TT Scouter support network

“I probably know about 20 Eagle Scouts from our troop since we got involved and the youngest was 15, most were 16 or 17. I think it is the rare person who would have the leadership and project experience much before that.

I am aware of troops where the adult leadership supplies the Eagle Projects, which makes it easier for a younger boy to finish up. But I think part of the learning experience is finding a need on your own and personally developing the project.

Not sure about putting a minimum age on it, but if I did it would be 14.”

“I made a proposal to the troop committee to lead 3 day hikes, and three backpacks that the younger scouts could participate in, and in their meeting they said they supported the plan. So now I'll have to get a second adult to go on each outing, and see if the kids and some parents are interested. I hope some of them are.”

“best of luck to you ib and congrats. i had better luck with getting parents signed than i had with adult leaders. the one adult leader i did get signed up i would up carrying his pack out for 3/4 a mile.”

“that's great idaho bob! your hikes are working up the backpack; right? you may need to get those adults in shape or you WILL have Jimmy san's problem, i've seen it happen. our troop has a regular weekly hike beginning with daylight savings for that, to get the boys ready for the backpacks and some adults too. they can start with a small daypack and then start adding weight, soon a backpack. it's also a nice way for the adults to get to know each other.”

“Good Luck BOB! I am rebuilding my Hiking corps of adults. After all the other adults kids Aged out (heck mine has been gone for a while) the left, I stayed.”

“Good on ya Bob.”

“Did you guys get your Boys Life today? Those boys with bigfoot are from my troop! The bummer is that they misidentified us as being from Oregon; what's up with that?”

“Bit O' history. 27 continuous years in scouting from Tenderfoot to Scoutmaster and the most difficult thing was to get the adults to cooperate on the hikes and week-enders. My hats off to anyone who can motivate the adults to support the troops. Especially in this day and age where everyone is paranoid about the outdoors.”

“Looks like this is a problem everywhere. My son want to do the Backpacking merit badge so I asked how many other boys would be interested in doing it. I have 6 boys that want to do it. I said you will need to get another adult to go along. At that point all the adult leaders ran and hid. One boy said his dad would jump at the chance. But his dad is always a no show. If he does show up he may very well just leave sometime during the day. He did this once to me on a primitive campout. We had 8 boys out on a campout and he said he had to go do a job. He just left the boys and me all alone. I had to call someone else to come help me transport the boys back home. I cannot ever count on him.
I could do this badge with just my son but that wouldn't be fair to the other boys.
It's hard to get help to do these things. I think if an adult is going to sign up as a leader they had better be prepared to help unless there is some physical reason they can't.”

“I had this problem when I had a Girl Scout troop. It took one near cancel of a campout before things got better. But I heard a lot of nasty things were said behind my back about my not having a license/vehicle. (I did not get a driver's license until I was 40, and we couldn't afford a vehicle for many years)”

“I don't understand why a parent would not want to go on an occaisional hike or backpack with their kid. I've been looking forward to this age and backpacks with my son since he was born. Now we need kids his age to join us, so he'll keep it up and have fun. If I even get 5 kids to like backpacking, they will be the core of the venture crew when they are older.

I am told the hiking/backpacking project was well recieved at the committee meeting, but I bet there were a few who would prefer the car camping schedule. Some parents have said they are glad to see some hiking being planned. I thought that was what scouts were for, wilderness experiences and skills, and the maturation that comes with that.

So far two parents have committed to the hike, which was only announced by email yesterday and isn't till 1.5 weeks from now. I figure these day hikes are my chance to get the kids pumped about backpacking.”

“I'm pullin for ya Bob!

I was lucky that one other leader(the Scoutmaster) was always willing to go hike. That was with my older son(now 17). My younger son will cross over to Boy Scouts next year. The old Scoutmaster is gone. I'm working on the finding another leader to hike with now.”

