What would you do?

“Y2 knows what he's talking about! The English saw too many executions so everyone over there knows killing is wrong. Thus, the English no longer need to "execute"

Maybe we should Behead convicted murderers?

Why is it called "beheading"? Shouldn't it be "Deheading"?”

“If I were the Governor of California, I would probably sign the death warrant. But I'm a Democrat and I'd want to look tough on crime.

But the death penalty should be mostly abolished because it costs too much. It's dependent on a human court system that makes errors. And the rare nature of the death penalty ends up giving way too much attention to people who don't deserve it.

However, it should not be completely abolished. The president should get five opportunities per year to invoke create a capital trial for political reasons. That way we could execute a Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden if we catch them and want to prevent political problems down the road.

BTW, this particular guy probably deserves the death penalty even more because of the control he seems to exert on people outside the prison walls.”

“It's not murder, BM, it's it's using the law to make people pay for crimes they committed.

Webster's definition: "Murder: To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with pre-meditated malice"

What they're (hopefully) doing to Tookie Williams on Tuesday is not un-lawful, it is indeed carrying out the law.

If you don't believe in capital punishment, fine, then lobby your elected officials to change the law. But until then, the law is the law. You can't pick & choose which ones you'll obey.”

“This dude probably deserves to be thrown into a pit full of hungery wolves.

I feel as though death penalty convictions are too prone to error and think it should be abolished.”

“Semantics wanderer2. Makes everyone feel better.

Plus, look how everyone gets so worked up. I would call it "pre-meditated malice". ;)

Eye for an eye, revenge.

If it's not done with "malice" than what antonym would you use:

benevolent, friendly, good, kind, likeable, sympathetic, thoughtful. ?????

:D”

““I don't believe in State sponsored murder.”
bearmagnet
3:37:16 PM
12/11/05

What about state sponsored killing?

I don't think you'll find anybody who wants state sponsored murder.”

“Has nothing to do with semantics, has everything to do with using the correct word to describe the action, the idea being that it is important to take "emotionalism" out of the debate as the prime reason for a decision - understand facts.

Kinda' like certain segments of the "women's rights" crowd using the term "Freedom of Choice" to describe an abortion, which many would call murder. It's just as easy to call it murder as it is "choice", just depend which sode of the fence you sit on.

Be consistent.


Death-penalty opponents usually point to the "Innocence" study that claimed a 68% error rate.

In reality, the error rate is ZERO.


Here's a brief C&P from an article in the WSJ awhile back that looked at the details, not just the headlines, of the study.
At one level, the report is a dog-bites-man story. It is well known that the Supreme Court has mandated a system of super due process for the death penalty. An obvious consequence of this extraordinary caution is that capital sentences are more likely to be reversed than lesser sentences are. The widely trumpeted statistic in the report -- the 68% "error rate" in capital cases -- might accordingly be viewed as a reassuring sign of the judiciary's circumspection before imposing the ultimate sanction.

The 68% factoid, however, is quite deceptive. For starters, it has nothing to do with "wrong man" mistakes -- that is, cases in which an innocent person is convicted for a murder he did not commit. Indeed, missing from the media coverage was the most critical statistic: After reviewing 23 years of capital sentences, the study's authors (like other researchers) were unable to find a single case in which an innocent person was executed. Thus, the most important error rate -- the rate of mistaken executions -- is zero.”

“"If it's not done with "malice" than what antonym would you use:

benevolent, friendly, good, kind, likeable, sympathetic, thoughtful."


Here's another word yopu can consider adding to your vocabulary, BM, JUSTICE. This scum broke the law, he is supposed to pay the appropriate price.”

“Fair enough on the emotion. I'll say this then:

I don't believe in State Sponsored Killing.

Does that work?

One other thing - Taking the "emotionalism" out of it makes killing too easy. It should never be easy, IMHO.

