Prove to me your Religion is Right

“What's the point of asking for proof?

Belief in a Christian God is about faith. You either believe or you don't, there is no proof.

This ends today's lesson.”

“See ya in Buffalo!”

“Who says you can't have proof?”

“The point BM is to rely on faith, if you had proof there'd be no need for faith, and consequently there would no longer be any point.”

“

Farther out than inevitable,
Howard be thy name
Sky King is come, and Wilma's done,
Uncertain as it is uneven
Give us this day hors d'oevres in bed,
And forgive those who have dressed up against us
For wine is the shingle,
And amor,
And a story for your father.
 
 ALL RIGHT!!


 (John Hartford)

”

“world might be a nicer place if we had proof.”

“sarge, who says the bible is right. Different religions had different bibles. It doesn't make them wrong. If you can't recongize that other religions God could be the same one you worship then you are the close minded one. I am open minded enough to realize that could be fact. Ewker

Are you serious? How could other religions' God be the same one I worship? The one I worship is from the Christian Bible. If he isn't Jesus, he isn't my God.

On that note, non-Christians tend to use a different standard of logic when discussing Christianity than they do for anything else.”

“In fact, option D is consistent with Jewish tradition regarding Jesus, which holds that Jesus never professed to be the messiah, although others would make this claim for him. It may be for this reason that Jesus almost3 never claims to be the messiah throughout the New Testament. - From Thrifty's posted quote

Almost never claims to be the messiah?

That says it all right there.”

“If you can't recongize that other religions God could be the same one you worship then you are the close minded one. I am open minded enough to realize that could be fact. - Ewker

Have you always held that belief, or has your belief changed over time?

My belief has changed over time, so I believe I am open minded. Maybe you think I'm closed minded because I don't believe what you believe? The fact is, my mind and my heart are in fact open to new ideas. If they weren't, I wouldn't be a Christian today.”

“I have to agree with Sarge here Ewker, the Bible makes clear that there is only one God, and that he has no other names or testaments. If you are a Christian you are professing faith in that. There is a big difference between professing faith in something and being closed minded.”

“Bison and Sarge, neither one of you know if that is the right bible, different religions have diferent bibles but they can still be about the same God you worship in your bible. Just because you think you are right doesn't mean you are.”

“Which bible do the Jews use?”

“No Ewker they cannot be the same God. Sorry but you're a little lost on that one. Could we be wrong, could the God of the Christian Bible not be the one true God? Sure, I don't personally believe that it is not, but believing that it is, is part of Faith.

But the God of the Christian bible cannot possibly be the same God worshiped by other religions.

Try reading the Bible, Ewker.”

“ditto what Bison said”

“why can't they Bison? You have said nothing to prove otherwise. I am suppose to take your word..don't think so. Reading one bible doesn't mean it is right, being one religion doesn't mean it is right either.”

“Ewker - Do you think you are right?

If not, why are you arguing so adamantly on this?

If so, don't you think that's hypocritical?”

“Ewker - The different religions DO NOT profess the same God. To argue they might shows you haven't read their Bibles.

It's like saying the characters in Star Wars could be the same as the ones in Star Trek. It's absurd ... how do you debate somebody with that type of mentality?”

“not doing anything different than you”

“Because Ewker, the Bible makes clear that the God whose word it is has no other testaments and is called by no other names, as I stated before. Ergo the God of any other religion cannot be the same God.

This isn't all that hard to understand.”

“Ewker - There are whole stories in the Christian Bible about how people are NOT to worship other Gods, because they are not true Gods.

You really should read the Bible before arguing against it IMO.”

“and other bibles are wrong?? so those folks are worshipping a false God eh. Every stop to think they think the same about you.”

“not doing anything different than you - Ewker

Why won't you simply answer the question. You are making this about being right, so ... Do you think you're right?

I think considering the line of your arugment that is a perfectly legitimate question for me to ask you.”

“and other bibles are wrong?? so those folks are worshipping a false God eh. Every stop to think they think the same about you.

Ewker - I am not concerned about what other people think. I am concerned about what God says in His Word. In His Word, He says that there are no other Gods but Him. If He were the same god as in other religions, He wouldn't have said that, would he? No.”

“Yes, Ewker I am saying that a person who has faith in the Christian Bible is saying exactly that.

What you are saying is that someone who has that faith should accept that the Christian God could be the same as say the Muslim God.

But the Bible makes very clear that it cannot be the same God. So you're not making a whole lot of sense.

If you want to say that the Christian God is not the true God, that's fine.

But you can't expect someone who has faith in Christianity to accept that the Christian God is the same as any other God becuase the Christian faith specifically prescribes against such a belief.”

“never said I was arguing against the bible did I? All you are doing is throwing out what you have been brought up by. People of different religions have been brought up believing something else. It doesn't make them wrong or you right. Seems you don't want to believe that another religion's God could be the same God.”

“Ewker - Use some simple logic for a moment.

If God in the Christian Bible is "God".

And God in Bible 'Y' is "God".