“to those involved in active troops, can I get a calendar of your troops activities? I'd like to see what other troops typically do, such as how many backpacks, how do they do overnights in the winter, etc. I have gotten some encouraging comments from parents, and hope to include backpacking in next years calendar, which is created in August. Please email them to shaver@dykaslaw.com. Thanks.”

“I sent it off to you Bob.”

“Thanks for the calendar, Pamela. It is most impressive. We had our first hike,and there were 18 people, of which 6 were boys, the rest adults. We hiked about 5 miles, identified flowers, and lucked out with good weather in a week of rain and windy weather. More parents expressed support, so maybe we can be a backpacking troop after this season's trips. We'll plan the next years calendar, and I'll try to make at least some of the trips backpacks.

I go to IOLS training this weekend to learn the scout way to camp. It is at a park, and will be tailgate camping, but in tents.”

“You are most welcome bob, anytime. I'm glad to hear it went well, especially that you had so many adults. It is a great beginning! I passed your pats on the back to the rest of the scoutmasters at our last meeting, you made everyone feel pretty good.

Try to get some of those adults to take the training with you.”

“when we have our meeting in August to plan the next year's schedule, I'll show your troop's schedule and say "this is what an REAL active troop does". To spend the boy's scouting years car camping is just a crying shame. I've got to be careful to not come across as too disgusted by their car camping trips, but it will be hard. Of course, we have a colder and more snowy winter, so overnights in the winter are a little harder.”

“go south! how close is your closest desert?”

“bob, let me know how your IOLS training goes, I've been leading that training for a few years in my district and am trying to spice up the course.

I've got a combo campout next week, we're going to a state park, most of the boys will be staying in the campground while another leader and I are taking 6 boys backpacking at the park.”

“Yep, I'm with Pamela on that one.
When it got too nasty sticky hot in summer we took the boys north out of Florida. Seems that heading south would work for your boys in winter.”

“Btw, just what is IOLS? I've had a few trainings, but I don't remember this one, must be different in different states.

Get every training you can! Take every adult you can. If they are weekend ones, take those, they are more comprehensive and a whole heck of a lot more fun when you get to spend the night camping. Besides, what adult doesn't want to get away for a weekend?”

“Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills”

“I survived the IOLS training. We camped in a park with bathrooms but NO WATER. It was very tough. I learned all about car camping, and I think I am ready to try car camping now. For ChuckD, we had 30 minute sessions on various topics, such as:

selection of a camp site

Duty to God: teach kids general manners and appreciation

wood tools (sharpening axes and saws, and the protocol of the axe yard)

first aid: first aid kit for boys

cooking (for car camping): dutch oven, coleman stove, monster propane camp stoves

alternative fuels: alcohol stoves, smaller propane stoves, gasoline stoves

fire starting: how to make char cloth, and starting a fire in general

lashing poles together

knot tying

plant identification (60 minutes)

backpacking gear: stoves and packs

map and compass

Its tough to cover these topics in 30 minutes, but i would give then a C in most topics. I would be interested to see what you cover in your course, Chuck.

Some of these skills are traditional or archaic skills, that I don't know if they are worth the time to teach. Is there ever a proper place to do lashings? The knots learned might need to be updated to include knots for nylon sling material, and nylon ropes. The map and compass portion was really how to take a gps number and find your position on a map, and how to read a bearing on an object.”

“I've lashed up many a treehouse in my day.”

“how about sharpening a two man 10 foot long crosscut saw?

topics not discussed:

no cotton clothing
mechanisms of heat transfer, and how to minimize heat loss
Survival kit
how to orient the map before reading it
backpacking trail and camp protocols
treating blisters
clothing for backpacking or even car camping
equipment list for backpacking
backpacking cooking
signalling with a mirror, whistle, fire
what a kid should do if lost
starting a fire with wet wood, in the rain”

“lol, nope. No crosscuts for me.