And they should never be allowed to use Lethal Injection.
last edited: 12/11/05 4:49:24 PM”

“It is never easy BM, that's why it takes 23 years to get a convicted scum like Williams to actually go to the chair... appeal after appeal after appeal, with lawyers paid for by you & me, the taxpayers. This guy, as with every convicted murderer, gets every possible consideration.

In fact, that's why there has NEVER been one documented case where we carried out the death penaly on the wrong guy.”

“I don't believe in State Sponsored Killing. - bearmagnet

Trust me. It exists.”

“I think if someone is convicted of murder, and there is no doubt they did it, then they should die the same way their victims died. If there is any doubt at all, then they get life.”

“if there is any doubt at all, they get acquited”

“http://www.innocenceproject.org/case/display_profile.php?id=21

"Thus, the most important error rate -- the rate of mistaken executions -- is zero."

That is difficult to believe given the emotional nature of many prosecutions and investigations of capital crimes.

Many investigators decide that they "like" a certain suspect, like Bloodsworth, and ignore crucial evidence to the contrary, much like the way that junk science begins with a conclusion and seaches for evidence to support that foregone conclusion.”

“The actual killing has been made to be "too easy".

NOBODY has been wrongly killed by The State? I believe there was one just documented in good ole Virginy.”

“I guess what I mean is if there are witnesses to the crime, then fry 'em, but if the evidence is circumstancial then give 'em life.
I watched a documentary a while ago about executions. This one guy was doing his own investigations on people accussed of murder and checking crime records going waaaaay back. He claimed there have been many innocent people executed.
last edited: 12/11/05 5:21:41 PM”

“"He claimed", "she claimed", "I feel" (instead of thinking, or providing facts)...

Whole bunch of anecdotal stuff, story-telling, emotionalism, etc., when this is a serious subject.

EVERY time a serious study has been commissionsed (I'm not talking about a Television show!), not once has anyone come up with a single case of a wrongful execution, to my knowledge.”

“The United States reinstated capital punishment in 1976. Since then 229 inmates have been granted clemency. These grants of clemency have declined over the past 25 years, with about 1,000 death-row inmates having sought it and 229 receiving it. Of those, 167 came from one governor in one act in 2000: former Gov. George Ryan of Illinois, who called the death-penalty system in his state "arbitrary and capricious and therefore immoral." His action has since been excoriated by victims' families and lawmakers, even as it is lauded by death-penalty opponents. For the other 15 governors the list of reasons is short why they gave such pardons, they cited just three reasons: lingering doubt about guilt, a governor's own philosophical opposition to the death penalty, and mental disability of the accused.”

“Here is my take on it. If this guy did al these things and was justly convicted and retried in appeals courts ad nauseum and still re convicted etc.... Basically proven over and over again that he did it, then give him the death penalty. I think it is sad that it had to proven over and over again.

Anyways, on to the line that he has reformed and been born again and has done so much good and blah, blah, blah.... (Actually, I don't know that he was "born again", but for purposes of this discussion...). He has comitted a crime. There is retribution due. He will die in a far less violent manner than his victims, so I doubt the punishment fits the crime. He should die similarly as his victims. (Personal opinion). Sure, he may be doing good things. But he still has to pay the piper, IMO. Born again or not, he should understand that.”

“Sunday, December 11, 2005
Saddam Hussein To Write Children's Book To Escape Execution
12/8/2005 - Shelby Trial

Simon & Schuster is negotiating a $12M book deal with Saddam Hussein to pen up to four children's books. Writing under the pen name of "The Butcher of Baghdad" Saddam will use his unique sense humor to teach Iraqi children the deadly consequences of installing collaborating with infidels. The books will contain actual photos from his torture rooms and his own illustrations of new torture methods conceived during his two-year incarceration. Saddam is optimistic that these books will have the same affect on American liberals as those written by Pookie Williams and gain him a reprieve from his date with the executioner. "Kill 4 or 400,000, what's the difference? In my case I wasn't the one pulling the trigger, it was those out of control boys of mine, Qusay and Utay. You know, kinda like "Growing up Gotti'", said Hussein.
Not unlike Pookie, rumors abound that Howard Dean and Sean Penn are considering nominating Saddam for the Nobel Peace prize as a means to force President Bush to grant clemency. Upon hearing these rumors, Saddam volunteered to place himself under suicide watch.”

“HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

I started readin' this post & said to myself , WTF????

OBVIOUSLY, I take things WAYYY too serious :)

Bazooka Joe, you da' man!”

“Wanderer - No. I believe a Virginian was shown to be wrongly executed. I'm not pulling this out-o-me ass and I believe it's from a "legit" source.

This is all kind of besides my point. I just don't believe in it. How's that?”

“BM - I said above,

"If you don't believe in capital punishment, fine, then lobby your elected officials to change the law. But until then, the law is the law. You can't pick & choose which ones you'll obey.”

This thread, in some respects, is not about whether one belives in capital punishment or not, it's about obeying the law.

The Law is that this guy should be executed.

If you want to cahnge the law, fine... how many times do I have to say that??? Just lobby your elected officials & have it done.”

“If God didn't want us to kill people to teach that murder is wrong, he wouldn't threaten us with Hell to teach us to forgive and be kind to each other.”

“The Law is not "this guy should be executed." If it were, we would not be discussing it.

And thanks, we don't kill prisoners where I live. I just wish the rest of the Country would follow us.

And since this thread is titled "What would you do" I thought my answer was appropriate and all that is needed. I respect everyones opinion in this matter. Just wanted to give mine.”

“Private's post: "If God didn't want us to kill people to teach that murder is wrong, he wouldn't threaten us with Hell to teach us to forgive and be kind to each other"

Response: I have absoluitley no idea what in the hell you're talking about, and I doubt anyone else does either. This thread isn't about God, and I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say GOD is "threatening:" us?

Learn to communicate, come back later, OK?”

“Cutesy response, BearMagent. We don't kill prisoners where I live, either. We terminate the lives of killers who have been proven, beyond a shadow of doubt, to be the scum of the the universe!

We obey the law, the LAW says "This guy is supposed to die", (those are not the excact words), so we will follow thru.

He did the crime, he has to pay the price, he was convicted, he needs to fry / die.

For the millioneth time, if you don't like the law, then get it changed, that's what our system of government is all about.”

“Yeah, you don't need to repeat yourself.

You are a passionate debater.

Enjoy”

“private - God wants you to forgive and be kind to one another regardless of your desire to reject Him from your life, and consequently, all of eternity.”

“bearmagnet - If you don't believe in it, then why are you arguing against it?

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to go around like "Stop Santa Claus! He's a bad man!"”

“Clemency denied.”

“Free Tootie Now!!!
Free Tootie Now!!!
Free Tootie Now!!!”

“Nannie nannie boo boo, HPM.
I beat you by 12:53 with the news.
See the Free Tootie Now!!! thread.”

“Ahrnold needs to post here.”

“Doesnt the thread title say what would YOU do?
i would try NOT to be the one to be in the position to have to decide!

If I HAD to decide ... I doubt that I would choose the death penalty. I do not believe it is an effective deterrent to crime. Even though it is the law.

So, Bearmagnet, I think I am standing close to your position, just because it IS the law does not mean it is the right thing to do.

The influence on the next generation is already happening... and it is not good.”

“So lobby to have the law changed, that's the beauty of Democracy, you guys.

He brutally killed 4 people, he (arguably) founded / promoted the whole gang warfare thing which has cost countless lives...

I wouldn't want to be in the Governator's position, but I do think he did the right thing.

The world is not a perfect, idealistic place. In the idealistic world, I am also against Capital Punishment. Sure wish I lived there :(, but I don't.”

“http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/14/dna.virginia.ap.ap/index.html

This isn't what you were refering to bearmagnet, but it does show the potential for errors in the system in Virginia.”