The guy was a miserable people person and a lousy administrator.

Now we have a much more people person who is trying to clean up a rather embarrassing mess.

HERE is a comment starter?

Minimum age to make Eagle? I know if technically can be done by 13 years. And I know parents who more or less GOT their kid the Eagle rank by 13, but my philosophy is Get to First Class by the first year, then work for two or three years to get to Life. Then back off and enjoy SCOUTING for a year or so and get Eagle around 16 or so.”

“We tried to provide a program where the boy has the opportunity to earn first class in one year. The go-getters did it in a year (or less), the regular guys made in about a year and a half at most and the guys that either weren't into it or needed more attention did it in two with some pushing. I think 16 is a good age to earn Eagle.

I used to be all for minimum ages for Eagle. I'm not anymore. I'd rather not punish and hold up a highly motivated boy because of the fakers and parent resume builders of the world.”

“I have seen a few who were just motivated...but by and large I watch the EARLY eagles burn out. Besides I have yet to see a 13 or 14 year old Eagle who could properly direct a 17 year old Life Scout.

There is some maturity in that...plus I want the kids to come to Scouting for the fun.”

“I've seen one, just one.
But yes, my preference is also that they gain a bit more maturity before Eagle.”

“in many cases the parents want the eagle more than many of the scout. i get a lot of parents trying to con me into accepting garbage but i refuse to sell the scouting program short. i still believe that eagle means something, despite being jaded about the program, and i likewise believe that if i were to start handing them out by letting people con their way around requirements I would be diminishing the program.”