You have to keep in mind that backpacking is considered by many in the BSA as an advanced activity sort of thing. That opinion depends entirely on the personalities involved in any given troop or district.
last edited: 4/23/07 11:27:18 AM”

“My impression was that if this training is the official scout program, it is basically oriented to car camping, and backpacking at all is not done by some troops, and backpacking with younger boys is largely unheard of.

However, I have run into backpacking troops in the backcountry, plus Pamela's and other troops are very oriented to backpacking, so I know its possible. I think a troop will do what the adult leadership core directs it to do, so its possible to have a backpacking troop if there are 4 or 5 adults who want to go that direction.

I also found that when I made a pot of coffee, I could not give it away, and after offering some coffee to several groups, I realized, "oh yeah, they are all Mormons."”

“You are where I was some years ago and your impression is correct on all counts.”

“IB, what you're trying to do is very possible.

My Troop was almost exclusively a backpacking troop, the only time we car-camped was when we had to, i.e., summer camp, other group scouting functions.

Ours was also a Boy-Run Troop, backpacking is what the boys wanted to do. We started introducing them to backpacking when they first bridged over, and told them they could decide what they wanted to do - car-camp or backpack! From that first year on, our biggest problem was often getting enough boys for a car-camping trip :). Hands-down they MUCH preferred backpacking!”

“I'm wondering how to make backpacking work with mostly 11 and 12 year olds. I have heard that 25% of body weight is the limit of pack weight, so my son at 68 pounds should carry not much more than 17 or 18 pounds. His pack just makes it at that weight, but with no fishing pole, no frying pan, or any other extras.

My son has a lot of good gear because of hand-me-downs from his older sister, and because I shop swap meets, thrift stores and ebay for deals. Will getting equipped be a big barrier for a lot of kids? How do backpacking troops put it to the parents to get good and light equipment? Are there good handouts with equipment advice?

Do you enlist the older boys to carry some of the younger boys weight?

Do you devote some weekly meetings to discussing backpacking, ultralight gear, clothing, and equipment?

Do you require the kids loaded backpack to be turned in the day before the trip? Do you weigh packs before the trip and make them "make weight?"

What roles do you ask the older boys to help with? menu selection and food packing? Leading on trail?

Do you stay together as a group? Divide into a slow and a fast group? Can a backpack meet BSA requirements with only two adults?

I think these are solvable problems, but any knowledgable advice would be appreciated. Our first backpack is over Memorial Day, and we have another day hike before then.”

“We have modified the "offical syllabus" over the years.

Our course runs from Friday evening to Sunday noon.

Friday night we cover backpacking, topics we cover include:
Backcountry health and first aid
backpacks
sleeping bags
stoves
clothing, including layering basics
10+ essentials
hiking techniques
Leave No Trace
We finish the session by feeding them various backpacking foods.

Here's an outline of our course:
Friday Evening:

7:00 –10:30 PM Training/ Session 1
Hiking, Backpacking
Leave No Trace
10:00 – 10:30 PM Cracker Barrel, backpacking foods

Saturday:

6:30 AM
6:30 – 7:00 AM Wake-up, Clean-up
7:00 – 8:15 AM Breakfast (cook, eat & clean-up)
8:20 – 8:30 AM Flag Ceremony
8:30 – 8:45 AM Welcome, Announcements

8:45 – 11:30 AM Training/Session 2
Plant & Animal Identification
Health and Safety
Summer Camps

11:30 AM – 1:00 PM Dutch Oven Cooking Demonstration & Lunch

1:00 – 5.30 PM Training/Session 3
Ropes and knots
Woods tools
Fire building

5:30 – 7:00 PM Dinner (prepare, cook & clean-up)
6:00 PM Flag Retirement

7:00 – 9:30 PM Training/Session 4
Supplemental Training Courses
Open Discussion
10:00 – 11:00 PM Cracker Barrel
11:00 PM Lights Out

Sunday:
6:30 AM
6:30 – 7:00 AM Wake-up, Clean-up
7:00 – 8:15 AM Breakfast (Cook, eat, clean-up)
8:20 – 8:45 AM Flag Ceremony, Brief Religious Service

8:45 – Noon Training/Session 5
First Aid
Map & Compass
12:15 – 12:30 PM Closing and SM/ASM Awards”

“1.Do you enlist the older boys to carry some of the younger boys weight?