Then why would God in the Christian Bible say that He is the only God, and worshipping any other God is wrong?

Did He forget for a moment He wasn't other Gods?

On top of that ... He also said that He was the only way. i.e. "Jesus" - "The ONLY way"

Did He forget there were other ways?
last edited: 12/01/05 10:25:20 PM”

“4 gunshots followed by 2 gunshots. Cop sirens within 2 minutes. Not bad.”

“What I'm saying Ewker is that there is a very good reason for that.

It's because the God of the Bible says that he/she/it is the ONLY God, and that there is no other God and that he/she/it is not worshiped by any other name or religious tradition.

So you can't profess faith in that God and accept that the God of another religion could be the same God. You would be going against God's own words.

The argument on this side isn't that we are right in believing in that God. It is only that it is not possible that the God of the Bible is the God of any other religion, because the God of the Bible expressly states that he/she/it is not.”

“do you not recongize that there are other bibles. Do you think all these bibles will say the same thing. Nope they won't. They all have there own God's word, his word in their eyes. Does that make them wrong. That is very simple to follow”

“But that's not what you were arguing earlier Ewker.

Could other religions be correct and Christianity be wrong? Sure.

What you were saying is that the God of Christianity could be the same exact God. And that simply cannot be the case.”

“Ewker - The answer to your question is in my question above, if you'd just answer it.

Did he forget that he was other gods in other Bibles?

Why won't you respond to that simple and fair question?”

“Bison, yes he/she/it can

God didn't write the bible..people did
last edited: 12/01/05 10:32:35 PM”

“He can what? You're fading on us Ewker. Stay with us. He can what?”

“Then answer me this Ewker,

Why does he/she/it make clear in the Christian Bible that he/she/it IS NOT the same as the God of any other religion?

It makes perfect sense to say that the God of the Christian Bible isn't really God.

But it makes no sense whatsoever to state the the God of the Christian Bible is the same God as the God of the Koran. He/she/it has already made clear that he/she/it isn't the same God.
last edited: 12/01/05 10:35:19 PM”

“Is not the Jewish God of the Old Testement, Dammit!!??”

““Which bible do the Jews use?”

The Jews use the Tanack which is the five books of the Torah with the prophets and the writings. The Tanack and the Christian old testiment (I prefer original testiment) have the same books in them and are for the most part the same. But there are differences. Big differences. Here is an article about Torah accuracy compared to Christian writings…
“What are the results? The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, a book written to prove the validity of the New Testament, says: " A study of 150 Greek [manuscripts] of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings... It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the [manuscript] is wholly uniform."
Other scholars report there are some 200,000 variants in the existing manuscripts of the New Testament, representing about 400 variant readings which cause doubt about textual meaning; 50 of these are of great significance.
The Torah has nine spelling variants -- with absolutely no effect on the meaning of the words. The Christian Bible has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances the variants change the meaning of the text.”

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/torahaccuracy.htm”

“All this talk about faith and emotional belief is all well and good but it can only take one so far. All the faith and emotional dependency can’t change reality. Me, I love centaurs. Now if I love centaurs to the point that I have faith they exist and I can feel it in my very being that they exist, does this mean they exist? Even though there is absolutely no evidence they ever did exist? No. I’m not saying that faith is stupid. We need faith. But at the same time we must temper our emotions with reason. The bible demands it of us and we are commanded to test the things we are presented with. Devarim 13 and 18 require us to test the prophets.

Here’s a link that I don’t suggest is for everyone but if ya really wanna know, be my guest:

Why the Jews reject Jesus”

“"God didn't write the bible..people did"

last edited: 12/01/05 9:32:35 PM
Ewker
9:30:43 PM
12/01/05

Again you seem to completely miss the point Ewker. Part of belief in a Christian God is the belief that the Bible is his Word, therefore what it says is infallible, so once again, if that is true, then the God of the Christian Bible cannot be the same as the God of any other religion.”

“"therefore what it says is infallible,"

What if there are mistakes, misquotes or inconsistancies?”

“I’m not saying that faith is stupid. We need faith. But at the same time we must temper our emotions with reason

ditto, god gave us a brain to use...to follow anyone's teachings blindly is just ignorance...you should question everything you hear/read and ask why is it that way and how can i change it for the better...i do not believe in blind faith...blind faith is what those who have no other hope and don't think for themselves cling to

centaurs: One of a race of monsters having the head, arms, and trunk of a man and the body and legs of a horse.

i learn a new word everyday on here ;)
last edited: 12/02/05 7:56:08 AM”

“kinda funny how the printing press wasn't around until 1500 AD.

so for a loooong time the entire bible was hand written, copied, and translated by simple, failable, regular ol' dudes like you or me.

but i guess it's impossible for man to make a mistake when writing about god.”

“Look up troglodyte. There’s a few of those around here.”

“Part of belief in a Christian God is the belief that the Bible is his Word, therefore what it says is infallible, so once again, if that is true, then the God of the Christian Bible cannot be the same as the God of any other religion.