1A. Absolutlely not. Teach the concept of "self-responsibility"!

2. Do you devote some weekly meetings to discussing backpacking, ultralight gear, clothing, and equipment?

2A. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes

3. Do you require the kids loaded backpack to be turned in the day before the trip?
3A. Of course

3QA. Do you weigh packs before the trip and make them "make weight?"
3Qaa. Yes.

What roles do you ask the older boys to help with?

Every Role!!! What do you think they are there for?
menu selection - yes, of course! and
food packing? yes, of course!
Leading on trail? yes, of course!

Do you stay together as a group? yes, of course! How could you even ask this? Just imagine one of your slower boys falling & hurting hoimself... and then your response is "well he was one of the slower boys?"

Divide into a slow and a fast group? NO!

Can a backpack meet BSA requirements with only two adults?

Do you mean a backpacking trip? The answer is yes, if you have 8 or fewer boys on the trip.
last edited: 4/23/07 6:16:48 PM”

“This is the most basic of basic training. It's designed for people who have never camped before in their life! I can remember my thoughts (similar to yours but WAY more extreme!) whenever I first attended all of the basic training prpograms.

Come to think of it... one of the biggest single reasons why I became so involved in Scouting was I couldn't accept their incredibly poor training from people who didn't have first-hand knowledge of their course material!

Maybe you've just discovered your calling in life... Scout Training!! :)”

“wanderer, I know just what you mean, I helped out on a course, mentioned I thought it lacked some things, next thing you know it was put up or shut up. That was 5 years and about 30 courses ago. I do get them early now because I also do the BALOO and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders too. The good thing was the District paid my course fees for the Philmont Training Center course.”

“what backpacking items does your troop provide for each patrol or for each scout?

cookset? what kind of cookset?
stove? what kind?
cups?
bowls?
spoons?
trowel for bathroom runs?
tents?

Do you keep the cups, bowls and spoons together, or does each scout carry their own?

What is your procedure for food selection and packing for a backpack?

What is your procedure for pack inspection and weighing?”

“trowel and bathroom runs are scary when they're in the same sentence.”

“We don't provide any of the backpacking gear except tents. We have Dana Design Nuk Tuks tents mainly for that purpose.

All the other gear is owned by the scouts. We'll coordinate so we have enough stoves and filters for the group.”

“When backpacking all normal car camping gear is available for the patrols to use but the only things they choose to use are tarps and sometimes tents. Even then most guys like to use their own tents rather than troop tents.”

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“We have the standard cookgear, tents, water kegs, flys etc.

NOW for the adults we have a deal where each adult gets a personal Hooters Girl to handle the cooking, and massage duties.....”

“"oh did I mention the tent comes with a coupon for a free personal Hooters Girl?”

“what backpacking items does your troop provide for each patrol or for each scout?

Tents only, everything else was scout-owned. Since we were big-time backpacking troop, most of the guys eventually ended up with a Bivy Sack or one of the single-person Eureka things.

We used to recommend MSR Whisperlights or Pocket-rockets so the guys could share, one guy brought the stove, his buddy for that trip brought the fuel bottle, etc.

Each scout carries their own gear. Exception was any "Troop Gear", such as "Troop 1st Aid Kit" and water filters, usually had an adult carry those. (each scout had to have his own personal 1st aid kit & top-ten, of course, the "troop" 1st aid kit had unique items.. wire splints, that kind of stuff each personal kit didn't need)

What is your procedure for food selection and packing for a backpack?

Meal-planning was the subject of one of the Troop Meetings prior to the trip. Final food selection was reviewed / approved there.

Pack inspection and weighing was also one of the things we did during a Troop Meeting. Everyone had to bring their pack, fully loaded, and we'd review all of them as a meeting function to make sure each scout had all required gear & that weight was acceptable. That was when we also had the scouts who were "buddies" for that trip make sure they were on the same page regarding who was bringing what gear that they were sharing (that was so we didn't end up with two scouts with a stove & no one with fuel! :)”

“Thanks for the good info. How about buying the food and repackaging it into zip lock bags, one bag per meal? Who does it and when?”

“For car camping there are patrol boxes with a 2 burner stove and all cook equipment, cleaning supplies, and a cooler.

For backpacking we have jetboils & pumps; we are just now aquiring tents and backpacks to rent at no cost, to boys, (and if any leftover, to parents), who have no equipment yet. This is so that parents don't drop a load of money and then find out that their boy hates backpacking after all.

We have a Troop Quartermaster (boy) who picks up the stuff from storage, (wonderful adult nearbye our meeting place with garage space). The Patrol Quartermasters come to his table and check out what they need for the campout. (On the last day of the campout, the entire patrol is responsible for cleaning up the equipment and making note of what needs to be replaced. This last one is always dicey, but hey, anything with boys cleaning always is, right?)

Boys provide their own messkit, we teach them to keep it inexpensive and simple, a bowl, cup and spoon are usually all that is necessary, plastic is best. Coolwhip bowls are great because they don't weigh much at all and no one cares what happens to them. You are already carrying a pocket knife. And please forget those rediculas metal messkits, too heavy, waste of money.”

“This last one is always dicey, but hey, anything with boys cleaning always is, right?

Amen sister. Tell it.”

“New here. Some background: Eagle Scout, Scoutmaster for past 6 months. Very small troop (4-6 active guys).

I had to laugh when I read about your OLS experience. I took OLS last fall and, even though it was [b]outdoor[b] leader skills, they held almost all of it [b]indoors![b] Most of the same topics were covered as listed above, although we did have a class on gear. The guy teaching the class is the advisor of a Venturing crew. He was very knowledgeable about backpacking and appropriate gear for small boys.

Here's my problem/issue. The Venturing crew associated with my Troop has been selected to send a crew to Philmont next summer. I signed up to be one of the adults as I have never been to Philmont. Well, the advisor of that crew is moving and, although he still plans to go on the trip, he has handed the responsibilities for planning this trip to me.

I have never been backpacking in my entire life. Even though, as I said, I'm an Eagle Scout, my troop was the typical car camping troop. I'm very excited to learn, but am a bit overwhelmed with this. We have one dad in the troop who is pretty knowledgeable about backpacking (has completed most of the Arizona trail, numerous GC trips, and is training for a future App Trail trip) and he has offered his help when possible.

Anyway, being here in Arizona, we have plenty of opportunities for dayhikes and longer backpacking trips. I plan to start hiking as much as possible and taking the boys at least once a month.

I'm glad I found this site and all these knowledgable people to get advice from.”

“An Eagle Scout with no backpacking experience? Tsk.

;)”

“WOW ASUDave, how did that happen? Well, anything you want to know, just ask, everyone here has been great to me. You are fortunate to be in a state with multiple places to practice.”

“Well, as you know, I'm sure, nowhere is backpacking a requirement for Eagle. :) Our troop just didn't do it. They actually used to do the Boundary Waters, but quit just before I turned 14.”

“Hey ASUDave, get yourself a little gear, rent a pack and such from REI and go shakeyourselfdown on a short overnight trip somewhere to get yourself acclimated. Then gradually step up a notch or two.

Ask questions here - these guys'll help ya out.

Email me (or others) I'm an Eagle as well, so are several others here.

You'll do fine.”