That's pretty simple, really. Abondon reason for faith, and that makes perfect sense. For the rest of us, Ewker makes perfect sense.”

“"What if there are mistakes, misquotes or inconsistancies?"

Nigal
6:49:23 AM
12/02/05

IF you believe it is the Word of God then there aren't any. Mistakes, misquotes, or inconsistancies that you find come from your faulty reading or interpretation not from a problem with the text.

Remember that the point here is viewing it from the perspective of someone who believes vs. someone who doesn't.

But the overall basic point in relation to Ewker's assertion is that it is not possible that IF the God of Christianity is the one true God that he/she/it is the same God as the God of any other religion. The God of the Christian Bible specifically states that his Word is infallible and that he is not the same as the God of any other religion. Could you argue that perhaps that is a faulty interpretation? Maybe, but while there is plenty of room for debate on much of what is in the Bible, that part is pretty clear so you wouldn't have much of an argument to make.
last edited: 12/02/05 8:06:36 AM”

“If you believe it is the Word of God then there aren't any. Mistakes, misquotes, or inconsistancies that you find come from your faulty reading or interpretation not from a problem with the text.


bison, what about all those guys translating and copying the bible for all those years. you don't think that just maybe they were not perfect?”

“Sacco, part of that belief is that those who did the interpretation did so under the inspiration of God, so his Word is consistent, again it's part of having faith, you have faith also that the Word is consistent across those translations, and any problems you find in that chain are a part of your own faulty reasoning, not a problem with the chain of copying or translation.

Of course there are exceptions to that and there are translations that are not accepted by some believers, but again, in that case, it is a question of faith, what you choose to believe as far as what you accept, and what you reject when it comes to Biblical translations.”

“"Ewker makes perfect sense."

Mutt
6:59:56 AM
12/02/05

Ok I'll spell this out one more time for you, Mutt.

A. The God of the Bible states that his word is infallible.

B. His Word states that he is the one true God and is not the God of any other religion.

Ergo, he cannot be the God of any other religion.

Again, it is fine to go ahead and make the argument that the God of the Bible is not the true God, just as it is fine to say it's all make believe yada, yada, yada.

It's not so reasonable to make the argument that the God of the Bible, IF he is the one true God, is the same as the God of other religions, because the God of the Bible has specifically stated that he is not.
last edited: 12/02/05 8:19:45 AM”

“Bison, you keep bringing things up about the Bible you read saying it is the only way it can be. Now what if you were brought up being taught by another bible and that God. You would believe the same as you do now except by a different bible.

All I am saying is that all these different Gods could be the same one but go by different names.

I guess in your mind these other people who believe different than you are going to each bible's equivalent of hell. I don't believe that.”

“It's kind of putting the cart before the horse Bison.

In Acts 7:55 when Stephen made his impassioned speech before he was stoned it tells us he was full of the Holy Spirit. But during his speech he says:

Acts 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to [him], and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls. (KJV)

How can this be? Looking back in the Ot we find that:

Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, [were] two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, [were] threescore and ten. (KJV)

Exodus 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt [already]. (KJV)

Deuteronomy 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy G-d hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude. (KJV)

Then we find in 7:16 he says:

Acts 7:16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem. (KJV)

But again, going back to the OT and even the Jewish Artscroll Edition we find he is again mistaken:

Genesis 50:13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a burying place of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre. (KJV)

Genesis 50:13 His sons carried him to the land of Canaan and they buried him in the cave of the Machpelah field, the field that Abraham had bought as a burial estate from Ephron the Hittite, facing Mamre. (Artscroll)

And this was when he was under the influence of the Holy Spirit. So who was wrong? Stephen? The Holy Spirit which is held to be G-d Himself? Or the guy writing it down?

I do not say this to try to prove you wrong or even get a responce for it but simply to explain why some people don't just simply go along with what is taught to them. This is the type of reasonable tempering I spoke of. Not even my beloved Torah is devoid of a few minor misquotes.”

“Let me try and interject here. All viewpoints expressed have some validitiy. I see what Bison is trying to say. For him (and I think, Sarge, too), the word of their chosen bible is the word of God and that is carved in stone, FOR THEM! The bold part is the key. It's for them. Not Ewker, obviously. He is saying that there are all these versions of the bible and all these different factions are saying the same thing. This is the word of God, FOR ME! Again, this is personalized and internalized. Sacco also is correct about fallability. but, when it comes to the reasoning that was given above, fallability does't enter into the picture. Their belief is that it's exactly what it reads. Ewker is asking which one is right. Right for everyone or right for Bison and Sarge? That's where the differences come in.

Now, I will pose a further question and try to tie these views together. Accepting that the bible of choice for Bison (for example) is the gospel for him, where does the choice come from that he decided to settle on that particular bible and that particular sect of religion? Was it a result of being passed down from his parents' beliefs? Ancestor's beliefs? Or did he comparison shop by reading many or all other versions of the bible from other religions and sects and settle on this one?

I already know the answer because God talks to me...”